XW only works during the daytime

Dave Angelini · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

Chad,

Power the system without the network. I would think you have tried a slow power up as suggested.

Even without the inverter you should run your solar to charge the batteries and do a complete charge cycle with EQ. If you are up for a drive I have a spare xw48 for my customers.

Cpfarr · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

Well I tried starting with no network connections and it's a no go. Interesting thing happens when I turn off the main breaker in the xw distribution panel. After 2 seconds the scp turns itself on for about 4 seconds before turning off again. When the power is on the scp stays off. Strange stuff!

Dave thank you for your offer, I really appreciate it! Why cant i get one of you working down in my neck of the woods? A friend down here has a Trace unit I can barrow if things look like their going to take awhile with Xantrex. On the bright side it moved the generator hookup to the top of the to do list so at least somethings getting done around here this weekend!

Chad

BB. · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

I don't think the XW inverter is the problem here... I would start with the solar panels to XW MPPT charger to battery bank first.

You should be having some sun soon (I sent it your way today;)). It appears, for some reason, your charge is terminating early. In general, that is either because the battery bank is rising in voltage too quickly ("open battery / high resistance battery somewhere?). Or because the the wiring is not correct (too high of voltage at the charge controller vs battery bank) or a problem at the charge controllers (reading battery voltage correctly but making wrong decision).

Get some solar charge current going and start measuring voltages everywhere (batteries, battery banks, charge controller) and see if you can find some anomalies that you can address/fix.

It should take days of full sun before you charge controllers shut down and go into float.

3x 350 AH @ 48 volt battery bank at 50% state of charge (or less).
4 hours of 30x 205 watt panels

3x350 AH * 58 volts charging * 0.50 SOC / (4 hours of sun per day * 30x 205 Watt panels * 0.77 derating) = 1.6 days minimum

So, even if your battery bank were 50% full, it should take at least the better part of 2 days to recharge (charge current tapers off, 2-3 hours in absorb at least).

-Bill

Cpfarr · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

Thanks Bill we caught a bit of your sun today, it was nice!

Both cc's are reading "charger off, fault active". I'm about halfway through the cc manual again to see if I can get a redraft on the units somehow. Right now I can't clear the f69 fault from either of the cc's or the inverter. A soon as I can get the unit fired back up again I'll give your suggestions a try!

Enjoying the sun, Chad

Vic · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

Hi Cpfarr,

I have no experience with the OB FM CCs, but, seems that you have multiple "faults", so something very basic may be wrong.

Think that you may want to check your DC wiring, and compare your configuration with the suggested examples in the FM manual.

What is your design and measured PV input voltage ?

Have you checked the PV combiner box for miswiring, or tripped breakers etc ?

You may want to post your fault question on the OB forum:
http://www.outbackpower.com/forum/

OB is also very good at telephone tech support. This could help you get the CC issue resolved.

You really do need to get those batteries on some form of charger soon. Perhaps you could borrow a smaller generator and a battery charger to just get some charge on the batteries.

I dunno, but Good Luck, Vic

Cpfarr · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

Thanks Vic. I checked the wiring again today and everything is correct. I couldnt figure out why the scp would turn on momentairly after the system was turned off which got me thinking. Perhaps the scp was turning off because of a system over voltage and then turned on briefly while the remaining voltage in the system bled off which would bring the voltage into safe opperating range of the scp. After thinking about that all night I checked everything with the voltmeter again. Sure enough the battery bank wiring is correct but instead of reading in the 48-60 volt range it was up at 96 v with the two strings. I cut everything out and left just one bank wired up and everything fired right up. I was in bulk charge for about 45 min and it's currently in absorption for the last hr and a half or so. The system has never been in either state of charge for so long which makes me think the xw gear is not the problem and it's all in the batteries as Bill suggested!

I just checked the sg of all the batteries again and all are reading between 1.225 and 1.250.

I'm starting to think I may have a couple batteries with reverse polarity?

I'll let everyone know what happens! Chad

Vic · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

OK, Chad,

Good move on going to a single string of batts.

At 96 VDC with multiple strings, seems that there must be two strings in SERIES, not parallel.

And as noted before, you can manually rotate strings to charge them individaully.

Know that you are being VERY CAREFUL in manipulating the battery wiring.

Having a couple of reverse polarity batts would not cause the 96 VDC problem, that is a whole other string in SERIES. You need each string to be connected across the other being very careful to match the ploarity of the cables connecting one string to the others. Ideally, each string of batteries would have a circuit breaker or fuse (of appropriate size) at the end point of each string to protect against a shorting battery and so on, as you probably know.

Sounds like you are making progress. Good Luck, Vic

Cpfarr · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

Can anyone comment about battery monitors like the xantrex unit, http://www.solar-electric.com/xalidubamosy.html that mighit help me troubleshoot the different banks, or would another piece in the puzzle just complicate things?

Chad

halfcrazy · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

A good DVM and some patience will tell you most all you will need here I suspect one string was hooked up as 48 and the other as 96 and that is why at night it would die instantly the higher voltage string was never getting full.

I strongly urge you to find professional help at the very least be very very careful there is a ton of power in those batteries and no way to turn it off.

BB. · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

I like battery monitors and recommend them... And believe that they help people properly manage their battery banks--And are just about a requirement if you have AGM/Sealed batteries (cannot measure specific gravity).

However, with parallel strings, you really need to get a DC Current Clamp type meter... I keep linking to this one ($60 from Sears, private label version of this guy) because it is inexpensive and seems to do exactly what most people need to do.

You can easily pay $300 or more for a True RMS reading AC/DC clamp meter (Fluke) and others too... Just depends on your needs.

DC current clamp meters are not that accurate (3% or so) and they drift from zero over a few seconds to minutes because they use a transistor to measure the DC magnetic fields. AC clamp meters just use a current transformer instead.

-Bill

Cpfarr · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

Thanks for linking the clamp meter again Bill. I forgot to grab one last time I went into the big city. I'll pick one up end of the week when I'm back in there.

The one bank I have hooked up right now was in bulk charge for about an hour this morning and was in absorption a majority of the day after that till the sun went down this evening. Thanks to bill for sending it our way:D

Since we turned the system on last week it had never been in bulk or absorb more than about 30 minutes a day. I'm keeping my fingers crossed we've got the problem narrowed down to the battery bank now!

I'll be taking Vic's advice and rotating through the other two strings over the next couple days to get some current into them.

I'll keep you posted as things progress, Chad

BB. · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

What are you seeing for individual and overall string voltage? You may see battery voltage variations until they reach full charge.

-Bill

Cpfarr · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

The string I'm running on right now was up to about 56.6v till the sun set and it has tapered off to 51.3 but holding steady. I plugged a referidgerator in and everything held at 51v. That had been draining the bank after 15-30 minutes before.

The other two strings are disconnected from the system but are currently at 49.8 and 46.0. At the moment I do not have the strings hooked together so I don't have an overall voltage for the whole bank. The battery that dropped to 0.0v yesterday during charging was unplugged then. It has since climbed up to 3.3v. The rest of the batteries in that string are around the 5.9-6.1 range.

I sure am glad you guys check the forum so often. I can't imaging waiting a week in between posts like you do on other forums! You guys are fantastic!!! Chad

BB. · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

You might be able to get another string going by pulling any batteries that are not around 6 volts or higher and mixing in batteries from the other string.

Personally, I would scrap the 0 volt battery. I don't trust batteries that have gone "dead" even if you can get them to hold a charge later (at least not with an otherwise brand new bank).

What mode do the charge controller say they are in? They should be in MPPT or Bulk--Once they reach around 58.4 volts (or whatever voltage you have set), then they should hold ~58.4 volts for several more hours and you should see the current slowly taper down to a few percent of full charging current.

-Bill

halfcrazy · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

I would also get Surrette batteries in on this they have great customer service

mike95490 · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

halfcrazy wrote: »

I would also get Surrette batteries in on this they have great customer service

If your batteries are toasted or underdone, I'd make the next set cheap golf cart ones, till you get the system debuged

BB. · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

It is a brand new system with brand new batteries (as I understand) and self install.

Analyzing the current going into/out of the battery bank, per string, and watching battery voltage (and string voltage) under charge, load, and resting (after a few hours of no current flow) should teach you a lot about how your system is behaving and indicate problems... You have three parallel strings with 8x batteries per string--You have enough good batteries that the behavior of bad strings/bad batteries should really stand out... It sounds like you have between 1-4 bad batteries (out of 24)... Not great, but certainly something you can recover from without too much out of pocket expense (schooling is not cheap sometimes

)

It is not impossible to believe that one open battery is causing much of your issues (can damage other batteries in same string)... If you have a shorted battery, it could be causing all of your problems (shorted battery can damage all batteries in an array).

Your symptoms are not consistent with any one issue... You could have a mix of an open/shorted batteries and/or some other wiring issue (which a DC current clamp meter should help to diagnose).

Shorted/open batteries/parallel strings is one reason that I try to recommend avoiding paralleling lots of batteries together... It makes failures more difficult to catch and diagnose before they cause further damage.

-Bill

dwh · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

Can you ever get into a situation with two controllers hooked to a common Terminal block where they would fight with each other ??

I once had a Heart inverter/charger with a 50 amp output, I hooked a 15 amp charger to a common terminals and it would shut the 50 Amp down before the charge was complete.

Pretty sure whichever one puts out the highest voltage will win, regardless of amperage rating.

Blackcherry04 · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

dwh wrote: »

Pretty sure whichever one puts out the highest voltage will win, regardless of amperage rating.

I'd agree with you, maybe thats why the first post was about a insufficient charge. The wiring issue was something secondary when he was changing the bank around. 24 batteries is a big bank for sure and expensive, very expensive in this case. I took a bank of 10 batteries and a dvm and a clamp on Amp meter, I tracked each battery going down and coming back up on the charge. There is nothing equal about the voltage or current going to each individual battery, in theory maybe, but not real life. The first 2-4 take all the abuse.

dwh · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

I'd agree with you, maybe thats why the first post was about a insufficient charge. The wiring issue was something secondary when he was changing the bank around. 24 batteries is a big bank for sure and expensive, very expensive in this case. I took a bank of 10 batteries and a dvm and a clamp on Amp meter, I tracked each battery going down and coming back up on the charge. There is nothing equal about the voltage or current going to each individual battery, in theory maybe, but not real life. The first 2-4 take all the abuse.

That depends on how they are wired. In series there is no "first".

Blackcherry04 · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

dwh wrote: »

That depends on how they are wired. In series there is no "first".

Drop a amp meter on the 2nd and 3rd battery in that string and put a 300 amp load on it and tell me if there is a first.

mike95490 · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

Drop a amp meter on the 2nd and 3rd battery in that string and put a 300 amp load on it and tell me if there is a first.

Huh ? You don't put a load on a amp-meter. (or do you mean "Load the entire battery bank" ? )

That makes no sense. You can't measure amps in the middle of a battery string without disconnecting a cable somewhere, and install the amp-meter there. (unless it's a clamp-on)
And don't even think about sticking the amp meter prods across battery terminals.

The only first you are going to discover, is the first part of a fireball that was your amp meter, heading toward your face.

Blackcherry04 · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

mike90045 wrote: »

Huh ? You don't put a load on a amp-meter. (or do you mean "Load the entire battery bank" ? )

That makes no sense. You can't measure amps in the middle of a battery string without disconnecting a cable somewhere, and install the amp-meter there. (unless it's a clamp-on)
And don't even think about sticking the amp meter prods across battery terminals.

The only first you are going to discover, is the first part of a fireball that was your amp meter, heading toward your face.

I only have a clamp on, so I wouldn't know. A 6 V Battery has 3 cells , those cells are made up of Positive plates and Negative plates ALL hooked to a common bus. What I am saying the first battery in a string will pull more amps and give more amps then the second or third in a 4 battery 24 v string. You tell me what battery's will go bad first, what batteries will use more water?? Tell me why you have uneven battery SG and why equalize if they are all even??

Tell me how to find a bad call in a Rolls besides SG alone??

I have a 24v string of 4 that are used on a 6.0 kW, 370 amp motor. It's was the first battery on the Positive side that went first. I then started numbering the battery's and would shuffle them in rotation in the bank and increased their life significantly.

BB. · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

Many people here have said that they see a charging difference between battery positions in a single series string--The only thing I can think of is thermal differences. Batteries in the center getting warmer than batteries at the end of the string.

-Bill

B.

Dave Angelini · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

Batteries should be spaced so there is not a measureable thermal difference. In a well designed system, installed properly, this is not an issue. As halfcrazy said, or my take on what he said, the OP needs some help. This thread is one of the good examples of why, in some cases, installation can't be done over the internet.

dwh · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

BB. wrote: »

Many people here have said that they see a charging difference between battery positions in a single series string--The only thing I can think of is thermal differences. Batteries in the center getting warmer than batteries at the end of the string.

-Bill B.

And that no two batteries and/or wires will ever have equal resistance.

Cariboocoot · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

Let's put it this way: in an ideal world there shouldn't be different current rates flowing through the connectors of a series battery string.

But the world is less than ideal.

You can get a different reading on the same wire three times in a row because measuring technique is variable. You can get a different reading between batteries because internal battery resistance is different.

What you're looking for is fairly consistent current across all like battery wires, whether parallel or serial.

Don't quibble over tenths of an Amp.

Now, Voltage potential across a wire is another issue.

(Please don't start any arguments with me today; I dropped my entire breakfast on the floor and am excessively grumpy - even for me. Anyone arguing gets banned!

)

BB. · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

With a single series string, there is no current difference anywhere in the bank (with single series cell batteries).

Resistance, bad connections, bad cells, etc. do matter in a single series string--But you don't have the issue that parallel strings can have with different charge/discharge current between strings. And no obvious issues until you notice the bank capacity is dropping, or if you go out once in a while with a clamp on DC current meter and measure the bank under heavy charge/discharge (as well as battery/cell voltages) to see all is well (or not).

-Bill

mike95490 · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

...What I am saying the first battery in a string will pull more amps and give more amps then the second or third in a 4 battery 24 v string.....

in a series string of anything, current (amps) will be the same, anywhere along the string.

If you have paralleled 2 strings, then you have the potential for un-equal current between the 2 strings, but each string will have the same current at every point in the string. Or else the laws of electricity are changing.

Check out this article about wiring on the diagonal

Blackcherry04 · February 2011

Re: XW only works during the daytime

BB. wrote: »

Many people here have said that they see a charging difference between battery positions in a single series string--The only thing I can think of is thermal differences. Batteries in the center getting warmer than batteries at the end of the string.

-Bill B.

I am not trying to create a argument, I just found a few things that I tried and it seemed to work. I am no expert and don't sleep in Holiday Inns, it's all been trial and error.

A guy gave some old Rolls battery's and I took them apart to see if I could get a couple good cells and re-combine them and come with a couple good battery's. When I connected them in series and tested each one I found that there was a difference in how they charged and discharged and the amp flow. When I would move them around in a string, everything would change. They were kind of old, but I deducted there was a difference and that difference was at cell level and plates. The plates are on that Common bus.

XW only works during the daytime

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