Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

Horus · April 2010

Nissan Motor Co. said Thursday that it is enjoying brisk demand for its new Leaf electric car in Japan, with purchase orders in the first three weeks surpassing half of targeted sales of 6,000 vehicles for the full business year ending March 2011. The Japanese car maker said it has received pre-orders for 3,754 vehicles after it began taking orders for the Leaf from April 1.

The Nissan Leaf electric car will cost $32,780 when it rolls into showrooms in December. Add in the federal EV tax credit, and the bottom line is $25,280, a price that makes the Leaf competitive with the Honda Civic and the Toyota Prius. In California, because of extra subsidies and incentives it’s going for $20,028. The 220-volt charging station you’ll need to keep the car going will cost you about $2,200, but that includes the installation. A federal tax credit will cover half the cost, said Dave Mingle, Nissan’s senior director for customer management and business strategy.

Click the link below for the full article and also to watch a video detailing all of the specifications of the Leaf.

http://envirogy.wordpress.com/2010/04/23/new-leaf-a-hit-has-anyone-driven-one-yet/

drees · April 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

Nissan also got more than 6000 reservations for the Leaf in the US after only a couple days of taking them.

I signed up and put my deposit down.

Brock · April 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

Cool. So what are the specs? I see it has a 220v charger and what looks like a 120v inlet as well? Why do they say you "have" to use the 220v charger, not that I would suggest against getting one, if it does have a regular 120vac in? Maybe the 120vac charge time is 24 hours or more?

drees · April 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

Specs:

80 kW AC motor
24 kWh li-ion battery
3.3 kW onboard charger
100 mi range based on the LA4 city cycle

Charge times on a 120v 15A circuit are estimated to be 16-18 hours.
Charge times on a 240v 20A circuit are estimated to be 6-8 hours.
Charge times on a Level 3 quick charger is estimated to be 26min to 80% full.

Charge times are based on an empty battery - most people will be charging long before the battery gets close to empty.

For example, my normal commute is 24 miles, or about 1/4 of the battery capacity. So on a standard 120V circuit it would take 4 hours to recharge and only 90-120 minutes on a 240V.

Lots of info here: http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/

Brock · April 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

Very cool. Three more questions.

1 How many does it seat? 4 or 5? We have 6 in our family, although we have a TDI wagon that only seats 5...

2 How does it heat the cabin, heat pump or electric resistance or ?

3 If the charger is on board what is the $2200 charging station at home for? If the charger is indeed onboard wouldn't it just need a 240vac 20 amp outlet? That certainly wouldn't cost $2200 to install?

drees · April 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

Brock wrote: »

1 How many does it seat? 4 or 5? We have 6 in our family, although we have a TDI wagon that only seats 5...

Roof for five. Probably similar in passenger room to your Jetta TDI wagon.

Brock wrote: »

2 How does it heat the cabin, heat pump or electric resistance or ?

I believe it's a resistance heater from the discussion I had with their live chat team.

Brock wrote: »

3 If the charger is on board what is the $2200 charging station at home for? If the charger is indeed onboard wouldn't it just need a 240vac 20 amp outlet? That certainly wouldn't cost $2200 to install?

The charger has a bit of smarts in it. It communicates with the car (over the power lines) to let the car know how much power it can pull.

It's a standard J1772 charger, so it will work with any EV which also uses the standard.

For example, the Chevy Volt will use the same plug/charger.

Brock · April 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

drees wrote: »

The charger has a bit of smarts in it. It communicates with the car (over the power lines) to let the car know how much power it can pull.

It's a standard J1772 charger, so it will work with any EV which also uses the standard.

For example, the Chevy Volt will use the same plug/charger.

Ummmm, what if it is connected to an inverter off grid?

I am still confused as to what the $2200 part is, is it actually another charger or is that the part that communicates to the grid or just a fancy safety connection for 20A at 240vac? I guess I have worked on boats for too long plugging in 50A at 240vac to shorepower without any problems and we were floating on the water

Brock · April 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

LOL, I just went to the site (should have done that first). So it does look like a smart plug. It is interesting to see it can be connected to 20A 240 or preferably 40A at 240vac, probably programmable with a pretty wide range, neat but expensive. I suppose it also prevents any possibility of somehow electrocuting yourself by not turning power on until it knows it is connected to the car. Also handy for using outside in the rain.

Overall I really like the concept. And as much as I like the idea of making my own power it will be hard overall to be my already paid for TDI wagon, but for our next car, or hopefully electric van

drees · April 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

Yep, you got it now, Brock. The smarts in the wall charger are for communicating with the car, not the grid.

The spec allows up to 240V 80A, but all the ones I've seen so far will only handle up to 40A or so.

retrodog · July 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

Are the batteries included? Last I heard, they were about $10,000 and would be leased only. Supposedly a sneeky way to keep the apparent cost down.

drees · July 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

retrodog wrote: »

Are the batteries included? Last I heard, they were about $10,000 and would be leased only. Supposedly a sneeky way to keep the apparent cost down.

The $33k (before tax credits) includes the battery.

nvyseal · July 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

drees wrote: »

The $33k (before tax credits) includes the battery.

Just thought id pass this along to you. Hope more states jump on the wagon:

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/06/30/interstate-5-in-washington-to-become-electric-highway/

retrodog · July 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

nvyseal wrote: »

Just thought id pass this along to you. Hope more states jump on the wagon:

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/06/30/interstate-5-in-washington-to-become-electric-highway/

At some point, we're going to run into a brick wall on this whole electric power thing.

I have a Vectrix maxi-scooter. I've had it for nearly two years. It's great. But part of the cost savings comes from saving on all the taxes that are added to a gallon of gas. Now while I'm all for avoiding paying tax revenue in to the state/federal government, it's still missing tax revenue (talk to California about the harm from that). Then, if that problem is combined with extensive tax credits to the EV buyer, that's a double whammy. The state is out money they'd be taking in and they are also losing the money that they hand out for the EV purchase.

So where is the payback to the government? Now before someone says something like "the payback comes in terms of a cleaner environment"... that's not really a financial payback (talk to California about that again).

"What's your point, retrodog?" Well ok, sooner or later the gubment is gonna figure out that they are missing out on a lot of money and they will want it. So electricity is going to have to be taxed, which is impractical because a lot of electricity is used for non-transportational purposes... or they will start charging a special excise/property tax for electric cars. There is no such thing as a free lunch, and this current system is just a loan to get the transition in gear.

mike95490 · July 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

retrodog wrote: »

Now while I'm all for avoiding paying tax revenue in to the state/federal government, it's still missing tax revenue (talk to California about the harm from that). .

1) California does not have a tax problem, they have a spending problem.

2) Road fees will be extracted by mandatory GPS, which Oregon is trying out.

retrodog · July 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

mike90045 wrote: »

1) California does not have a tax problem, they have a spending problem.

2) Road fees will be extracted by mandatory GPS, which Oregon is trying out.

Technically, it's defined by whichever came first. And defining it as a tax problem or a spending problem is all just political spin one direction or the other. But keep in mind, I'd probably side with your opinion. I just think it's irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion.

For the purposes of this discussion, the tax revenue has historically be rolling in and will now be cut back by the energy switch to electricity. Are you saying that all alternate energy vehicles will be required to use mandatory GPS receivers for tracking and subsequent road usage fee collection? That's about the only way they'd be able to do it. At least you'd only be paying per mile, as opposed to some sort of across-the-board minimal fee. But that wouldn't take into account what the fuel economy of the vehicle was. Or maybe they don't really care about that.

BB. · July 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

In Oregon (with California funding)--the GPS based charging system was because "everyone was going to smaller and more fuel efficient cars--causing the state to loose out on tax revenue).

The government folks were complaining that the new fuel efficient cars are not paying their fair share.

The original pilot plan (a few years ago) was intended to collect the same road taxes, per mile, from a Hummer or a Prius.

-Bill

retrodog · July 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

BB. wrote: »

In Oregon (with California funding)--the GPS based charging system was because "everyone was going to smaller and more fuel efficient cars--causing the state to loose out on tax revenue).

The government folks were complaining that the new fuel efficient cars are not paying their fair share.

The original pilot plan (a few years ago) was intended to collect the same road taxes, per mile, from a Hummer or a Prius.

-Bill

So was there no sane person there to point out that these fuel efficient vehicles were primarily not paying their part because they were much lighter in weight, making "their part" much smaller when considering wear and tear on the roads?

I'm pretty sure that one of my 500 lb. motorcycles don't put anywhere near as much wear on the road as a Hummer.

BB. · July 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

Larger commercial vehicles also pay a weight fee (at least in California).

I believe the above argument was that a Hummer and a Prius take up pretty much the same amount of room on the road and therefore require many of the same state services (obviously, road wear and tear has got to be less with the Prius). The original goal was just to drop fuel taxes and get equal revenue from the GPS based taxes (believe that? I got a bridge to sell to you).

In the end, I think, that electric vehicles only make economic sense when they do not pay any road taxes. If you have to pay the same road taxes as everyone else (and electric vehicles tend to be heavier--so they could get hit with weight fees too).

In Europe, where the price of taxes is several times the price of the fuel--they could not ever afford to let significant numbers of non-tax paying electric vehicles on the road.

Even if they did more electrical power taxes to cover road fees--what about those folks that install solar arrays--are we going to get power meters on our arrays so that we do not "evade" our fair share of taxes?

-Bill

dwh · July 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

retrodog wrote: »

For the purposes of this discussion, the tax revenue has historically be rolling in and will now be cut back by the energy switch to electricity.

Good. Both state and federal governments should be weaned from tax revenue. I LIKE that the Governator cut state employee wages. I hope (probably forlorn I know) it causes a good portion of the bureaucracy to quit and go find jobs in the private sector. When it comes to keeping the government cut down to size, I'm a huge fan of "hack and slash".

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. " - Thomas Jefferson

Are you saying that all alternate energy vehicles will be required to use mandatory GPS receivers for tracking and subsequent road usage fee collection? That's about the only way they'd be able to do it. At least you'd only be paying per mile, as opposed to some sort of across-the-board minimal fee. But that wouldn't take into account what the fuel economy of the vehicle was. Or maybe they don't really care about that.

If you are going to tax by the mile, the simplest method would probably just be to tax the tires - since we know pretty much how many miles they are good for - and also charge registration fees based on the weight of the vehicle.

Which wouldn't even be necessary if our elected representatives would just enforce fair trade. Anyone remember when Iococca testified to congress about how the unfair trade imbalance with Japan was killing the American automobile manufacturing business?

I'm not a minuteman or any such kook - but I believe that the immigration laws SHOULD BE ENFORCED. (And how can the President of a foreign country file a suit against an American state? How the hell is that even possible? But that's another subject.)

I'm not a protectionist either, but I believe that there should be SOME protectionism - fair trade SHOULD BE ENFORCED. Our "trading partners" are practicing protectionism and we aren't and it is killing us. Literally.

Fix that problem, and you'll fix a LOT of other problems - like jobs and wages...and the taxes which are dependent upon jobs and wages.

http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/webfeatures_viewpoints_tradetestimony/

"Am I the only guy in this country who's fed up with what's happening? Where the hell is our outrage? We should be screaming bloody murder. We've got a gang of clueless bozos steering our ship of state right over a cliff, we've got corporate gangsters stealing us blind, and we can't even clean up after a hurricane much less build a hybrid car. But instead of getting mad, everyone sits around and nods their heads when the politicians say, "Stay the course." Stay the course? You've got to be kidding. This is America, not the damned Titanic. I'll give you a sound bite: Throw the bums out!" - Lee Iococca

retrodog · July 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

BB. wrote: »

Larger commercial vehicles also pay a weight fee (at least in California).

I believe the above argument was that a Hummer and a Prius take up pretty much the same amount of room on the road and therefore require many of the same state services (obviously, road wear and tear has got to be less with the Prius). The original goal was just to drop fuel taxes and get equal revenue from the GPS based taxes (believe that? I got a bridge to sell to you).

In the end, I think, that electric vehicles only make economic sense when they do not pay any road taxes. If you have to pay the same road taxes as everyone else (and electric vehicles tend to be heavier--so they could get hit with weight fees too).

In Europe, where the price of taxes is several times the price of the fuel--they could not ever afford to let significant numbers of non-tax paying electric vehicles on the road.

Even if they did more electrical power taxes to cover road fees--what about those folks that install solar arrays--are we going to get power meters on our arrays so that we do not "evade" our fair share of taxes?

-Bill

There has always been the "home grown" factor. It's present in the tobacco industry, fuel refinement, brewery work, etc. These are typically considered as an acceptable loss by the government because they don't add up to enough to make it worth the trouble to track and attempt collections from. But this EV thing, OTOH, is getting way beyond the original "home grown" factor numbers. And like anything else that gets noticed, it gets added to the list of regulated categories.

The real irony here is that all these historical "ambassadors" of EV will end up being victims of their own success.

BB. · July 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

DWH,

That is probably about the limit of what we want to discuss about politics here on this forum....

We want to keep the forum family friendly--and don't want to see it spiral out of control.

-Bill

dwh · July 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

How was I not family friendly?

(Seriously, I don't know. Was it my use of the "h" word? Or my quoting of Iococca using the "h" word? Or am I more confused that usual and it has nothing to do with the "h" word.)

I was talking about taxes, which I believe was the subject that others (including you) were discussing. That is by nature a political topic. I would point out that I did not initiate the discussion of taxes.

In any case, I bow to your authority as moderator and will shut my big mouth now.

BB. · July 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

DWH,

I said the about the limit, not exceeding the limits--If it goes farther (my political party can beat up your political party) type discussions--it will become difficult for us to moderate here without ticking somebody off...

Trying to be fair to everyone here... Obviously, I have my political views too and I don't want to look like I am shutting down others who have points I may not agree with.

This goes back to our host's requirements for the forum to help folks discuss their Solar RE related questions (and directly related to RE politics)...

An open Cafe makes moderating very difficult and may not reflect well on their business.

So, back to your question--For me, it was more the open ended questions about boarders, immigration, fair trade, government payrolls, etc. that while very valid things to be concerned about--are beyond what we are prepared to discuss/moderate here.

The post itself is fine (talking about "form" of post; no personal aspersions, language sort of OK, etc.). Just taking a guess about where these conversations could lead on this forum.

-Bill "an imperfect moderator" B.

AntronX · July 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

mike90045 wrote: »

...Road fees will be extracted by mandatory GPS, which Oregon is trying out.

GPS signal is easy to jam. How are they going to prevent that? By forcing the car to turn off when signal is lost? People would not accept that. I am not an expert on taxes, but my guess revenue for road maintenance will be collected from higher state income tax, sales tax and tolls.

BB. · July 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

I have issues with the GPS based system too... As you say, it is very easy to jam--and as soon at there is money at stake--jamming the system is going make GPS's pretty much useless in the US.

The hunt for 1 GPS "jammer" in Moss Landing Harbor 2003.

I think it is a very bad idea.

-Bill

retrodog · July 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

dwh wrote: »

Good. Both state and federal governments should be weaned from tax revenue. I LIKE that the Governator cut state employee wages. I hope (probably forlorn I know) it causes a good portion of the bureaucracy to quit and go find jobs in the private sector. When it comes to keeping the government cut down to size, I'm a huge fan of "hack and slash".

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. " - Thomas Jefferson

If you are going to tax by the mile, the simplest method would probably just be to tax the tires - since we know pretty much how many miles they are good for - and also charge registration fees based on the weight of the vehicle.

Taxing tires would get somewhat complicated. They'd have to do it at different rates, based on wear ratings. And then the tire manufacturers would be getting sued for defective tires that wore out too fast, almost daily.

Charging fees solely based on the weight of a vehicle is a bad idea. I have a full sized Dodge 4x4 Ram truck that I only drive when I need to haul or two stuff. So I put about 200 miles on it last year. The upcoming years don't look much higher. If I got charged some large amount of money for registration, I'd really be getting screwed and probably have to sell it. My main transportation is a Subaru, Suzuki 650 scooter, and Vectrix Electric Scooter. I already have to pay way too much insurrence but hey, that's life.

dwh · July 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

retrodog wrote: »

And then the tire manufacturers would be getting sued for defective tires that wore out too fast

You say that like it's a bad thing.

retrodog · July 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

dwh wrote: »

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Yeah, it's almost impossible to prove what leads to tire wear. Aggressive driving is a leading cause, of course, for causes beyond just normal driving. It can be somewhat identified by tread wear patterns. But even looking at uneven wear across the tread makes it difficult as that can be greatly affected by over or under inflation. That would lead to a big can of worms and in a system where we already have WAY too many frivolous law suits, that's not what we want.

Another down-side to this approach is that it would lead to even more accidents because people would be driving on worn out tires, even more so than they do now. If you think it's bad now, just wait to see what will happen when you put a notable tax burden on tire replacement. You will have bald tires all over the highways. That's not a good thing to inadvertently promote.

They need to focus on coming up with good ideas that can be accurately and evenly controlled, not the ones that would lead to even more confusion and uneven burden/cost distribution.

retrodog · July 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

Well in any case...

I just reserved a Leaf.

The dealer is supposed to have a demo in stock this October (three months away) to test and check out. He claimed that Nissan is expecting an initial run of 50,000 units.

niel · July 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

in retrospect, i wonder why they chose the name of the car as leaf? it does not give a good connotation or image as it might imply that it is a dead appendage that just floats downwind. how about naming it a toad as it might jump to the occasion?:roll::p

retrodog · July 2010

Re: Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

niel wrote: »

in retrospect, i wonder why they chose the name of the car as leaf? it does not give a good connotation or image as it might imply that it is a dead appendage that just floats downwind. how about naming it a toad as it might jump to the occasion?:roll::p

You need to quit looking only down when you walk around. I see a leaf as something green that's hanging on to a tree and brings life to it. But that's probably cause I look up when I'm walking around.

j/k

sorry hit wrong key. niel

Nissans EV the Leaf a hit in Japan

Comments

Categories