Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

raytech

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

BB. wrote: »

We don't want to go there again, do we... :roll:

-Bill

about a year ago

Cariboocoot

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

raytech wrote: »

this is exactly the type of statement I was referring to.

how do you know this to be true?

I believe for the same price, i can build a better panel. and i will learn a lot along the way.

Because many, many other have been there, done that, almost burned the house down sometimes.

Do the research and you come to the truth. As a learning tool, building your own is fine. But it will NOT have the commercial quality available in a purchased panel. Mind you, some of those can be absolute junk - worse than build-it-yourself.

Please read all of the related threads and see that this is not the opinion of one, but the fact born of the experiences of many.

This site truly isn't about "pushing product": it's about trying to give people the right information and the benefit of others' experiences.

mike95490

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

raytech wrote: »

I believe for the same price, i can build a better panel. and i will learn a lot along the way.

I'll agree with the 2nd part of that statement.

As to the first, my great great grandfather was from Missouri, so Show Me.

It is a difficult task, but possible. Most plastics, epoxies and silicone sealers
are water vapor permeable. Water is the major problem, likely followed by
thermal coefficients (expansion) and solder joint quality/corrosion/whiskers. Those
are the major difficult obstacles to overcome in a home workshop.
Passing the 600V test , may rank up there too.

raytech

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Because many, many other have been there, done that, almost burned the house down sometimes.

Do the research and you come to the truth. As a learning tool, building your own is fine. But it will NOT have the commercial quality available in a purchased panel. Mind you, some of those can be absolute junk - worse than build-it-yourself.

Please read all of the related threads and see that this is not the opinion of one, but the fact born of the experiences of many.

This site truly isn't about "pushing product": it's about trying to give people the right information and the benefit of others' experiences.

how can you make such a statement? Tell Carrol Shelby or Jack LaLanne the same thing you just stated.

IF that statement were true, think of the things that wouldn't exist.

dwh

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

raytech wrote: »

wow, i almost feel a little hostility there. (but a lot is lost in type (i hope))

I have just completed my first (2) panels. are they commercial quality? absolutely not. it is my first time. are they going to last 20+ years? absolutely not (well ya never know). it is my first time. did they cost me $4.30 per watt? absolutely not.

am i going to mount them on my roof? are you crazy? these are for camping

all said and done, i have 140 watts with charge controller and enough cells left for another 70 watts for just over $250. that is with a 400 watt inverter for the camper.

like i said (in a round about way). i don't KNOW i am right.

Well, you've pretty much just summed up the whole issue right there...

You are a "hobbyist". Your home made panels are "hobby" panels.

You have to understand, regulars in this forum are pretty much on a hair trigger due to all the "build your own panels and run your meter backward" B.S. which is spammed all over the interwebs.

Can a hobbyist build their own panels?
Absolutely.

Will they run their house from home made panels?
Highly doubtful.

Will they run their meter backward with home made panels?
No.
As soon as the utility company sees that home made hobby stuff connected to their nice big professional grid - they'll cut that house right off their grid.


Can a hobbyist build their own airplane?
Absolutely.

Will they make a living with that airplane?
Highly doubtful.

Will they carry commercial passengers in a home made airplane?
Nope.

They will have a nice little "experimental" class aircraft and might even have a lot of fun with it.


Home made PV panels are pretty much the same - fun to play with, might even get a little useful work done with them - but that's about it.

Also, you didn't include the value of your time in your accounting of what your 140 (or 210) watts cost you. Once you do that, your hobby panels probably cost you as much or more than commercially made panels.

BB.

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

No hostility was intended--Mostly it was an honest question (with a tinge of frustration)... We have multiple threads (that was just one set of threads from one brand-new, at the time, poster) where we got well into the details of how to build solar arrays and links to lots of different sources.

I was just trying to get to the point o you asking your question(s) and/or show what you have done so far and not to dwell on the negative comments about DYI solar PV panels--As I was trying to demonstrate that the threads listed (the most recent set of threads about DYI panels) were not full of posts by me saying "No no no--it can't be done..."

Honestly, you are not the first person (nor will you be the last person) to make comments about negative comments when questions are asked about how to XYZ...

For the most part, at least for me, I try to answer the questions asked--I.e., how can I make solar panels for less than $2 per watt... And my typical answer is you can buy panels all day at $3 per watt that will last 25-40+ years--and home made panels have issues (cost of materials, sealing issues, and such).

Once the person (he/she or "s/he" as I had one boss would put in their reports) has asked more detailed questions (what kind of epoxy should I use, or will silicone seal work, or what kind of glass, soldering flux, etc.) are asked--we all give our best answers/suggestions.

If I was really against DIY Solar Panels--I would just point to a thread and say "read this"--Or what happens on many other forums--"Use the Search Function" and look up the multiple threads about the subject...

Yes, we hear the same questions over and over--but we have a good base of knowledgeable people that try to answer with the best data they have. So--it is not one person answering the same question over and over--and getting burned out.

Specifically, we try never to give "use search or FAQ" as an answer. It is difficult for us to find relevant threads ourselves at times--It is terribily unfriendly (in my humble opinion) to tell a newbie to go search when they don't have any idea of how the forum is structured, the specific terms to search for, etc.

So--if you wish, document what you have done and post it in a thread--and you (or I) can answer the next person who asks how to build their own solar panel--we can point to your thread with your experiences. And--as time goes on, you can add to the thread about how well it worked and what you would do different next time (if applicable). That would be :cool: (cool).

And, I usually try and not rain on somebody's parade. I (and everyone else) was, at one time, a newbie in our own professions and hobbies--and we all remember how clueless we were the first time out. And we all remember the first person that patiently answered our "dumb questions" on the way to our education.

For me--it usually ends up being the "do no harm" first posts to make sure that people don't hurt themselves from a lack of understanding. Once those "negative" posts/warnings are out of the way--onward we go. There was never any hostility intended in any of my posts (I have learned long ago to not post/email/etc. mad--the Internet does not forget--and usually the cause was some sort of misunderstanding on one person's or another's part).

And, I had my own WWII vintage puddle jumper airplane from high school (Taylorcraft L-2m, hmm still in the original paint that I did some 25+ years ago) and worked/helped on many factory and home made aircraft (my Dad eventually got a Kitfox--i.e., a kit aircraft). I am not at all against DYI at all. However, I am not going to tell somebody to go gorilla and act surprised if there is fallout from that decision (note--I have said many times that gorilla solar GT installations are probably fairly common out there--but I am not in the industry--I am just a solar hobbiest too--so I cannot give you any answer other than to recommend that everyone follow the codes and the laws).

Warmest Regards (yes, really )
-Bill

nigtomdaw

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

R Tech you remind me of K Kanute honestly.... but he only got his feet wet . Where you will be OK with your HM listed panels when the inspector arrives,:roll: without wet feet,,, I noticed that you have shifted your usage of HM listed panels to a RV to prove your point.

A man with a theory needs to be mobile with his method or the conclusion falls apart

Nigtomdaw 2009 studying Life Why quote $4.30 a watt when NAWs has panels sub $3 a watt, get real my boy

dwh

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

BB. wrote: »

And, I had my own WWII vintage puddle jumper airplane from high school (Taylorcraft L-2m, hmm still in the original paint that I did some 25+ years ago) and worked/helped on many factory and home made aircraft (my Dad eventually got a Kitfox--i.e., a kit aircraft). I am not at all against DYI at all. However, I am not going to tell somebody to go gorilla and act surprised if there is fallout from that decision (note--I have said many times that gorilla solar GT installations are probably fairly common out there--but I am not in the industry--I am just a solar hobbiest too--so I cannot give you any answer other than to recommend that everyone follow the codes and the laws).

Warmest Regards (yes, really )
-Bill

Woot! I love it when I meet someone who understands the practical side effects of gyroscopic precession.


(And I think you meant "guerrilla", no?)

BB.

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

DWH,

Yes, you are correct... I got into using gorilla with "Gorilla Glue" (polyvinyl acetate (PVA) type glue) and "Gorilla Snot"--some sort of very sticky (cross between STP and Honey) that we used on aviation fuel lines as "pipe dope" (long forgotten what the real name was).

Like Bart Simpson at the Chalk Board:

Guerrilla is a member of anti-government raiders. Gorilla is a Fuzzy Big Black Ape found in Africa.
Guerrilla is a member of anti-government raiders. Gorilla is a Fuzzy Big Black Ape found in Africa.
Guerrilla is a member of anti-government raiders. Gorilla is a Fuzzy Big Black Ape found in Africa.
Guerrilla is a member of anti-government raiders. Gorilla is a Fuzzy Big Black Ape found in Africa.
Guerrilla is a member of anti-government raiders. Gorilla is a Fuzzy Big Black Ape found in Africa.
Guerrilla is a member of anti-government raiders. Gorilla is a Fuzzy Big Black Ape found in... bell rings--end of class for the day. Yippee!

-Bill

nigtomdaw

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

Bill what is with the decending type Im not the sharpest eye man on here and its giving me a head ache :grr

BB.

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

Was not intended to give a headache--It was intended to mean that what was typed was not worth the electrons it took to send it around the world...

-Bill "I will never learn or win" B. :roll:

Kamala

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

Anyone know how I can make Guerrilla Glue with household products to seal my solar panels?

Ooops. Sorry. That's probably too much.

Hang in there Raytech, I'm interested to know your results. My usage is also mostly for camping. Regarding your claim that "anything can be done." I am an ardent adherent of this concept. However, with this caveat... What is the cost, measured in (ordered by my arbitrary priority)...

Blood
Time
Tears
Sweat
Money

Less willing to spend at the top, more willing at the bottom.

Enjoy.

nigtomdaw

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

Easy then if its not worthy dont type it ?

Guess that applies to me

PS How do i employ spell checker i know im an idiot with the many red lines i get but how do i use spell checker

BB.

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

Does it look like I ever put a brake on what I am typing? :roll:

To use spell checker/corrector--usually it is just "right click" under the wavy red lines (if you were asking)--Otherwise, never mind. (more electrons byte the dust).

-Bill

nigtomdaw

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

kk that figures as my laptop mouse has given up the left and right buttons Spanish dust and a crap Acer Laptop I only can use the pad for double left button tab,

Take my advice and never buy Acer pile of crap, cheap but crap but software wise OKbut hardware wise a pile of junk IMHO. Worst PC Laptop ever owned 17 inch widescreen with both hinges failed ie cracked my son has a Acer smaller version, showing similar of hard ware failings. Previous lap tops Compaq and HP were fine :grr

icarus

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

Bill writes:

"And, I had my own WWII vintage puddle jumper airplane from high school (Taylorcraft L-2m, hmm still in the original paint that I did some 25+ years ago) and worked/helped on many factory and home made aircraft (my Dad eventually got a Kitfox--i.e., a kit aircraft). I am not at all against DYI at all. However, I am not going to tell somebody to go gorilla and act surprised if there is fallout from that decision (note--I have said many times that gorilla solar GT installations are probably fairly common out there--but I am not in the industry--I am just a solar hobbiest too--so I cannot give you any answer other than to recommend that everyone follow the codes and the laws)".

Kit fox on floats is great airplane (and quite common around here). I grew up in small planes,, my father and I build a couple,,, but I was never bitten by the bug. Flying in a J-3 with the doors and windows open on a summer day is pretty cool though!

Tony

raytech

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

nigtomdaw wrote: »

R Tech you remind me of K Kanute honestly.... but he only got his feet wet . Where you will be OK with your HM listed panels when the inspector arrives,:roll: without wet feet,,, I noticed that you have shifted your usage of HM listed panels to a RV to prove your point.

A man with a theory needs to be mobile with his method or the conclusion falls apart

Nigtomdaw 2009 studying Life Why quote $4.30 a watt when NAWs has panels sub $3 a watt, get real my boy

these are my first panels. I never said they were going on my house. (please don't put words in my mouth or alter my intentions to make me look like a coward/idiot). the original point was and has been the entire time "Don't tell someone they cannot do something if you don't know it to be fact." these panels were always intended for my camper. I NEVER said they were for my house. and i can use them as an off grid supplement, especially since I DO know an electrician that can secure them to code. you seem like you want nothing more than to degrade and prove wrong. I don't want to degrade but I DO want to prove wrong.

and the quote of 4.30 was for local panels. can i get those other panels shipped from Arizona to WI for a total of less than 4.30 a watt?

and please do not call me boy. i do not believe i have disrespected anyone here.

niel

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

this is starting to get out of hand here. NOBODY can tell you that you can't do anything as it is up to you to do what you want to, but it doesn't mean you always should go diy. i strongly advise that this be dropped so as not to escalate any arguments or name calling.

raytech

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

niel wrote: »

this is starting to get out of hand here. NOBODY can tell you that you can't do anything as it is up to you to do what you want to, but it doesn't mean you always should go diy. i strongly advise that this be dropped so as not to escalate any arguments or name calling.

i am tending to agree with your dropping. (i didn't come to fight (even though i started one))

But, everybody can tell me I can't though, I don't have to listen. But this isn't about me being discouraged. I never said "always should". I just see "never should" (my interpretation).

i do not plan on doing any name calling. I am a mod on several forums, and we don't appreciate that. but the problem is, "where do you shut it down?". somebody is going to be offended cause the other party got the last word. I can just stop responding and then you close the thread when you think all parties are happy.

I didn't start the thread so i really have no input.

but that really doesn't solve the initial problem

BB.

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

raytech wrote: »

I NEVER said they were for my house. and i can use them as an off grid supplement, especially since I DO know an electrician that can secure them to code. you seem like you want nothing more than to degrade and prove wrong. I don't want to degrade but I DO want to prove wrong.

I guess many of us misunderstood your earlier post:

raytech wrote: »

I am not saying "go rambo", but how do we evolve if we just accept what we are presented? WE DON'T. You know i could be completely wrong, but i think i can get my home brew system grid tied, legally and ethically.

Given how the whole code thing works--It is pretty much impossible to follow code requirements in the US without NRTL Listing... And I doubt that anyone would go to the trouble (and expense) of NRTL Listing home built equipment.

Again--not saying it cannot be done--I have designed and put into production quite a few different computer related systems in my past lives. So, I have gone through this before with UL, CSA, TUV, Bellcore/Telcordia, etc...

And yes, there are sometimes some very nice deals for solar panels out there--but I have warned many times, make sure you include shipping/insurance charges too as the costs to package and ship what amount to thin glass panels is not cheap.

The costs and hassles to do what is required by uniform building codes, NEC, local utilities generally preclude home building any of the support equipment.

Could such equipment be installed without NRTL Listing with building inspectors and utility approvals--certainly. We even have have an example here from a major southern California city installed by a licensed contractor, inspected by the building department, etc.:

Panel Fire Question

Should it have been installed without NRTL Listing--obviously not. Also, if you look at the photos you will find that even if they did not catch fire, the panels lasted for for not much more than a few weeks before the they started to fail due to wind, rain, and sun...

Are there places in the US which may not require inspections / utility approval for Grid Tie systems--perhaps. I don't know. Since most utilities are being dragged kicking and screaming to connect GT solar system (because of impact on revenue and concerns about network and employee safety)--I would guess that those utilities are few and far between.

I do have a question about how wind turbines that are connected to GT Inverters are approved for NRTL--I don't think very many are.

So, can home built / non-listed wind turbines be connected to the Grid through a Listed GT Inverter?

And if non listed turbines can be connected--why not non-listed solar panels?

-Bill

raytech

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

BB. wrote: »

I guess many of us misunderstood your earlier post:



Given how the whole code thing works--It is pretty much impossible to follow code requirements in the US without NRTL Listing... And I doubt that anyone would go to the trouble (and expense) of NRTL Listing home built equipment.

Again--not saying it cannot be done--I have designed and put into production quite a few different computer related systems in my past lives. So, I have gone through this before with UL, CSA, TUV, Bellcore/Telcordia, etc...

And yes, there are sometimes some very nice deals for solar panels out there--but I have warned many times, make sure you include shipping/insurance charges too as the costs package and ship what amount to thin glass panels is not cheap.

The costs and hassles to do what is required by uniform building codes, NEC, local utilities generally preclude home building any of the support equipment.

Could such equipment be installed without NRTL Listing with building inspectors and utility approvals--certainly. We even have have an example here from a major southern California city installed by a licensed contractor, inspected by the building department, etc.:

Panel Fire Question

Should it have been installed without NRTL Listing--obviously not. Also, if you look at the photos you will find that even if they did not catch fire, the panels lasted for for not much more than a few weeks before the they started to fail due to wind, rain, and sun...

Are there places in the US which may not require inspections / utility approval for Grid Tie systems--perhaps. I don't know. Since most utilities are being dragged kicking and screaming to connect GT solar system (because of impact on revenue and concerns about network and employee safety)--I would guess that those utilities are few and far between.

I do have a question about how wind turbines that are connected to GT Inverters are approved for NRTL--I don't think very many are.

So, can home built / non-listed wind turbines be connected to the Grid through a Listed GT Inverter?

And if non listed turbines can be connected--why not non-listed solar panels?

-Bill

Love your post (that's not sarcasm). this was really my only point (though it did meander). I do think i could get my panels tied (economically? probably not, but I don't know.) this whole thing started because it was impossible to do what manufacturers do. how many of those people do you think went out and bought harbor freight or equivalent systems, cause they were commercial, because they wanted it cheaper and were told it wasn't possible? you are likely not going to see those posts, cause they feel they were misguided.

You said pretty much impossible, which sucks, but it is better than impossible.

I'll take it

john p

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

I agree with everything that Icarus posted just below.. No one is trying to get you to buy anything from the site owners.. sure they would love to receive an order from you gor goods .. Making solar panels that are long term reliable is very difficult.. Do you really want to be rebuilding them every 4 years because of moisture in them ?etc. Making wind generators that work well under ALL conditions require the builder to have a lot of electrical and mechanical skills and a well equipped workshop to perform the making of it.. Its NOTas simple as getting a car alternator making 3 blades and putting them on the alternator shaft and then mounting it on a post and powering all electrical goods in the house..

We just trying to tell you that while there are some people with the necessary workshop and the skills to build almost anything.. for most people its far better to buy something with a long warranty.. even though it costs more to start with.. long term it usually works out less expensive..

And no I have never bought anything from this site ..I live in Australia and have almost everything possible solar here.

raytech

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

john p wrote: »

I agree with everything that Icarus posted just below.. No one is trying to get you to buy anything from the site owners.. sure they would love to receive an order from you gor goods .. Making solar panels that are long term reliable is very difficult.. Do you really want to be rebuilding them every 4 years because of moisture in them ?etc. Making wind generators that work well under ALL conditions require the builder to have a lot of electrical and mechanical skills and a well equipped workshop to perform the making of it.. Its NOTas simple as getting a car alternator making 3 blades and putting them on the alternator shaft and then mounting it on a post and powering all electrical goods in the house..

We just trying to tell you that while there are some people with the necessary workshop and the skills to build almost anything.. for most people its far better to buy something with a long warranty.. even though it costs more to start with.. long term it usually works out less expensive..

And no I have never bought anything from this site ..I live in Australia and have almost everything possible solar here.

i just wish i had seen your second paragraph here more than "you can't" in my searches. I am sorry if I am offending people, but this doesn't just apply here. I have two children. I cannot imagine telling them YOU CAN'T. guidance is what i give them. let them know the consequences, but NEVER do I say "YOU CAN'T" (unless it is under the DADDY protection act). will i let them get hurt? yes. will i let them get seriously hurt? not a chance.

dagr51

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

I just cringe every morning when I come to this forum and see that this post has been updated. Can we just drop it -please?

BB.

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

Raytech and everyone...

I am going to close this thread... We are going around in circles and everyone has had their two cents worth of say and it would be difficult to add any new points here.

All I can ask--Raytech, please post the results of your home-built project if you would like. I promise that everyone will be respectful of your work--and perhaps we can all learn something from your experiences.

I can promise that everyone will be respectful here--because I have the keys to the edit/delete post button. Capiche (capisci It.) everyone?

-Bill B. (moderator)