AC sync problem dual xw4548

b. ecologìcAllb. ecologìcAll Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭✭✭
This is my 4th installation and the first time I install two inverters in the same house.
I follow the manual

But, the second inverter always have F66 failure

this is the setup

Inv 01 master
Inv 02 slave

Also, two charge controllers
MPPT 01
MPPT 02

the trouble shooting guide just said to verify for configuration.

please advice what could be the problem
where to look
what to test

thanks

Comments

  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,167 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: AC sync problem dual xw4548

    Brands, models would help.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 28,605 admin
    Re: AC sync problem dual xw4548

    In title:

    dual xw4548

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,167 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: AC sync problem dual xw4548

    So the dual MPPT's are also XW60's ?

    Any SCP's ?
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • crewzercrewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: AC sync problem dual xw4548
    This is my 4th installation and the first time I install two inverters in the same house.
    I follow the manual

    But, the second inverter always have F66 failure

    this is the setup

    Inv 01 master
    Inv 02 slave

    Also, two charge controllers
    MPPT 01
    MPPT 02

    the trouble shooting guide just said to verify for configuration.

    please advice what could be the problem
    where to look
    what to test

    thanks

    Greetings from Burnaby (Vancouver), BC! Headin' home today.

    The F66 fault message indicates a "System Configuration Fault". Specifically, it means the multi-unit configuration settings are not correct.

    In addition to master and slave assignments, make sure each unit has its own unique device number, and also verify that "Connections" have been configured correctly. See pages 3-23 to -26 in the XW Operation Guide.

    Hope this helps,
    Jim / crewzer
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: AC sync problem dual xw4548

    As Jim said you have to give each device a unique number! It will not do it for you!
    It looks like you have done this but...
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • b. ecologìcAllb. ecologìcAll Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭✭✭
    Re: AC sync problem dual xw4548

    two years and still having problems with this dual inverter system
    originally, the F66 problem was resolve after removing one network terminator as xantrex tech support suggest (it was installed on the last charge controller, MPPT 02)

    but,
    now, from time to time, every 2 or 3 days, there is a power interruption of about 2 seconds
    I think the problem is when the second inverter (slave) goes from "stand-by" to "invert" or vice versa
    because if I shutdown the 2nd inverter, the power interruptions disappears

    configuration
    MPPT 01
    MPPT 02

    Inv 01 master
    Inv 02 slave

    one SCP

    all connected using xanbux
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 28,605 admin
    Re: AC sync problem dual xw4548

    Check wiring, connections between the inverters... Perhaps even try swapping your "spare" terminator for the one currently plugged in.

    Also, double check the DC voltages at the inverters (under heavy loads and/or under heavy charge) with an accurate volt meter and see that they are within the battery voltage range you expect.

    Since it used to work fine, and now does not--My first guesses are that a connection got dirty/connector is failing--Or the battery bank is and not up to the load for one or the other inverter.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • b. ecologìcAllb. ecologìcAll Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭✭✭
    Re: AC sync problem dual xw4548

    tks, going now to work on your suggestions
    the battery bank is made of 16 deka solar 8d
    8 new
    8 5 years old
    base on your assumption of battery voltage at the inverters be the problem, can the use of old batteries with new batteries be the problem?
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 28,605 admin
    Re: AC sync problem dual xw4548

    Mixing old + new batteries can be a problem--But mostly for the batteries themselves... You may have poor current sharing between the old and new strings (I would try really hard to avoid mixing old/new batteries in the same series string--the differences in performance would lead to poor equalization and possible "bad cell" taking out the rest of the string).

    It is possible that the old+new batteries are not sharing current properly and you might be having excessive voltage sag at the inverter (just guessing--obviously I have no knowledge of your system).

    However if the 5 year old batteries are otherwise working OK--It probably is not the problem.

    I would use a DC Current Clamp meter to measure the amperage in each parallel string (as well as measuring the voltage at each battery terminal set) and see if everything is (more or less) balanced--And you have nothing out of ordinary (poor current sharing, a battery or cell with too high or too low of voltage, wire or connection with high or low voltage drop, etc.)--I would begin to wonder if the inverter(s) is having a problem. If possible, I would switch the master/slave functions and see if the problem remains (being careful that I have spares available in case something fails during testing).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • b. ecologìcAllb. ecologìcAll Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭✭✭
    Re: AC sync problem dual xw4548

    all the cd and ac connections seems to be ok
    since the error logged was f66 configuration error, and obiusly there is no error on the configuration
    (just 3 f66 errors logged for the past 6 months, all the same day)
    i assume was may be a bad network cable
    so replaced all xanbus cables with cat5e shielded cables
    also replace the sync cable between the two XW inverters with a cat5e shielded cable

    i want to do that since the first f66 error two years ago
    but the xantrex tech support told me was not necessarily and was a waste of money to use shielded cables, so doing some trouble shooting back on those days the problems appears to be solved by removing the last terminator and after a few starups
  • 65DegN65DegN Solar Expert Posts: 106 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: AC sync problem dual xw4548
    now, from time to time, every 2 or 3 days, there is a power interruption of about 2 seconds
    I think the problem is when the second inverter (slave) goes from "stand-by" to "invert" or vice versa
    because if I shutdown the 2nd inverter, the power interruptions disappears

    You may have an internal transfer relay that is sticking particularly suspect when the problem is intermittant.
  • SolaRevolutionSolaRevolution Solar Expert Posts: 407 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: AC sync problem dual xw4548
    two years and still having problems with this dual inverter system...
    ...but,
    now, from time to time, every 2 or 3 days, there is a power interruption of about 2 seconds
    I think the problem is when the second inverter (slave) goes from "stand-by" to "invert" or vice versa
    because if I shutdown the 2nd inverter, the power interruptions disappears

    I've seen a problem show up on two different XW systems which may be the culprit.
    The trouble was that the two inverters' AC output voltage was calibrated slightly differently.

    The symptoms:
    -occasional brief power interruptions.
    -higher than expected idle current when inverters are parallel via AC Load breakers.
    -phantom load watts displayed on SCP but not being drawn from battery.
    -problems go away while only one inverter is in use. Any one inverter, doesn't matter which.
    -when charging reaches float, current of one XW falls off very fast and sometimes shows inverting to loads.

    Basically, the XW inverters were AC coupling. With the different callibrations one would actually "sell" to the other thru the AC output panel.

    In one system with 2 XW6048-60 120/240s, it was obvious because if the load breakers for both inverters were on, you could hear the transformer buzz get louder. It was making a loop of about 200 watts go out one inverter's AC Load connection and into the other inverter's AC load connection. The battery current would increase by only about half an amp @ 48 volt nom. The moment you turned off either AC load breaker the 200 watt loop would disappear.

    In a different system with 3 XW6048-60120/240s, the system seemed okay under normal use. The only thing that seemed strange was a high load idle current on the SCP. ( +/-190 watts) with all inverters on. When the parallel AC load output breakers were turned off, the 190 watts fell to about 90 watts on the SCP. The transformer buzz got quieter and the battery current decreased so little (<0.2)it was hard to measure with a clamp on amp meter. This system worked fine except for when the batteries reached float while running the generator. Two of the XWs would be charging and the other would be inverting as much as 1200 watts.

    If the generator had been started manually the f66 config error would sometimes show up. Sometimes a "low AC voltage" error would show too. If it was started by the AGS the inverters would automatically disconnect before the generator was shut down or the gen breaker was turned off.

    Tec support had me check all of my connections twice. They wanted me to rewire them from scratch until I sent them photos of the install with colored and labled wires running to each terminal. After making several 3 hour round trip drives, running a temporary phone land line to the power room and hours on tech support, Xantrex/Schneider replaced the 2 inverter system. The issue with the 3 inverter system is tolerable and the customer decided to just use the AGS. That's better for the system anyway.


    Alex Aragon

    PS: I'm still a fan of the XW system.:blush:


    BTW:
    Have you ever noticed that the Schneider tec support line hold music is a tune called "So what" ? :p
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X7NOh7lTf8&feature=related
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: AC sync problem dual xw4548

    Alex, I'm going to ask this even though it may sound like a very stupid question: were these parallel inverters communicating via the Xanbus or were they simply AC wired?

    I'm not sure how Xantrex's system works (and many of the ways it "works" absolutely mystifies me) but it would seem logical that if the right communication protocols were in place it ought to "know" it's got two inverters connected to the same AC circuits and adjust and act accordingly.

    I hate to sound like an Outback commercial but it does seem Xantrex has far more trouble just getting things to work than OB has ever had, whether inverters or charge controllers. As for their customer support ... your notation says it all. :roll:
  • SolaRevolutionSolaRevolution Solar Expert Posts: 407 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: AC sync problem dual xw4548
    were these parallel inverters communicating via the Xanbus or were they simply AC wired?

    I'm not sure how Xantrex's system works (and many of the ways it "works" absolutely mystifies me) but it would seem logical that if the right communication protocols were in place it ought to "know" it's got two inverters connected to the same AC circuits and adjust and act accordingly.

    I hate to sound like an Outback commercial but it does seem Xantrex has far more trouble just getting things to work than OB has ever had, whether inverters or charge controllers.

    They are Xanbus connected. That is the reason tec support kept telling me it was impossible for one to be charging while the other is inverting.

    Outback has it's share of shortcomings too. Don't get me wrong, I've gladly installed many FXs. The problem is that the Outback "FX" line is not on the same level as the XW for grid-tied systems. With a system limitation of 7.2kw (6074 watts max sell) and no second AC input for a generator and comparatively low surge current, there where just too many limitations to Outback's gear for many applications. Outback's "Radian" system has changed that. I have yet to install one. I've played around with my friend Wayne's Beta model and I like it so far. As for their Charge Controllers, I have no idea how many MXs and FXs I've had to send back for service. The greatest difference is how Outback handled it. One phone call with a warm body on the other end of the line (usually immediately) and a replacement was on the way. I pray that the "Alpha Group" doesn't blow it.

    I used to have "back door" phone numbers and the Xantrex forum for XW gear if I ever really needed it, so it worked for me. Not so much since Schneider.

    Gone are the days...:cry:

    The industry has been getting so corporate lately. Where are the humans? Who in management knows didly squat about how the gear works anymore?
    (Okay, besides Robin Gudgel of Midnite) 8)


    Alex Aragon

    BTW, regarding the trouble with the XW AC output:
    The other thing to check is the AC output voltage. When the AC output breakers were open, outputs of the inverters were different by a volt or two. We tried new firmware etc. There is a way that is supposed work to calibrate the AC output voltage using the dongle and a laptop but it did not work in this case.
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