Battery opions, Life cycle ratings what's been proven?

Currently running an XW4024 with a used C&D technologies 510 Ahr bank and an Air Breeze. I am grid interactive but NOT selling back to the grid(I do not plan on it either.) The poor old used batt bank is tired and its time to upgrade. As well I think my Air Breeze is a wee bit smaller than what I actually need. Thinking of upgrading to a Windmax 750W. Opinions on this as well would be great.
Everything is in the basement with easy access for venting FLA's.

Q: What is or has been reliable for everyone.
I have access to: Trojan, Surrette, Crown, and Global Yuassa.

Trojan J16RE-2V for 4700.00
Rolls Surrette 4KS-21P for 7200.00
Crown unsure of model for +/- 7000.00
Global Yuassa 85T-21 for 6900.00 (freight will kill me on this one)

At this point in time the Trojans seem like the best deal with the easiest accessablity.
GIVE ME THE 411, Thanks.

Comments

  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,311 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Battery opions, Life cycle ratings what's been proven?

    before i comment on the battery choices let me ask you if the c&d battery bank is agm or not? if your present c&ds are agm the ones you are proposing will not have the same charging efficiency as they will be worse being standard flas. standard flas also have maintenance not seen on agms. in any case c&d batteries are excellent batteries and i can assume they are now priced too high for you.
    in any case of battery choice, do try to have it has at least 5% of the ah rating as a minimum charge rate. if using this as a kind of backups then you may get away with a lower percentage, but i do not recommend under 3% ever.

    moving to your question.
    Global Yuassa- i am not familiar enough with them to say and we really don't hear much on them here. maybe some with them could chime in with comments.
    Rolls Surrette- a good battery, but we have seen some posts recently on the difficulties in reaching good specific gravities for all cells.
    Crown- another good battery.
    Trojan- a somewhat hefty generic type that performs well. they do have a narrower charge range % though and a good price.
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,380 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Battery opions, Life cycle ratings what's been proven?
    885kcdtq wrote: »
    The poor old used batt bank is tired and its time to upgrade.

    How old is the battery bank, and what did it receive for care / neglect ?
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • 885kcdtq885kcdtq Solar Expert Posts: 27
    Re: Battery opions, Life cycle ratings what's been proven?

    My current C&D's are an industial FLA forklift bank, cut out of the steel "crate" due to weight and carrying them into the basement. Do not know the age of them. Purchased used from a scrap dealer in town. All cells but 2 have come up to a SG of 1260. The 2 weak cells are starting to rise. Started at 1225 and has come up to 1240-1245.
    As far as any choice, I am not leaning in any one direction. Cheap is not always the best bang for the $$..(ie. I should have purchased a larger wind generator the first time. Lesson learned again for the millionth time.)
    My use is primarily backup at this point in time. Any additional power generated by my Air Breeze goes straight to household loads, not the grid. I am looking at a 1-2 KW solar install and turbine upgrade in the near future, so my choices are based on longetivity as well. Eventual goal is self sustaining..
    We just went through a 5 day power outage and we were getting extremely strapped for power by day 3. My turbine was running pretty consistant @ 100-140 watts. Not quite enough for a household of 5 in power managment training.
    Our saving grace gave us a couple hrs of grid power thankfully night #3. In -25*C
    it got a little scary. At least we stayed warm and faired better than some others in the area with no backup at all.
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,311 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Battery opions, Life cycle ratings what's been proven?

    don't sell the l16s short as they work well enough. they are popular here among many members and you can look through the forum to see that. if you are still having trouble deciding then it may come down to warranty or possibly dealer interaction as well as availability/shipping costs. for some batteries what you want may be within driving distance too.
    my general feel is for the trojans as you are still trying to bring a viable system together. any mistakes like undercharging the battery bank won't cost you as much to have lessons learned.
  • RCinFLARCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭
    Re: Battery opions, Life cycle ratings what's been proven?

    Not sure what you mean by "grid interactive" and "Our saving grace gave us a couple hrs of grid power thankfully night #3"

    Is your grid unreliable? How often and how much do you use battery power?

    If you are just doing UPS function (like me) AGM's may be a better choice. No watering and low float charging power consumption.
  • 885kcdtq885kcdtq Solar Expert Posts: 27
    Re: Battery opions, Life cycle ratings what's been proven?

    We had a 5 day outage. Ice and wind took out the power lines. Snapped poles off like toothpicks. Dropped the main transmission towers in places. Power crews managed to get the power up for a couple hrs but another line went down resulting in another 36 hrs +/- with no grid at all. As far as normal outages, I'd guess 20-30 per year. Some minor inconvenience and some like the last were major.
    I am connected to the grid. I am not selling to the grid, only using from the grid.
  • BrockBrock Solar Expert Posts: 633 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Battery opions, Life cycle ratings what's been proven?

    We will have to get Bill in here, but for your case I would suggest a small genset as "backup" a Honda EU2000i comes to mind, very fuel effecient, quiet and dependable. You could run that for 6 hours a day and double your "off grid" time and still keep thing locked up and quiet overnight.
    3kw solar PV, 8 L16's, xw 5548, Honda eu2000i, iota DLS-54-13, Leaf EV, 4 ton horizontal geothermal, grid tied - Green Bay, WI
  • 885kcdtq885kcdtq Solar Expert Posts: 27
    Re: Battery opions, Life cycle ratings what's been proven?

    OK Place your votes:

    If you had a choice what would it be ?
    What is your reasoning behind your decision?

    Rolls-surrette
    trojan
    Crown

    I can get all three an hour away 2-6 wks delivery from factory. Same batch and production dates guarenteed.
    For me , I'm shooting for all 2Volt cells in the 1100 ahr range and keep going in circles.
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Battery opions, Life cycle ratings what's been proven?

    Genset 1st, batteries second! IMHO. You have got to be able to cover the life essentials no matter what and if you can't charge your batteries it doesn't matter what they are.

    As for brand, I would go with the best local service dealer. I have always had good luck with Trojans, including their cheaper lines. I've never dealt with Rolls or Crown. Shipping might play a part in it as well.

    Tony
  • 885kcdtq885kcdtq Solar Expert Posts: 27
    Re: Battery opions, Life cycle ratings what's been proven?

    OK I get it .. GENSET FIRST.. It runs on fuel.. When you're out of gas, it's kinda like running out of battery? No. I have been thinking on that one reguardless..
    It really would have helped me out.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,518 admin
    Re: Battery opions, Life cycle ratings what's been proven?

    Agree, you need a genset (possibly even if you have solar) to "protect" your battery investment.

    If you have propane tank for your home, a propane generator (even a used RV 6kW Onan genset (gasoline or propane) would be pretty nice for backup power.

    I am a big believer in minimum loads (enough to keep alive, food safe, house warm enough using wood/propane/natural gas) and the genset is just big enough to keep things ticking...

    For my home, natural gas for cooking/heating and we are in a temperate climate (rare very hot or very cold days)--so I can get away with a eu2000i genset because I will probably average around 400 watts of loads--fridge/freezer, few lights, central heat--if needed). That will run almost 15 hours on 1.1 gallons of gasoline.

    A typical 10kW or larger "home emergency" genset will suck down the equivalent of a 1/2 or more of fuel (still with my 400 watt load)--With the small genset, 2 gallons per day--with the "large" genset, 12 gallons per day... If I need more power (for whatever), I still have a 5kW noise maker that I can use for those few hours when needed (or as an emergency backup to the small guy).

    So--you really need to measure you loads and size the battery bank and genset to your needs. Both gensets and battery banks have limited life times (aging--even if not operated heavily)--and over sized devices cost that much more to replace in 8-15 years down the road.

    We are all pretty practical folks here and don't want to see people spend way more than they need to for their basic needs.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • BrockBrock Solar Expert Posts: 633 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Battery opions, Life cycle ratings what's been proven?

    Sorry we keep going back to the genset idea; we just keep backing up and looking at the total picture.

    Going back to the original and intent of this thread if it were me I would go with the Trojans. When I was using flooded I had really good life with the plain T105's or golf cart size ones. Honestly as much as I like AGM's the cost of the flooded cells looks good. I am just now, after 4 years beginning to see signs of decline in my AGM's, which is great. But if the AGMs only last as long as flooded the cost might not be worth it. Having said that, thinking about it, venting, watering, cleaning, eq'ing and all that AGMs are nice.

    But if it were me I would go with the nice big Trojans, especially if you can get them locally. By the way I can't find J 16 RE's. I can find the 16RE's but not the J version what is different about them? Are those the ones with larger space above the plates for acid or is that just the RE version?
    3kw solar PV, 8 L16's, xw 5548, Honda eu2000i, iota DLS-54-13, Leaf EV, 4 ton horizontal geothermal, grid tied - Green Bay, WI
  • 885kcdtq885kcdtq Solar Expert Posts: 27
    Re: Battery opions, Life cycle ratings what's been proven?

    Our home in a dead state, with everyone out, our loads are +/- 50watts. My "normal" running loads equate to approx 200-500 watts with the wife and kids in the house, watching TV, cleaning etc. In our little situation I had us down to bare neccessities 100-300 watts, With a cooking increase to approx 2000 watts for about an hr/day. Kept a close eye on power consumption during meal preparation.
    As far as swapping out all my electrics to natural gas, We proved that we can survive with a microwave and a hot plate quite well. Winter time, it's not like the heat dissipation wasn't utilized in our home. I know it IS a waste of power resources when it's used for high current resitive loads.

    As with a solar upgrade I've read here that the minimum PV should be able to supply 10 % of the battery rated ahr. Could anyone confirm my understanding.
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 4,665 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Battery opions, Life cycle ratings what's been proven?

    It is all in the design and maintenance. You can screw up Trojans, Surrettes, and Crowns about the same! When your in the "sweet spot" there is a difference in the manufacturer. If you want to get long life (10-15 yrs.) you need to do everything correctly! Short of that just charge it off as expendable. It is not rocket science! I think the biggest problem you face is all the infomation that is out there. There is so much that people get confused. My little niche in the solar world is making it simple for people who could care less about all this but do not want any problems!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • BrockBrock Solar Expert Posts: 633 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Battery opions, Life cycle ratings what's been proven?

    Yes, you would like whatever you use to charge the battery bank to be a minimum of 5% with 10% being much better. That is strictly the battery size, not including loads if they are running. So if you have a minimum of say 200w running all the time you would want 10% of the battery bank + the 200 watts.
    3kw solar PV, 8 L16's, xw 5548, Honda eu2000i, iota DLS-54-13, Leaf EV, 4 ton horizontal geothermal, grid tied - Green Bay, WI
  • 885kcdtq885kcdtq Solar Expert Posts: 27
    Re: Battery opions, Life cycle ratings what's been proven?

    In my situation, In your opions, am I having a pipe dream as far as an 1100 ahr bank. My average consumption right now is approx 9500 -1400 W/day. I am still working on load reduction one room at a time. My goal is 9000 watts/day usage on the high end. Our consumption a year ago was averaging 24KW/day.

    As I said before in previous posts, I am looking at a larger wind generator in the 750-1000 watt range and 1-2 KW worth of solar.
    If may math is right and all my collected data is correct,:
    1 KW wind will supply : 4KW/day average
    2 KW Solar would supply: 6-10 KW/day depending on season.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,518 admin
    Re: Battery opions, Life cycle ratings what's been proven?

    I am not a fan of small wind... So take what I say with a grain of salt.

    Here is one thread where Windmax was discussed (nobody who actually installed one though).

    My question--using your existing turbine's data--do you have enough wind that you can count on daily production? Wind tends to be highly seasonal and related to local weather conditions. It would be a very rare site where you can count on daily wind power through the seasons.

    If you are getting a constant 100-140 watts from your Air Breeze--are you averaging 15-18 MPH winds at tower height? That is pretty impressive.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • 885kcdtq885kcdtq Solar Expert Posts: 27
    Re: Battery opions, Life cycle ratings what's been proven?

    In my area, I can count on a 75% output, 30-40% of the time.
    SO that calculates as:
    365 days/year x 24 hrs x 30%=2628 hrs running at 75% capacity.
    If I were to go with a 1KW that equates to:
    2620 hrs/year x 750 watts = 1971 KW / year.
    1971 / 365 days = 5400 watts / day..
    Now take into account an error factor and losses, that gets me about 4000 Watts/day averaged..
    My location is the same as most. Calm for 2-3 days, then a 2-3 days all out wind storm. Normally I can bank on 1 hr of wind at sunrise and 1 hr at sunset.
    Current tower height is 60 ft. working on another 10-15ft base extension.
    Total of 75 is my upper limit for height given the base I have under it. It's essentially a free standing, but I have added 4 guy wires @ 45 ft for added safety.
    Thanks for the thread on wind max. I was looking for something like that.
  • 885kcdtq885kcdtq Solar Expert Posts: 27
    Re: Battery opions, Life cycle ratings what's been proven?

    Calculation of the turbine formula for a given wind turbine at 30m
    Latitude = 49.660, longitude = -103.906
    Enter wind turbine data (all fields are required):
    Here is my data for my location.
    max power output (kW): 1.0
    cut-in wind speed (m/s): 3.0
    rated wind speed (m/s): 12.5



    Calculation for the data you entered (1,3.0,12.5):


    Period Power Output Energy Output Use factor
    Annual 0.29 kW 2.51 MWh/year 28.68 %
    Winter(DJF) 0.34 kW 0.75 MWh/period 34.08 %
    Spring (MAM) 0.27 kW 0.58 MWh/period 26.54 %
    Summer (JJA) 0.20 kW 0.44 MWh/period 20.28 %
    Fall (SON) 0.31 kW 0.69 MWh/period 31.32 %
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,518 admin
    Re: Battery opions, Life cycle ratings what's been proven?

    I am not sure what program/website you are using... But just using a normal wind map is usually at 50 meter height and you have 18 meter Hub Height... Using the Bergey's website (I used the Bergey 1kW excel worksheet), a derating for =30 meter to 18 meter is roughly 0.54...

    So, for your data, I would guess that your 20-34% * 0.54 = 11%-18% range...

    That corrected number would seem to be closer to a best case wind turbine rating... And the worst case is done to 2-3% of nameplate (obviously the site, installation, and hardware matter too).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • 885kcdtq885kcdtq Solar Expert Posts: 27
    Re: Battery opions, Life cycle ratings what's been proven?

    My own calculations are based on actual on site at tower height wind data I have collected and compiled over the last 2 yrs. Of course I did derate my calculations by 25% to be on the safe side.
    I expect 1.7-1.9 MW per year @ 22 meters.(75 feet) @ 1 KW

    The second wind data calculation was taken off of canada's wind atlas. As you can see it's only a ball park and will only calculate down to 30 M (100 feet) height @ 2.5 MW per year. @ 1 KW.
    I am going to take some pictures from a 1/2 mile away and post here. That should help to clarify the whole situation.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,518 admin
    Re: Battery opions, Life cycle ratings what's been proven?

    That is great that you have 2 years of data on your site!

    Not many people do and end up badly disappointed.

    Looking forward to see more about your installation and how well it ends up producing.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • 885kcdtq885kcdtq Solar Expert Posts: 27
    Re: Battery opions, Life cycle ratings what's been proven?

    Here's a pic from last year. Of course my cam decided to blow up last night. I blamed it on the kids.

    I envy my nabor up the hill with his 75 ft lattice. He has a better location than I do.
  • 885kcdtq885kcdtq Solar Expert Posts: 27
    Re: Battery opions, Life cycle ratings what's been proven?

    Any reccommendations on a good turbine in the 1 KW range. I've always been very anti-side furling for some reason. Low noise, self regulating, 3phase output with external regulator would be good. 24 Volt.
    Who's running what and what actually performs?
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