xw6048 question

Hey All,

Can the experts confirm if one had a xw inerter designed at 60Hz could one connect it to grid running at 50Hz to charge batteries alone throught the grid and not to sell. Would a set up like this work or would one have to get a 50Hz xw inorder to charge the batteries from the grid.

Cheers...
Damani

Comments

  • halfcrazyhalfcrazy Solar Expert Posts: 720 ✭✭✭
    Re: xw6048 question

    i dont think the xw will open that wide on frequency but a quick check in the online manual will tell you that if it will it should work?
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 31,179 admin
    Re: xw6048 question

    Do you want "60 Hz" inside your home? Or do you want 50 Hz power?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • DapdanDapdan Solar Expert Posts: 313 ✭✭
    Re: xw6048 question

    Hey BB,

    The local company supplies 115v, 50Hz but 80% of appliances use here are from USA and so are 60Hz. Therefore I am interested in running at 60Hz since I have no intension of grid tie when it becomes available in the next 2-5yr.


    According to the manual it say:

    "AC input frequency range (bypass/charge mode) 55 - 65 Hz (default); 44 - 70 Hz (allowable)"

    I am not sure how to interpret this.

    Cheers...
    Damani
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: xw6048 question

    You want to use the supplied 50 Hz power to run the Xantrex's built-in battery charger, right?

    I'd interpret the "44-70 Hz" rating as: expect the transformer to run hot with the frequency outside its optimum rating. This probably wouldn't be a problem as long as you don't expect the charger to run at full capacity and only use it when the sun doesn't shine.

    I'm not a Xantrex expert though. They may have other ideas (voids warranty, etc.)
  • RCinFLARCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,334 ✭✭✭
    Re: xw6048 question

    You can't have both unless you are willing to shut down all outputs from XW when charging.

    The XW charger and inverter are one circuit. Charger is just the inverter in 'backwash'.

    If AC1 or AC2 is present the inverter will syncronize (within its capture freq range) to it.

    You can do a survey of items within your house that are not okay with 50 Hz and avoid their use when charging.

    Syncronous motors (refrig, washer, etc)
    Florescent lights with inductive ballast
    Units powered with 60 Hz transformers

    You might look for a transverter, like 50 Hz electric motor driving a 60 Hz generator.
    You can use the XW to load shave the transverter to achieve higher peak power output.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: xw6048 question

    Or buy a separate, stand-alone battery charger that can take 50 Hz. Like this:
    http://www.iotaengineering.com/dls4820.htm

    (No doubt available through NAWS as they carry Iota.)
  • RCinFLARCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,334 ✭✭✭
    Re: xw6048 question

    External charger would be fine just make sure it can exceed your average XW AC ouput load power. The 20 amp charger is about 1kW which would be okay if you don't exceed about 17 to 22 kW-hrs per day of consumption.

    Make sure charger is big enough to keep you from going negative on net charge on batteries.

    Little problem with IOTA charge spec of max voltage of 47.8 vdc at maximum 20 amp load and its efficiency spec. Many separate chargers don't expect to have to put out maximum current at battery float voltage.

    You could always get a second XW to do charging/dc loading supply. That makes the transverter. Not sure what "44 Hz to 70 Hz allowable" means in XW spec. Try it on yours first. It might not like (overheat alarm shutdown) a continuous high power charging output from a 50 Hz feed. The transformer sizing was based on 60 Hz nominal. I would guess that it will support at least a 2kW d.c. output continously from 50 Hz source.
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,099 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: xw6048 question
    Or buy a separate, stand-alone battery charger that can take 50 Hz. Like this:
    http://www.iotaengineering.com/dls4820.htm

    (No doubt available through NAWS as they carry Iota.)

    For 48VDC charging, use the DLS-54.4-15

    Gotta have the higher voltage to charge the battery. But it's only 15A !
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • RCinFLARCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,334 ✭✭✭
    Re: xw6048 question
    Dapdan wrote: »
    Hey BB,

    The local company supplies 115v, 50Hz


    Just to be sure. You are aware XW needs 230 vac, will not charge or syncronize from 115 vac.

    It checks for both L1 and L2 legs to neutral are present before engaging.
  • DapdanDapdan Solar Expert Posts: 313 ✭✭
    Re: xw6048 question

    RC and All,

    My local supply is 115v, 50Hz and despite this all appliance works even though most of them tend to be for the US market. The main problem I found over the years is that I had to change my flyback transformer for my Sony Wega twice. Computers are no problem since they are both 50/60Hz supply. The fridge when bought the merchant insisted that a transfromer to do drop the voltage down to to 105v else the warranty would not be honoured. The fridge required 60Hz supply. When I bought my current inverter I got one that could switch between 50 and 60Hz and set it for 60Hz so that the transformer for the fridge could be removed and the clock on the stove could keep time and I would have no more problems with the television. In respect of charging it would be only necessary when I would be performing my IOVR+ process on my GNB batteries. I dont need a charger since I have enough PV and Ah to keep my house going and I have been doing that since Sep 08.

    Oh yeah the is wire at 3wire single phase. So yes I would be sending L1, L2 and N.

    Cheers....
    Damani
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: xw6048 question
    Dapdan wrote: »
    RC and All,
    The fridge when bought the merchant insisted that a transfromer to do drop the voltage down to to 105v else the warranty would not be honoured. The fridge required 60Hz supply.

    :confused: Why would dropping the Voltage help when the frequency is off? The problem with running a 60 Hz motor off 50 Hz is that it will run slower, hotter, less efficiently, and produce less HP. Reducing the Voltage would only aggravate the problem. Worst-case scenario is when the motor won't ramp up to enough speed to cut-out starting windings. Burns up quickly then.
    Oh yeah the is wire at 3wire single phase. So yes I would be sending L1, L2 and N.

    Er, wouldn't 3 wire single phase with L1, L2 and N be 230 VAC @ 50 Hz? I don't know; foreign power systems always confuse me.
  • DapdanDapdan Solar Expert Posts: 313 ✭✭
    Re: xw6048 question

    Carib,

    yes that would be 230v and also 115. L1-N = 115, L2-N =115 and L1-L2 230v.

    I agree with you Carib it doesnt help the motor much whilst running off 50Hz when it should be 60Hz that is why I set my inveter to 60Hz and why I want a 60Hz machine for my next inverter upgrade (which maybe the xw6048 hence why I am quering this now). I guess some ppl think reducing the voltage the fridge gets may reduce the stress on the motors/compressor. I am not an electrical engineer so I am not sure.

    Cheers...
    Damani
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 31,179 admin
    Re: xw6048 question

    It is a mixed bag... 50Hz generates less "impedance" (AC resistance) to electric flow in inductive devices vs 60 Hz (higher frequency, the more resistance to current flow).

    So, dropping the voltage would "seem" to drop current flow. And since heating is P=I^2 * R (I squared R)... Keeping current down reduces heating a lot...

    However, you are dealing with a motor... Dropping voltage causes the current to want more current because it makes work on P=I*V ... And since the loads on a motor are not generally related to voltage -- a motor that "sees" low voltage and will want more current, not less, to generate the same power at the end of the shaft.

    Another complicating factor--is the fact that the motor is turning at 50Hz, not 60 Hz (1,500 RPM vs 1,800 RPM)... So for a fixed load device like a refrigerator, the shaft is turning slower (against the same torque, or even slightly less torque) -- you are sort of derating the output power requirments from the motor. Which will reduce its current draw. With the reduced current draw required for rotational power, then reducing the voltage MAY reduce the excess currents caused by running a 60Hz motor on 50Hz.

    Of course, the motor will have to be "ON" more in a 50Hz setting because it is doing less cooling (because the compressor is turning slower).

    All of this is a lot of hand waving --- I don't know that reducing voltage to a 60Hz fridge is a good or bad thing. I can see both sides.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: xw6048 question

    Thanks, Bill. I thought I was going crazy. Again. Your caveats about reducing the Voltage to a motor are just what I would expect to happen, and I've had some experience with motors. Never reducing Voltage @ 50 Hz though. Doesn't make sense in my opinion.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 31,179 admin
    Re: xw6048 question

    Running a 50Hz motor on 60Hz can be OK... However, the mechanical thing it is driving may turn too fast and get damaged...

    In another life, I used to repair IBM Selectric Typewriters (the ones with a little ball for a print head--typewriters, sort of like mechanical printers with a keyboard directly attached and no memory/processor :p )...

    Had a guy that brought one from Holland and was using a 120/230 VAC step-up transformer... The typewriter was "real responsive" but would fail to type correctly once in a while... Pop on a replacement motor drive pulley with one less tooth--and everything worked great.

    A fridge with a sealed compressor--no good way for a mechanical fix or motor replacement.

    In the end, if it seems to work well for many customers (long life, cold beer)--who am I to argue...

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: xw6048 question

    Historical anecdote:

    Canada used to have 50 Hz power. When the decision was made to tie into the 60 Hz grid of the US, fleets of red trucks were sent out all over to change motors et cetera so that everyone could use the upcoming 60 Hz.

    Frankly, I have a vague recollection of this happening in the 1950's but I can't find any reference to it on the net. Maybe I imagined it. Like those giraffes hiding out there in the woods. :confused:
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