AC sync problem dual xw4548

b. ecologìcAll · May 2010

This is my 4th installation and the first time I install two inverters in the same house.
I follow the manual

But, the second inverter always have F66 failure

this is the setup

Inv 01 master
Inv 02 slave

Also, two charge controllers
MPPT 01
MPPT 02

the trouble shooting guide just said to verify for configuration.

please advice what could be the problem
where to look
what to test

thanks

mike95490 · May 2010

Re: AC sync problem dual xw4548

Brands, models would help.

BB. · May 2010

Re: AC sync problem dual xw4548

In title:

dual xw4548

-Bill

mike95490 · May 2010

Re: AC sync problem dual xw4548

So the dual MPPT's are also XW60's ?

Any SCP's ?

crewzer · May 2010

Re: AC sync problem dual xw4548

b. ecologìcAll wrote: »

This is my 4th installation and the first time I install two inverters in the same house.
I follow the manual

But, the second inverter always have F66 failure

this is the setup

Inv 01 master
Inv 02 slave

Also, two charge controllers
MPPT 01
MPPT 02

the trouble shooting guide just said to verify for configuration.

please advice what could be the problem
where to look
what to test

thanks

Greetings from Burnaby (Vancouver), BC! Headin' home today.

The F66 fault message indicates a "System Configuration Fault". Specifically, it means the multi-unit configuration settings are not correct.

In addition to master and slave assignments, make sure each unit has its own unique device number, and also verify that "Connections" have been configured correctly. See pages 3-23 to -26 in the XW Operation Guide.

Hope this helps,
Jim / crewzer

Dave Angelini · May 2010

Re: AC sync problem dual xw4548

As Jim said you have to give each device a unique number! It will not do it for you!
It looks like you have done this but...

b. ecologìcAll · April 2012

Re: AC sync problem dual xw4548

two years and still having problems with this dual inverter system
originally, the F66 problem was resolve after removing one network terminator as xantrex tech support suggest (it was installed on the last charge controller, MPPT 02)

but,
now, from time to time, every 2 or 3 days, there is a power interruption of about 2 seconds
I think the problem is when the second inverter (slave) goes from "stand-by" to "invert" or vice versa
because if I shutdown the 2nd inverter, the power interruptions disappears

configuration
MPPT 01
MPPT 02

Inv 01 master
Inv 02 slave

one SCP

all connected using xanbux

BB. · April 2012

Re: AC sync problem dual xw4548

Check wiring, connections between the inverters... Perhaps even try swapping your "spare" terminator for the one currently plugged in.

Also, double check the DC voltages at the inverters (under heavy loads and/or under heavy charge) with an accurate volt meter and see that they are within the battery voltage range you expect.

Since it used to work fine, and now does not--My first guesses are that a connection got dirty/connector is failing--Or the battery bank is and not up to the load for one or the other inverter.

-Bill

b. ecologìcAll · April 2012

Re: AC sync problem dual xw4548

tks, going now to work on your suggestions
the battery bank is made of 16 deka solar 8d
8 new
8 5 years old
base on your assumption of battery voltage at the inverters be the problem, can the use of old batteries with new batteries be the problem?

BB. · April 2012

Re: AC sync problem dual xw4548

Mixing old + new batteries can be a problem--But mostly for the batteries themselves... You may have poor current sharing between the old and new strings (I would try really hard to avoid mixing old/new batteries in the same series string--the differences in performance would lead to poor equalization and possible "bad cell" taking out the rest of the string).

It is possible that the old+new batteries are not sharing current properly and you might be having excessive voltage sag at the inverter (just guessing--obviously I have no knowledge of your system).

However if the 5 year old batteries are otherwise working OK--It probably is not the problem.

I would use a DC Current Clamp meter to measure the amperage in each parallel string (as well as measuring the voltage at each battery terminal set) and see if everything is (more or less) balanced--And you have nothing out of ordinary (poor current sharing, a battery or cell with too high or too low of voltage, wire or connection with high or low voltage drop, etc.)--I would begin to wonder if the inverter(s) is having a problem. If possible, I would switch the master/slave functions and see if the problem remains (being careful that I have spares available in case something fails during testing).

-Bill

b. ecologìcAll · April 2012

Re: AC sync problem dual xw4548

all the cd and ac connections seems to be ok
since the error logged was f66 configuration error, and obiusly there is no error on the configuration
(just 3 f66 errors logged for the past 6 months, all the same day)
i assume was may be a bad network cable
so replaced all xanbus cables with cat5e shielded cables
also replace the sync cable between the two XW inverters with a cat5e shielded cable

i want to do that since the first f66 error two years ago
but the xantrex tech support told me was not necessarily and was a waste of money to use shielded cables, so doing some trouble shooting back on those days the problems appears to be solved by removing the last terminator and after a few starups

65DegN · April 2012

Re: AC sync problem dual xw4548

b. ecologìcAll wrote: »

now, from time to time, every 2 or 3 days, there is a power interruption of about 2 seconds
I think the problem is when the second inverter (slave) goes from "stand-by" to "invert" or vice versa
because if I shutdown the 2nd inverter, the power interruptions disappears

You may have an internal transfer relay that is sticking particularly suspect when the problem is intermittant.

SolaRevolution · April 2012

Re: AC sync problem dual xw4548

b. ecologìcAll wrote: »

two years and still having problems with this dual inverter system...
...but,
now, from time to time, every 2 or 3 days, there is a power interruption of about 2 seconds
I think the problem is when the second inverter (slave) goes from "stand-by" to "invert" or vice versa
because if I shutdown the 2nd inverter, the power interruptions disappears

I've seen a problem show up on two different XW systems which may be the culprit.
The trouble was that the two inverters' AC output voltage was calibrated slightly differently.

The symptoms:
-occasional brief power interruptions.
-higher than expected idle current when inverters are parallel via AC Load breakers.
-phantom load watts displayed on SCP but not being drawn from battery.
-problems go away while only one inverter is in use. Any one inverter, doesn't matter which.
-when charging reaches float, current of one XW falls off very fast and sometimes shows inverting to loads.

Basically, the XW inverters were AC coupling. With the different callibrations one would actually "sell" to the other thru the AC output panel.

In one system with 2 XW6048-60 120/240s, it was obvious because if the load breakers for both inverters were on, you could hear the transformer buzz get louder. It was making a loop of about 200 watts go out one inverter's AC Load connection and into the other inverter's AC load connection. The battery current would increase by only about half an amp @ 48 volt nom. The moment you turned off either AC load breaker the 200 watt loop would disappear.

In a different system with 3 XW6048-60120/240s, the system seemed okay under normal use. The only thing that seemed strange was a high load idle current on the SCP. ( +/-190 watts) with all inverters on. When the parallel AC load output breakers were turned off, the 190 watts fell to about 90 watts on the SCP. The transformer buzz got quieter and the battery current decreased so little (<0.2)it was hard to measure with a clamp on amp meter. This system worked fine except for when the batteries reached float while running the generator. Two of the XWs would be charging and the other would be inverting as much as 1200 watts.

If the generator had been started manually the f66 config error would sometimes show up. Sometimes a "low AC voltage" error would show too. If it was started by the AGS the inverters would automatically disconnect before the generator was shut down or the gen breaker was turned off.

Tec support had me check all of my connections twice. They wanted me to rewire them from scratch until I sent them photos of the install with colored and labled wires running to each terminal. After making several 3 hour round trip drives, running a temporary phone land line to the power room and hours on tech support, Xantrex/Schneider replaced the 2 inverter system. The issue with the 3 inverter system is tolerable and the customer decided to just use the AGS. That's better for the system anyway.

Alex Aragon

PS: I'm still a fan of the XW system.

BTW:
Have you ever noticed that the Schneider tec support line hold music is a tune called "So what" ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X7NOh7lTf8&feature=related

Cariboocoot · April 2012

Re: AC sync problem dual xw4548

Alex, I'm going to ask this even though it may sound like a very stupid question: were these parallel inverters communicating via the Xanbus or were they simply AC wired?

I'm not sure how Xantrex's system works (and many of the ways it "works" absolutely mystifies me) but it would seem logical that if the right communication protocols were in place it ought to "know" it's got two inverters connected to the same AC circuits and adjust and act accordingly.

I hate to sound like an Outback commercial but it does seem Xantrex has far more trouble just getting things to work than OB has ever had, whether inverters or charge controllers. As for their customer support ... your notation says it all. :roll:

SolaRevolution · April 2012

Re: AC sync problem dual xw4548

Cariboocoot wrote: »

were these parallel inverters communicating via the Xanbus or were they simply AC wired?

I'm not sure how Xantrex's system works (and many of the ways it "works" absolutely mystifies me) but it would seem logical that if the right communication protocols were in place it ought to "know" it's got two inverters connected to the same AC circuits and adjust and act accordingly.

I hate to sound like an Outback commercial but it does seem Xantrex has far more trouble just getting things to work than OB has ever had, whether inverters or charge controllers.

They are Xanbus connected. That is the reason tec support kept telling me it was impossible for one to be charging while the other is inverting.

Outback has it's share of shortcomings too. Don't get me wrong, I've gladly installed many FXs. The problem is that the Outback "FX" line is not on the same level as the XW for grid-tied systems. With a system limitation of 7.2kw (6074 watts max sell) and no second AC input for a generator and comparatively low surge current, there where just too many limitations to Outback's gear for many applications. Outback's "Radian" system has changed that. I have yet to install one. I've played around with my friend Wayne's Beta model and I like it so far. As for their Charge Controllers, I have no idea how many MXs and FXs I've had to send back for service. The greatest difference is how Outback handled it. One phone call with a warm body on the other end of the line (usually immediately) and a replacement was on the way. I pray that the "Alpha Group" doesn't blow it.

I used to have "back door" phone numbers and the Xantrex forum for XW gear if I ever really needed it, so it worked for me. Not so much since Schneider.

Gone are the days...

The industry has been getting so corporate lately. Where are the humans? Who in management knows didly squat about how the gear works anymore?
(Okay, besides Robin Gudgel of Midnite) 8)

Alex Aragon

BTW, regarding the trouble with the XW AC output:
The other thing to check is the AC output voltage. When the AC output breakers were open, outputs of the inverters were different by a volt or two. We tried new firmware etc. There is a way that is supposed work to calibrate the AC output voltage using the dongle and a laptop but it did not work in this case.

AC sync problem dual xw4548

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