EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)

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mike95490
mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
Ok, now I want to preach to the choir :D

Getting rid of oil eliminates the THREE GORGONS OF POLLUTION:
1. land -- refinery, oil drilling, auto, seepage pollution
2. water -- urban runoff, oil spills and gusher, refinery decants
3. air -- refinery and auto emissions
Not to mention an end to oil diplomacy, oil wars, oil foreign aid, killing peasants in oil countries, health effects of oil pollution, and the retraining of domestic oil and coal workers to produce and install clean electric-based cars and solar power.
It's a win-win for everyone but Big Oil: and Chevron won't give up its power and wealth lightly.

Today's announcement that Toyota-Tesla will resume production of the RAV-EV in 2012 is very good news.
(July 17, 2010 - Tesla to build electric Toyota Rav4 and Goldman's next headache News - Financial News
Tesla Motors will produce electric Rav4 crossover SUVs for Toyota Motor Co. beginning in 2012, the two companies announced Friday.
Toyota (TM) announced in May that it planned to invest $50 million in Tesla Motors (TSLA) upon the completion of the electric car maker's initial public offering, which took place on June 29.
A fleet of electric Rav4 prototypes will be delivered later this year, the two automakers said. The first prototype has already been built, the said, and is undergoing evaluation. )

from http://ev1.org/sunburst.htm

Plug-in Electric cars ("EV") and rooftop solar energy ("PV") is the only sustainable way to power individual autos.
Running an EV 1000 miles per month takes only 250 kilo-Watt-hours (kWh) of electric, about $25 worth; about what two old refrigerators cost and about a third of the average home usage.

It would take only a tenth of the average home roof -- 6 square yards -- to make 250 kWh per month, enough electric energy to run a plug-in car 1000 miles per month. The unused rooftops of America, over 10,000 square miles, can supply more energy than we need.

Because solar power and plug-in cars would cut oil profits, Big Oil has diverted attention from this proven alternative to oil and coal.
No matter how many nuke or coal plants we build, it won't replace one drop of oil unless there are plug-in cars to use the electric.

America's largest open-pit coal mine is a witches cauldron of toxic waste and caustic destruction; but if the ground were left alone, and covered with solar panels, we'd get more electric energy from the same space (28,000 acres) than from burning the coal.

Instead of coal mines and oil rigs, the same workers could be manufacturing and installing solar panels and building Electric plug-in cars and reforming the batteries after 100K miles.
Buying $700,000,000 per day of overseas oil from people who dislike us gives them our money and leaves only air and ground pollution, asthma and smog.
Nickel-Metal Hydride (NiMH) is the only proven Electric car battery; after 100K or 200K miles NiMH can be remelted down into new batteries without new mining.
But other batteries can be made to work, we need to get into production instead of endless research. We need to start making and improving plug-in cars right now, using the batteries we know work well.
Lowering cost and continual product improvement of EVs (Electric Vehicles) and solar panels is the only healing salve for our oil and coal toxicity.

- end of rant - Go forth and spread the word !
Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
|| Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
|| VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

Comments

  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)

    Like the rant, getting ready to do just that once the Volt hits. I suspect I can even approach getting one till 2012 from what the dealers here are telling everyone. Dealer allocations here for 2011 are like 2 per Dealer.

    Edit: Boone Pickens has a good plan as well to use Nat Gas as a large truck fuel, increase large wind and solar generation.
  • dwh
    dwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)
    mike90045 wrote: »
    It would take only a tenth of the average home roof -- 6 square yards -- to make 250 kWh per month, enough electric energy to run a plug-in car 1000 miles per month.

    Yea, but 1/3 of the U.S. are renters.

    http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housing/ahs/ahsfaq.html

    " 9. Q. How many renter occupied units are there in the United States?

    A. Approximately 35,045,000 or 31.7 percent of the occupied units were occupied by renters in 2007. "
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)
    dwh wrote: »
    Yea, but 1/3 of the U.S. are renters.

    http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housing/ahs/ahsfaq.html

    " 9. Q. How many renter occupied units are there in the United States?

    A. Approximately 35,045,000 or 31.7 percent of the occupied units were occupied by renters in 2007. "


    Cool the landlord puts up an array, and a coin-op meter on it. That's what I'd do, $5 at the pump, or $1 in the garage. Tenants will figure it out. or starve.

    sorry mike as i hit the edit button instead of quote. niel
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)
    mike90045 wrote: »
    Cool the landlord puts up an array, and a coin-op meter on it. That's what I'd do, $5 at the pump, or $1 in the garage. Tenants will figure it out. or starve.


    i don't think landlords will do that and it's easier for many renters (many are squeezed into an apartment building that would not accommodate that many pvs for very many cars) to just utilize the utility and let those who have the room to sell their extra kwhs from their gt systems. the utility would certainly be cheaper than buying power from a landlord.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)

    When you have people who buy Hummers for their daily crawl-commute to work you have to wonder if the average consumers is bright enough to pick the right vehicle for their needs in the first place.

    But if there aren't viable electric cars no one will ever pick them.
    The biggest problem is the recharge time exceeds how long it takes to fill a tank with gas. To me that is a major obstacle.

    (P.S.: if this turns in to multiple posts it's because my ISP keeps reporting that Wind-sun doesn't exist! :confused:)
  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)

    I still find EV's expensive compared to efficient diesel alternatives, and when we move out to our piece of land, the wife and I will only need to do a daily 20km trip, which would be perfect for a SMALL, CHEAP EV. So besides the popular choices what are the low-end options of the EV market?
    I only know of the GWiz from the UK (not seen them in Spain): http://www.goingreen.co.uk/store/product_list/68
    are there any comparable and cheaper alternatives?
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)

    Seen a couple "Zap" cars in our area...

    In years past, they needed an upgrade as soon as you purchased them (aluminum battery lugs, electronics die in wet weather, new battery charger, etc.)... Starting at ~$12,000 USD.

    Don't know about their quality now.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)

    There was a problem with the Zenn http://www.zenncars.com/ electric car too:
    Made in Toronto, Ontario but not legal on the streets because it couldn't meet minimum speed requirements. It would only do 40 kph. I'm not sure if this issue has been resolved, or in what way.

    Anyone who has tried to cross the Pattullo Bridge at 'rush' hour knows 40 kph is too fast for Vancouver roads anyway! :p
  • AntronX
    AntronX Solar Expert Posts: 462 ✭✭
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)

    Has anyone estimated cost of lifetime gasoline supply?

    15,000(miles) x 52(years) = 780,000(miles) / 38 (MPG) = 20,526 (gallons) x $3 = $61,578

    $61,578 / ($6/Watt) = 10.3 KW grid-tie solar system.

    10.3 (KW) x 5.5 x 365 x 52 = 1,075,217 (KWh) / 0.35 (KWh/mile) = 3,072,049 (miles)

    Conclusion: 780K miles worth of gasoline cost buys 3,072K miles of solar PV "fuel" to power an electric vehicle, almost 4 times as much miles with a lot less societal implications.

    Edit: forgot to add, there are other costs in PV such as inverter failure, broken panels, weather and climate change that will reduce total amount of PV "fuel" over a lifetime, but this calculation is a rough draft meant to point out lifetime expense of gasoline consumption and how much PV that money can buy.
  • nvyseal
    nvyseal Solar Expert Posts: 108 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)

    I played around with these calculations, but the cost of replacing the batteries say after 8 years tends to change things a bit
  • AntronX
    AntronX Solar Expert Posts: 462 ✭✭
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)
    stephendv wrote: »
    ... I will only need to do a daily 20km trip, which would be perfect for a SMALL, CHEAP EV...

    There is http://www.thinkev.com/

    But if you want really cheap, there is an option to convert gasoline powered car into electric using DC motor and AGM lead-acid batteries. It will give you 20KM range easily, and is cheapest option so far. To get more info, read this forum: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/
  • AntronX
    AntronX Solar Expert Posts: 462 ✭✭
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)
    nvyseal wrote: »
    I played around with these calculations, but the cost of replacing the batteries say after 8 years tends to change things a bit

    It's not true that the battery will fail at 8 years. It's just the warranty. Lithium EV battery can go for 15 years or more, depending how it is treated by owner. I did not want to complicate my example with costs of developing technology. Solar and gasoline are pretty established technologies compared to lithium batteries. If you want more accurate total cost estimate between gasoline powered car and solar powered battery car, include lifetime costs of engine overhaul, transmission repair, oil changes, filters, belts, radiator, failed parts, etc.
  • nvyseal
    nvyseal Solar Expert Posts: 108 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)
    AntronX wrote: »
    It's not true that the battery will fail at 8 years. It's just the warranty. Lithium EV battery can go for 15 years or more, depending how it is treated by owner. I did not want to complicate my example with costs of developing technology. Solar and gasoline are pretty established technologies compared to lithium batteries. If you want more accurate total cost estimate between gasoline powered car and solar powered battery car, include lifetime costs of engine overhaul, transmission repair, oil changes, filters, belts, radiator, failed parts, etc.

    You're kind of taking in the account the car is driven daily. I have a 89 Jeep with 67K miles on it, a 02 Chevy with 3K miles on it. sure its out of warranty but when the engine is off so is much of the time of use. this is not so true of batteries. The only thing I've had problems with these cars IS the batteries.

    I also buy items which offer great warranty's. If you were to walk into a store where there was a sign posted NO REFUNDS/ NO RETURNS, or bought a refrig that you know will last you about 10 years but they only have a 30 day guarantee wouldn't you be a little leery?
  • retrodog
    retrodog Solar Expert Posts: 53 ✭✭
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)

    The problem with solar systems is that the return on investment is delayed by 7-10 years. Most people don't have that kind of patience. And then there's the problem with hail storms and hurricanes, as well as tornadoes. Insurance might help, but still a hassle.

    One of the main things I like about my vectrix is that there is no fuel or induction system to keep clean or get clogged up. I can park it for a few months and it will will recharge and run fine.

    Education will help, but we also need more fun evs like the tesla, but at decent prices. It's not dangerous to put a lot of electric performance cars on the street. It's not even wasteful. Look at the vette, they are mostly driven like sedans as people mostly want to be seen in something cool.

    There are logical decisions and emotional decisions. A car purchase is usually a mixture of the two. The bias is usually person-specific. If evs are to flourish in our society soon, they need to be offered in fun and cool versions at a reasonable cost, with the ability to rapid charge at any gas station.
  • AntronX
    AntronX Solar Expert Posts: 462 ✭✭
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)
    nvyseal wrote: »
    ...The only thing I've had problems with these cars IS the batteries.

    You can't compare lead-acid car starting battery to lithium iron-phosphate battery. They are totally different technologies.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)
    AntronX wrote: »
    You can't compare lead-acid car starting battery to lithium iron-phosphate battery. They are totally different technologies.

    And either will remain charged and at the ready with a little bit of preemptive effort. Like checking and charging those FLA's once a month.

    The two biggest challenges to EV's are still initial cost (capital outlay is tougher to deal with for most people than is operating expense over time) and lack of quick "refueling" which makes range an even greater concern than with conventional vehicles.

    But they're getting there. :D
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,748 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)

    It will take quite a bit more time! Ten percent of the world economy is from oil. Most of the other ninety percent depends on it. Many people are going to want a car that has a chance against that Hummer.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)

    "Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST) "

    Biggest problem is this doesn't work for 90% of the population who work during the day. It would require a larger battery bank to charge the car.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)
    Photowhit wrote: »
    "Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST) "

    Biggest problem is this doesn't work for 90% of the population who work during the day. It would require a larger battery bank to charge the car.

    True!
    Can't charge if you're not at the panels, and it's unlikely your workplace will be installing an employee charging station (go ahead; make the jokes! :p )

    One thing that occurs to me is that electric cars will need standardized recharging connectors and Voltages. You should be able to connect up your Nissan/Toyota/Chevy/Ferrari at any station with the same plug and not worry about putting 680 Volts to a 360 Volt battery.

    There's also the issue of how long it takes to recharge. People aren't going to wait a few hours at the BiPolar Electric Station to "refill their tank". If they could get it down to under 15 minutes ... maybe. (That would be similar to fueling my van, frankly. But it can go 1000+ kms on a tank out on the highway, while carrying 3/4 ton.)
  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)
    One thing that occurs to me is that electric cars will need standardized recharging connectors and Voltages.

    Its called SAE J1772, its is standardize and the Leaf and Volt both use it as will Ford Focus EV.

    http://green.autoblog.com/tag/sae+j1772/

    The different paddle chargers of the 90's are long gone
  • RandomJoe
    RandomJoe Solar Expert Posts: 472 ✭✭✭
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)

    It's a nice idea, that would actually work for me since I have a company vehicle I drive home. So the EV could spend the sunny days in the garage being charged, and outside work I drive very little anyway so the shorter range normally wouldn't bother me.

    I already do this sorta-kinda. My S-10 sits unused so much that the starting battery would die at the 3-4 year point. Now it has my old HF panels connected keeping it topped up each day, and it's still going after 5 years (although probably not much longer - it got abused for 3 years before I started doing this).

    Would I get an EV? Perhaps for the next vehicle, but that's going to be a VERY long time away at the rate I'm going. My S-10 is a 1998 model, and I only recently cleared 50,000 miles! I typically fill it up (maybe $35 right now) every 1-1/2 to 2 months. I think I'd have a hard time justifying replacement with a new EV anytime soon.
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)
    RandomJoe wrote: »
    It's a nice idea, that would actually work for me since I have a company vehicle I drive home. So the EV could spend the sunny days in the garage being charged, and outside work I drive very little anyway so the shorter range normally wouldn't bother me.

    I already do this sorta-kinda. My S-10 sits unused so much that the starting battery would die at the 3-4 year point. Now it has my old HF panels connected keeping it topped up each day, and it's still going after 5 years (although probably not much longer - it got abused for 3 years before I started doing this).

    Would I get an EV? Perhaps for the next vehicle, but that's going to be a VERY long time away at the rate I'm going. My S-10 is a 1998 model, and I only recently cleared 50,000 miles! I typically fill it up (maybe $35 right now) every 1-1/2 to 2 months. I think I'd have a hard time justifying replacement with a new EV anytime soon.


    Yeah my 2006 Colorado is much the same with 12K miles, the heat here kills the battery if not charged. Had one replaced under warranty a couple years ago.

    The wife's 2002 Cavalier has 45K miles but it is really getting trashed iside from the sun, the volt will be hers I am sure.
  • nvyseal
    nvyseal Solar Expert Posts: 108 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)

    Chevy Volt to cost $41,000 before rebate

    A federal tax credit would bring the electric car's price to $33,500. Volt's main rival, the Nissan Leaf, could have a base price of $20,280 for Californians after subsidies. Both go on sale later this year.

    http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-autos-volt-20100727,0,7059556.story?track=rss

    By the numbers:

    volt-vs-leaf.png
  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)

    Nissan has said they are matching the Volt 8y/100k warranty, its not unknown

    http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1047616_2011-nissan-leaf-matches-volt-8-year-100000-mile-warranty
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)

    that leaf is fairing pretty well by looking at the specs compared here. if somebody gets worried about running out of juice then i wonder how well it could accommodate maybe a small genny and charger to carry along just like somebody would take a spare tire or pump for the tires, realizing they may need to be special to accommodate the battery bank in it?
  • nvyseal
    nvyseal Solar Expert Posts: 108 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)

    You know... Drive-in diners could become popular again. Pull in plug in your car the car hop comes out and takes your order eat and you and your car are off on a full charge. There goes the drive-thru's
  • AntronX
    AntronX Solar Expert Posts: 462 ✭✭
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)
    nvyseal wrote: »
    You know... Drive-in diners could become popular again...

    Heeey! Great Idea. Complete with girls on rollerskates. Watch out for those charge cables though. How about "drive in and plug in" movie theaters? And you can have air conditioning without idling the engine.
  • drees
    drees Solar Expert Posts: 482 ✭✭✭
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)

    As to whether the Leaf or Volt is a better deal - it depends - it's kind of like the microinveter-centralinverter debate. :)

    If you will only have one car and/or frequently drive close to 100mi+ then the Volt would be a better fit.
    If you rarely drive more than 75mi, then the Leaf would be a better fit.

    That said - the leasing terms are basically identical, so if you are leasing, it's even in terms of price.

    Now if you are going to purchase - it highly depends on your state rebate for EV or PHEVs. As said earlier, in CA the Leaf will have a HUGE price advantage over the Volt.
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)

    interesting yahoo news article and timing for this thread.
    http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/1485/gm-nissan-compete-for-best-deal-on-electric-car/
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: EV (car) Recharging from your Roof (Operation SUNBURST)

    Niel;
    Is that the theme from the Twilight Zone playing? :p
    Some weird chronological things happening around here today!