Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

easytim

Has anyone bought the Golf Car battery sold at SAMS

I heard they sold them, just looking for an opinion about them

mshen11

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

went to 2 of my local SAMS this weekend, neither had any

halfcrazy

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

I have had 3 customers use them and they where half the cost of the ones i use. so far they seem to work ok but i worry they are doing something to cut the cost. i have not tested capacity but it feels like to me they dont have the capacity they claim they do.

Photowhit

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

I'm using Golf Cart batteries I bought at Sam's. They are EverReady Branded.

Mine are 4 years old and still working. Ran and Ac a couple hours(Duty time) a night on them this summer. I think they are loosing some capacity but I use an expected life of 3 years for these and was happy they made it through this (somewhat mild) summer.

I would be careful when buying, they allow them to sit on the shelf for quite a while. The local Sams had batteries that were older than I was willing to buy, 3-4 months old. I was making a trip across the state and found batterys manufactured the current month at a different Sams. This manufactured month is on the side of the battery.

I have a much larger array now then when I first purchased this set we'll see if they make it through another summer! If I had to replace them today I would be looking for double the capacity for my Array (minimum I went from 220 watts to 1250!) After summer I really don't usemuch current at all, I started the breadmaker thread looking for ways to use all the extra current.

I think these had a slightly lower amp hour rating than Trojans 210 amp hours?

Trojans were almost twice the cost locally and a bit more than half again if I drove to St Louis. Currently I would either go with 2 sets(of 4) of the Sams golf cart Batteries at $71 each or 1 set of L-16 trojans which I can get at $210 each currently Staab battery in St Louis.

FWIW - Batterys are 1 string of 4, I put 2 - battery desulfators on this 3 years ago when I moved and increased the array to @1000 watts, I also was letting my C60 charge controler equalize them each month until this summer when I had some inverter issues with an old inverter that didn't like current over 30 volts and kept kicking out. I have since not been able to flash the C60 back into equalizing mode.

solorone

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

I will qualify my post by saying that my experience with GCB is 26 years old, but I do not think much has changed.

I would suggest you do some deep research of golf cart batteries (GCB) if you are planning on using an inverter.

I was told not to use them, that they would not last. Like advice from my father, I ignored it, seems we always have to learn for ourselves.

Batteries are engineered for a particular use, and GCB are designed to give up the necessary power that is needed for the cart, no more no less, and this is a known load range, unlike what you are going to be drawing with an inverter.. Inverter loads can momentarily hit 600 amps, with out any trouble, and you can not see it on a Fluke amp meter, it is not quick enough, I have personally seen it run up to 470 Amps, before the load display disappeared.

My point is you will go through many different battery setups before you finally realize you are wasting money. At the very least I would get Trojan L 16s these will give you 4/5 years of reliable service.
One of best is the Surette Rolls Royce brand, but they are not cheap and neither is your time and material for setting up the bank. If you are in a planning stage, allow plenty of room to expand the battery bank in the future.

Kamala

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

There has been no mention, so far, in this thread regarding loads. It is very difficult to evaluate the performance of any component while not knowing what it is expected to do!

To say that "Inverter loads can momentarily hit 600 amps..." without specifying planned/expected loads isn't very helpful. 600A X 12V = 7.2 kW! I understand that this may be "start-up" loading, but we don't know.

For myself, and it is just for myself, I have come to think of "golf cart" as a battery size rather than suited to the application of powering a golf cart. I have a bank of East Penn 8AGC2s. A for AGM and GC for golf cart because of the size. That is, physical dimensions. They are actually an RE battery. If I am not mistaken, Trojan T105s, a standard in RE apps, are GC dimensioned batts.

Previous post regarding the "freshness" of products offered by SAMS should be heeded.

Craig

Cariboocoot

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

Right on, Craig!

T105's are "golf cart" batteries. The truth is, good electro-motive force batteries (true deep cycle) are fine in RE applications as they are designed to be repeatedly deeply discharged/recharged. A poor quality battery is a poor quality battery, no matter what its size or intended use.

To really judge these Wal-mart wonders, you'd have to put them in a parallel test with equivalent batteries from other manufacturers: identical loading, charging, maintainence. This is one area where "field data" isn't much use, as you never really know if the battery has been heavily loaded, improperly recharged, or poorly maintained.

Not to fault these batteries specifically nor anyone who is using them, but there's a lot of people who use their systems lightly whereas many others make heavy demands on their banks. Lower quality batteries may work well for years in the first application, but give up quickly in the second.

Photowhit

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

Yes, I too, think of GolfCart as a size, indeed an L16 in the central US is considered a floor scrubber battery, their most typical use...

I, on the other hand, am from coastal Florida, where L16's are a boat battery. Which made for some short term confusion when I first came to Solar Forums, about boat batteries not being real deep cycle!

I've often heard the rule of thumb that Golf Cart batteries are reliable for 3-4 years, L-16's for 5-7 years. Trojan / Premium(Rolls) batteries a bit longer and they have a good rep.

Once I started running an AC off the single set of golf cart batts, I didn't expect more than 3 years service, but the rest of the year they have a very easy life! Indeed, I've though of taking down half my panels to reduce the degradation from sun light, as I use so little. So really only 6-8 weeks when they are drawn down to 50% DOD on a regular basis and close to 80% perhaps 4-6 times a year (though only 2x this year that I can recall) Also they have only weathered 3 summers of this as it was fans only their first summer (on 220 watts of panels)

tallgirl

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

I think some of the comments about current and battery life are why 48 volt systems are far superior to 12 volt systems. My old fridge had a 30A @ 120VAC inrush current. That's 300A @ 12V plus conversion losses. At 48VDC it's much more manageable.

Cariboocoot

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

30A @ 120 VAC?! My 1 HP sump pump doesn't do that!
There must have been something wrong with it. Good thing you got rid of it. What a monster!

Windsun

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

Photowhit wrote: »

I, on the other hand, am from coastal Florida, where L16's are a boat battery. Which made for some short term confusion when I first came to Solar Forums, about boat batteries not being real deep cycle!

I don't believe that anyone ever said that "boat" batteries were not deep cycle. What has been said, and what have said for many years is that "marine" batteries quite often (nearly always) not deep cycle.

"Marine" is a marketing term, deep cycle is a technical term.

JESSICA

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

I have 4 of them, and after 2 years no problems whatsoever.
I paid $72 each, in Puerto Rico.

tallgirl

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

Cariboocoot wrote: »

30A @ 120 VAC?! My 1 HP sump pump doesn't do that!
There must have been something wrong with it. Good thing you got rid of it. What a monster!

Are you sure your pump doesn't? Assuming perfect efficiency, that 1HP pump is 755 watts at whatever voltage you're using. Of course, it isn't perfectly efficient, and assuming a power factor of .7, apparent power is likely WAY higher than 755 watts (755 / .7 = about 1100VA), while running, making it even easier to reach that 30A figure.

Since inrush and locked rotor current tend to be moderately close instantaneously, I'm betting you are seeing something close to 3.6KW momentarily, unless you have a slow start setup or are using 3-phase. Put a scope or recording meter on the circuit -- you might just be surprised.

tallgirl

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

Windsun wrote: »

I don't believe that anyone ever said that "boat" batteries were not deep cycle. What has been said, and what have said for many years is that "marine" batteries quite often (nearly always) not deep cycle.

"Marine" is a marketing term, deep cycle is a technical term.

"Marine" batteries tend to fall between SLI and deep cycle. They need SLI characteristics for motor starting, and deep cycle for running lights, radios, etc. that may still be needed when the motor isn't running.

System2

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

I bought 8 Sam's Club batteries for my Grid-tied system. As "starter" batteries I'm glad I did. For 1/2 the cost of my desired battery set I'll be able to "work out the bugs" and "practice".
My Sam's had fresh dates during the golfing season (I think that's when they sell the most of this style).
So far I give them a thumbs-up but there not perfect (at half the price I think I got good value).

Dave
(gasmandave)

RCinFLA

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

You can always count on a passionate discussion on battery types.

My system has two SW4048's and two SW5548+ units. It is primarily used as a whole house UPS setup and only during hurricane outage do I run the batteries down to 50-60% SOC. I am not running off-grid so not as critical to deep cycle.

With my application I view batteries as a Hover versus Electrolux vacuum cleaner situation (if your are old enough to understand the comparison). Electrolux last twice as long and cost three times as much.

Easy procurement and cost are up on my list. I started out about 11 years ago with eight Delco Voyager class 27 batteries. I added 'battery packs' over time and presently have ten parallel strings of four series batteries. I have 100 amp shunts on each of the ten parallel strings to keep tabs on string balance.

The first Voyager finally went high resistance after eight and half years (positive grid corrosion). I have four still going after 11 years. They are 'maintanance free' VRLA batteries. They always failed with high resistance which doesn't damage the other three in the string. Needless to say I was very happy with the Delco Voyager batteries.

My source, K-Mart, stopped carrying Delco Voyagers so I tried the Wally World Maxx class 30. The first one went cell short after four and half years. It damaged the other three in the string due to overcharging on float charge.

I only have to water them about once a year (lead-calcium type doesn't use much water) but I got spoiled from the VRLA Voyager's and it is a hassle to do all thoses batteries.

Jury still out on these Wally World batteries. I have not been impressed with variability of the Wally World batteries. I alway check date code and battery voltage before buying. I charge them and check SG. I have had some with as high as 1.305 SG and low as 1.258 SG after fully charging them after purchase. Also fill level varies from battery to battery. Just seems like poor quality control. The case design looks like Inter-state battery as their primary supplier.

I will likely go for AGM's in the future, that's over $10K for forty class 29's. The original Delco Voyagers I would catch on sale at $59.95 each, but that was 10-11 years ago. Wally World just raised their price on Maxx class 30's.

2manytoyz

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

I bought golf cart batteries at BJ's Wholesale Club. These were Exide GC-135 batteries. Cost at the time was $79. Rated at 6V, 226 AH (20 hr rate).

The batteries were fresh (dates right on the batteries), and have been in use a couple of years. They are doing very well, and I periodically measure the specific gravity to verify this.





Got six of them so far. My local supplier still carries this brand, but a lower capacity model. Going to pester them soon to see if I can still get the larger model.

As for in rush current, this is HARD to measure. Most ammeters are not quick enough to capture the peak. I bought a Fluke model 334 meter for this specific feature.



My 5000 BTU window shaker pulls 22.6 Amps to start, then under 5 Amps to run.

My Dewalt Emglo 120VAC air compressor (air tank drained), pulls 53.8 Amps:



The 13,500 BTU A/C unit on my travel trailer pulls 50.5 Amps starting, 10.5 Amps running.

I haven't tested my refrigerators yet, but that's coming. Curious to see how my numbers compare.

bryanl

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

"Marine" is a marketing term, deep cycle is a technical term.

OK, "deep cycle" means a cycle going down to below 20% SoC, but what is its definition when applied to batteries?

From the FAQ, there is no clear distinction on battery life indicated by a battery being called "deep cycle", AFAIK there is no specification published for batteries that has a clear marker for deep cycle on one side and non deep cycle on the other.

"deep cycle" applied as a battery descriptor only seems to mean that they favor the 'ruggedness' end of the ruggedness, capacity, cost trade-off triangle. It is a matter of degree, not kind. - or is there some measure I am missing?

Just Me

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

We need Myth Busters to test every battery available to see which one is the best battery for each application.

Anybody have a Myth Buster login?

RCinFLA

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

Short definition for deep cycle is thick plates. Thick plates comes with negative of poor weight and size for capacity.

Discharging converts lead into lead-sulfate 'fuzz' on plate with the electrolyte sulfuric acid converted to water. Charging reverses the process unless the lead-sulfate is left long enough to crytalize which is tough to breakdown back to lead.

Lead is structually poor so there is a metal alloy support grid or tubular structure within the lead (or lead oxide) plate.

Discharging and recharging is like getting cut and rehealing with some scaring left on the plates. The ultimate destructive effect is to discharge to point where supporting grid is intruded upon. The result is a very non-uniform base on which to regrow the lead. Results in a severely mutated plate structure. A starting class auto battery is very vunerable to this over discharge because the plates are so thin. Leave your headlights on all day while at work and battery will not likely recover.

Deep cycle batteries have so thick plates that the electrolyte acid content is exhaused long before the grid structure is intruded upon. Over time with repeated discharging and recharging the plate mutation will drop off chunks of plate which usually make their way to bottom of cell. The deeper the discharge the more mutated the recharged plate.

As the plates mutate and warp they put pressure on the separator which if breached will likely result in short between neg and pos plates and a shorted or leaky cell.

Even a well maintained battery will finally succumb to positive plate grid corrosion resulting in high resistance connection in the support grid. The positive grid is usually first to go because it is bathed in oxygen in the top off charge state. A lot of equalization can accelerate grid corrosion. Water consumption is indicator of how much oxygen and hydrogen gas was created. The gassing rate really accelerates when the cell voltage gets above 2.37 vdc (7.1 vdc for three cell battery)

Kamala

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

RC,

That was an excellent description of LA battery chemistry. I particularly liked the cut/healing/scaring analogy.

No myth here to be "busted."

Cariboocoot

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

I agree.

Can we "pin that up somewhere" so it doesn't get lost? It's a masterful explanation of the whole battery charge/discharge process in respect to the actual chemical reactions going on.

Very well written!

bryanl

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

re "Short definition for deep cycle is thick plates." - what you are saying is that there is no definition for "deep cycle" that is worth a hoot as far as anything measurable. There is nothing that marks a boundary between deep cycle and not deep cycle or between deep cycle and true deep cycle. That means that, as many use the term. it is meaningless or even misleading.

From the description it suggests that you should be able to tell how much emphasis a battery places on the 'deep cycle' corner of the trade-off triangle by looking at energy density by weight. The last time I took Trojan's line card and put it into a spreadsheet, such a distinction was not there. The differences in energy weight density were insignificant when compared to other influences on battery energy capacity.

What that tells me is that modern lead acid battery manufacturing is a mature technology and rather well optimized. The need to expose lead to acid for maximum capacity, obtaining a proper strength in the plates to avoid failure due to shock or corrosion, and the 'tuning' of the chemical reaction to avoid undesired outcomes such as gassing are reasonably well understood and techniques defined. There really isn't a whole lot of variance from one end of what is reasonable (and cost effective) to the other in tuning the parameters for a particular need. (with due caveat to the context)

To me this is why the FAQ suffers a bit in coherence. The measures it cites do not fit well with the generalizations it emphasizes on this issue. (then go see the RV page to really get confused!)

If you are looking for hard numbers about what deep cycle represents, it also appears to me that you are bound to be disappointed. There must be a reason why measures for 'deep cycleness' are not readily available; why you don't see cycle ratings in common spec sheets; why warranties have more to do with how a battery is likely to be used than with the battery itself.

From what I can tell, battery life is most significantly influenced by usage and maintenance management. The factors that are involved are well known. Yes, you do need to select batteries that are built for the job you intend to do but the talk about deep cycle as if there are "true" varieties and 'false' ones doesn't help anyone IMHO.

I think we'd do a lot better in battery discussions if we separated conceptual things like deep cycle from measurable things. The conceptual things are nice to get a handle on understanding what we are talking about. The measurable things we need in order to design our systems and make effective choices. When the two overlap, we get into misperceptions about precision and accuracy and weighting of variables that tend towards poor decision making.

Cariboocoot

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

The short definition of deep cycle is thick plates. That isn't speculation, opinion, or marketing hype. The thicker the plates, the more and deeper cycling a battery will take before failure. RC's description of the internal chemical processes is entirely accurate.

There's nothing anyone can do about marketing hype. They can claim anything as there are no official or even industry standards. As I've said before, if the company/seller isn't willing to give you the info you need to determine how well a particular battery will function in RE then it probably isn't a good choice.

Don't confuse the label of "Deep Cycle" with the function.

And lets not have any arguments over it, please?

stephendv

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

bryanl wrote: »

If you are looking for hard numbers about what deep cycle represents, it also appears to me that you are bound to be disappointed. There must be a reason why measures for 'deep cycleness' are not readily available; why you don't see cycle ratings in common spec sheets; why warranties have more to do with how a battery is likely to be used than with the battery itself.

Most deep cycle batteries on this side of the bond are rated according to specific IEC, EN or DIN standards. Standard EN/IEC 60896-21 for example, tells you how many cycles of 80% DoD to expect. Most OPzS or PzS traction batteries will state this in their spec sheets.

Here's a discussion of the testing procedures for that standard.

bryanl

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

re "Don't confuse the label of "Deep Cycle" with the function."

all I want is something I can see in the specifications, something that can be measured reliably.

The Giess paper is a good start. Why is it that such data isn't readily available to retail consumers? Why is it that the many threads about "deep cycle" don't refer to its standards and how they apply to particular needs? Why is the available material on the parameters so limited and any insight into the distribution of actual batteries by the measure not available? Why does the data that is available not match the assertions often made in these discussions?

And lets not have any arguments over it, please?

Then let's avoid tossing out measures that don't have substance. There is no disagreement to argue about here, the plea is to get good, clear, and objective meanings behind words in order to enhance a proper understanding.

My point is that "deep cycle" is often used improperly and in a misleading manner. It is not a clearly defined term when used as an attribute of the batteries most of us use. I am not trying to argue, I am asking "show me the useful measure that really makes a difference".

Cariboocoot

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

bryanl wrote: »

My point is that "deep cycle" is often used improperly and in a misleading manner. It is not a clearly defined term when used as an attribute of the batteries most of us use. I am not trying to argue, I am asking "show me the useful measure that really makes a difference".

You've got it!

If they won't/can't tell you the info you need to judge it as a "true" deep cycle the chances are it isn't one.

Marketers like to look at it from a "relative" POV: the RV/Marine "Deep Cycle" is 'more' of a deep cycle than an SLI. They just leave off the part about it's not being up to RE capability.

In fairness, it's hard to judge a battery's performance because there are so many factors involved. Ambient temperature, how it's discharged, how it's recharged while in use are all uncontrollable variables for the manufacturer. Thus they're not going to go out on a limb and say "This battery can be discharged to 20% 10,962 times without failure or loss of capacity". The best they can do is give comparative numbers based on controlled laboratory conditions.

Surrette makes arguably the best batteries. Look at the specs they're willing to give:

http://www.surrette.com/content/renewable-energy-specifications-wind-solar

And they're willing to answer questions:

http://www.surrette.com/content/renewable-energy-bulletins-solar-wind

If you're not getting this level of info from a battery seller/manufacturer, you're taking a gamble. If you know that going in, it may/may not be worth the difference in price. Your call.

RCinFLA

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

Everytime I look at the 25PS series positive plate thickness of 0.275" I am just amazed.

That is a thick plate!!

bryanl

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

re "Look at the specs they're willing to give:" - not much different from any other line card I've seen and nothing near the Giess paper idea. The only measure for life (what deep cycle is all about) is the warranty. There are sufficient capacity measures to determine a Peukert coefficient but you can also get that from the 20 hour and 25 amp measures normally provided with any battery. I need to see if I can find my spec spreadsheet so I can calculate weight energy density for these but the range appears to be about the same. The warranty is what tells you the 'deep cycle' story (as well as the expected use story).

re "Everytime I look at the 25PS series positive plate thickness" - this sounds like a 50's car enthusiast commenting on the tail fins ... ;-)

re "not being up to RE capability" - is there a good definition for this? I assume it is talking about a load or use profile. Where I stumble in any lead acid battery energy storage is trying to balance diurnal cycles with necessary charge times with the known drop-off in life expectancy from 50% SoC to 20% and with the drop off in life expectancy in float service. Then there is the problem of trying to classify energy draw peak and average compared to bank impedance and battery design. - from Surrette's warranty, it appears that the expected RE use profile is a daily discharge to about 75% SoC at less than the 20 hour rated energy draw with prompt charging and a narrow distribution.

mshen11

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

is there anyone in NoVA (fairfax county) that has access to sams club (woodbridge has it)? unfortunately im a costco person. am contemplating on sams' battery:

scenerio 1 (sams):
* $0.64/amphr
* golf cart batteries
* 1 year full warranty but nothing after
* have to pay $45 memberhip fee
* 6V - so have to buy in pairs - also need one extra wire for interconnect

scenerio 2 (costco):
*$0.59/amphr
* deep cycle batteries
* 3 year full warranty but nothing after
* 12V

very tough call

Kamala

Re: Golf Car BATTERIES at SAMS?

The data sheet for my East Penn 8AGC2's does have a bar graph showing number of cycles for different DoD.

http://www.visi.com/~ch3dietz/solar/8AGC2.pdf

Also note that they don't call it deep cycle.