Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions

Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions

Personally I like the Volt model, run on electric all the time but get the source from batteries till depleted then a generator. I hear some people have driven them a couple thousand miles on the first smallish tank of gas, if they are in a position to recharge regularly.

I wonder if they couldn't use Nat Gas instead on the generator motor, home refilling station.

Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions

In CA - IMO the Nissan LEAF is a no brainer as you can get the $7500 fed tax credit and $5000 state rebate reducing the price to the low $20k range. There is also the EV Project which will pay for either all or a substantial portion of your @home charging equipment and installation in exchange or giving them information on your driving/charging habits.

The problem is that Nissan has so much demand that they've stopped taking orders (the earthquake and tsunami have further delayed production as well), so it may be some time before you can get one. The CA rebate is only currently funded for about another 1200 EVs - what will happen after that is anyone's guess but it's been suggested that the rebate will be cut in half or so.

I have been waiting for mine for almost a year now (put a $99 reservation last April 20th) - car should be delivered some time in May. Nissan's unique ordering scheme also prevent dealer gouging - I ordered mine at $1000 less than MSRP.

The EPA rates the LEAF as having 73 mi range - which seems fairly accurate for most people - but if you do mostly city driving and are careful with the throttle/brake you can get much more.

Other plug-in vehicles currently in production:

Chevy Volt - demand is also high for this car - unless you are willing to pay substantially over MSRP it will be some months before you can get one. The Volt is also substantially more expensive than the LEAF and doesn't qualify for the CA rebate because it's emissions when burning gas are too high. If you are a single car household - it's probably the best option at this point.

Tesla Roadster - If you can afford it and only need 2 seats - get it!

Coming plug-in vehicles:

Ford Focus EV - Very similar in specs to the LEAF. Less trunk space. Going into production late this year.

Tesla Model S - Luxury car - think BMW 5 series. Will have 3 different battery packs to choose from depending on how much range you want (and how much you're willing to pay). Deliveries should start around this time next year.

Toyota Prius PHEV - The prototypes they've shown off have limited EV range (about 12 miles). But it should be the lowest cost plug-in vehicle.


Other options:

Could always get a hybrid - the Honda Insight isn't selling well so you can get it for very cheap. Perhaps leasing one would be an idea if you just want to hold out a couple years for plug-ins to get more affordable and for more options to be availalble.

Or you could keep your Accord - but you didn't mention what kind of fuel economy you get in it and how much you actually drive it...

Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions

too bad we don't have people here that have these vehicles to give direct feedback on them. these are pricey for their abilities and i can understand bill's hesitation on making a decision.

i also resent a commercial i saw for the volt which implied gm was for and on the cutting edge of the ev seeing as 1> evs were around before or at least at the same time as gasoline driven cars were and 2> they leave the impression they were involved in the invention of this type of vehicle all the while when years back they were among those that killed the electric car even to kill a previous prototype they issued.

i also question the high price set forth for these vehicles by the large car manufacturers. i know some offsetting of initial design costs will need to be done, but imho it should've been absorbed by the rest of the gasoline car prices/industry if they are serious in this alternative that is needed to offset dependence on foreign oil and those questionable governments that have that oil. is this a way to keep us dependent on gasoline type cars is to keep the price prohibitive? are they also trying to force the government to create the incentive so as to keep profits extra high for themselves making it an indirect bailout? for most people they won't spend $30,000 and up for a vehicle that has limited range and a guaranteed high maintenance cost in the near future when a gasoline counterpart is available with many often under $15,000. this keeps most people away from the ev altogether and hybrids are an expensive compromise.

even those who have the money and want one are very hesitant or confused as to what to do and it's no wonder why. many are willing to do it even to go beyond their means by conviction and belief that this is the way to go, but there's little feedback from the few owners that there may be out there and let's face it, company hype isn't worth a ****. those having made the decision are in limbo and are made to wait. it makes me wonder of the seriousness of car manufacturers, at least in this country, and our government had to just about twist their arms to move forth with evs.

don't pay too much attention to me editorializing here as i say these things to just kick out some of my thoughts and i'm sure i've hit on the nerve of several aspects of the ev industry.:-)

Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions

BB. wrote: »

There is always the issue that in a few years the "government" is going to go with GPS or other miles driven based vehicle taxes because none of the electric cars are paying fuel taxes. -Bill

Considering that in 2009 US gasoline tax was 45.6 cents per gallon, gasoline car equivalent to Nissan Leaf would be paying about $190 in gasoline taxes per year. (15000 miles / 36 m.p.g. * $0.456 = $190) It is really not that expensive to pay that every year when re-registering your EV. And no GPS privacy big-brother issues either. Anything different (more expensive) proposed by the govt. should be viewed with high suspicion.

Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions

niel wrote: »

too bad we don't have people here that have these vehicles to give direct feedback on them. these are pricey for their abilities and i can understand bill's hesitation on making a decision.

Well, I can give direct feedback on a Prius with a Hymotion conversion kit installed. Since Bill is in CA though, he might want to double-check because I think the Hymotion kits are no longer legally able to be installed there.

But, for me here in Florida, it has been great. I converted a 2006 Prius, which was purchased new in 2006. It was converted in 7/2009. Florida had a $5K rebate for the conversion (note: this rebate is specifically stated to reduce the cost basis and is not considered income by the IRS). So the cost for the kit ended up being about $5K. There was also a 10% Federal tax credit too, for the cost basis of the kit.

You could get a used Prius for about $12K, add a Hymotion kit for $10K, and still end up much less than many, many new (and used) cars. A Prius with proper maintenance should run just about forever. Eventually you might have to replace the main hybrid battery, but even that isn't cost prohibitive due to salvage Prius availability.

Since converting, it will get about 125 mpg to 150 mpg. I could boost it up to about 300 mpg, as others at PriusChat have done, with some further modifications. It is incredibly spectacular to drive. Extremely quiet and peaceful driving. It was the next logical step, now with PV and the ability to recharge a vehicle, we are that much closer to energy independence.

I believe that in CA there are other Prius PHEV conversions available, such as PICC, but that is slightly more pricey at $13,500. But you can then go 70 mph on pure electric, and with a 25 mile EV range. The Hymotion range is about 20 miles. In San Francisco the range for any electric would be diminished because hills take so much energy from an EV.

Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions

sub3marathonman wrote: »

I converted a 2006 Prius, which was purchased new in 2006. It was converted in 7/2009. Florida had a $5K rebate for the conversion .

That really cool sub! didn't know your Pruis was plugin!

Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions

cool, lots of great input.

sg,
you did some homework there. i guess you bring the costs more to light for me, but i probably won't be buying an ev or hybrid as i'd never trust one on the used market. this could be another consideration though. i don't know if your bringing the costs into focus (pun not intended) was any help to bill or not as he has had plans for an ev for years.

sub3,
i was referring to evs there as few people have them and they don't seem to be here. it is interesting what you had done though. seeing as how most of us don't live in florida, what was the real cost to the modification?

general,
as i stated in the past that when it comes to taxes you will get it in the end sooner or later. it really doesn't seem right that those that go out on a limb with extra costs and upkeep for these vehicles that are swaying our country away from oil dependence should be insulted with their representatives' greed to further gouge their constituents. yes, roads need done, but really they need to see the bigger picture and figure something else out that's more amicable to all. from what i have seen many states aren't putting all of that $ into the roads anyway and they certainly can't blame that on evs or hybrids.

i question if it is fair for an extra annual fee of $100 as in wa as they are saying you will put at least 6k miles on it a year as that is about 1/2 of the estimated 12k miles and about half the road costs proposed. this may not be the case for short ranged evs. i would probably benefit greatly from an ev as i do not travel far most times, with a rare 90 miles 1 way for my father in law as the exception. in fact, i and my wife do not put many miles on a car at all as it is all close in driving and it would be less than 5k per year. yes, we defy the average here, but evs may not follow that same average as their gasoline counterparts either and that is my point.

Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions

here is a couple more:
http://motors.shop.ebay.com/Cars-Trucks-/6001/i.html?_nkw=chevrolet+volt&_catref=1&_dmpt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&_fln=1&_trksid=p4506.c0.m282

Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions

solar_dave wrote: »

here is a couple more:
http://motors.shop.ebay.com/Cars-Trucks-/6001/i.html?_nkw=chevrolet+volt&_catref=1&_dmpt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&_fln=1&_trksid=p4506.c0.m282

I dont think you can get the 7500 tax credit on a used volt

I think im going to hold out for the ford focus and the 7500 rebate

Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions

If you want to read more about the Leaf and Volt from actual owners, best thing to do is to head to their respective forums:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/
http://www.gm-volt.com/

Aside from a few issues which are fairly typical with brand new cars - most people seem to absolutely love them.

As far as charging costs - if you don't generate an excess of electricity from your PV system, the way to go is to get a 2nd meter and use the special EV TOU rates for charging and do all your charging off-peak.

If you generate an excess of electricity (or are fairly close over the year), switching to whole-house TOU and charging at super-off-peak rates will probably still leave you with extra generation credits.

I wish I had accurate time/use energy information so I could make an educated estimate of how my bill would change by changing from a regular DR-net metered schedule to a TOU schedule. The main thing that worries me is that peak TOU rates extend well past sundown - I think 8-9pm.

Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions

I have heard of several reliability problems, but hard to say how common they actually are, as bad news tends to spread more than good.

One thing for sure is that sales do not seem to be anywhere near what the government/green pundits predicted.

March 4, 2011 — Sales of Chevrolet’s Volt were down 40 units in February compared to January sales, according to the company’s monthly sales report.
GM sold 321 of the new plug-in hybrid electric vehicles in January and 281 in February. The numbers were released shortly after GM announced plans to make the Volt available nationwide by the end of the year.

That could be for any number of reasons, but price seems to be the main sticking point.

These cars probably make sense in an urban environment in dense cities, but in cities like Phoenix and Los Angeles, where commutes can be pretty long, maybe not so much.

Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions

Solar Guppy wrote: »

Wow, reading over at the leaf forums, they are having wide spread issues with the cars refusing to start.

If this get national press it could kill the car for sure

Meh - not discouraging me from getting mine at all. Minor hiccup and to be expected with a new car. I'm sure the engineers in Japan are all over it. The problem seems to be isolated with recently delivered cars - you can be sure they'll be addressing the issue before delivering any more.

Windsun wrote: »

I have heard of several reliability problems, but hard to say how common they actually are, as bad news tends to spread more than good.

Yep - one thing you'll find is that there's a lot more problem reports than no-problem reports in general on the web.

Windsun wrote: »

One thing for sure is that sales do not seem to be anywhere near what the government/green pundits predicted.

That could be for any number of reasons, but price seems to be the main sticking point.

Biggest issue right now is production. Nissan/GM seem to be selling all the Leafs / Volts they can at this point. Of course, there is a lot of pent up demand right now - it will be more telling after the cars have been selling for a year or so and you can get one in any state instead of one of the limited number of launch markets.

Windsun wrote: »

These cars probably make sense in an urban environment in dense cities, but in cities like Phoenix and Los Angeles, where commutes can be pretty long, maybe not so much.

I disagree. Phoenix / LA are some of the biggest markets for plug-ins - both are included in the initial launch markets. With all the traffic LA has, it's just about ideal for these cars.