Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

raytech

what about the inverters that feed back into the grid through a simple AC plug in? they are still a bit spendy ($300+ and low wattage) and the other risks are still there, but you are supplementing your usage with your "free" energy.

i have started by building a small (180+ watt) solar array, plus my turbine (which i need to regear - live/pay/learn). i plan on using this for camping and such. But I also plan on supplementing my home power. Solar panels do not HAVE to be on the roof. and actually probably shouldn't be. Your roof is a lot hotter than the ground, and cells lose efficiency at higher temps.

I say since you already spent the money. Learn how to build panels. build them. get them set up (not connected), and call an electrician. they can inspect your work, tell you the risks, and make suggestions. Yes electricians are expensive, but if you REALLY want to do this, YOU CAN.

I don't mean to step on any toes, but through the years people have said "it can't be done" only to be proven wrong. now look up at the moon (if its out), or just think of it...

icarus

Re: Another discouraged dreamer

Beware the small, plug in inverters. They are not UL or CUL listed and in general not approved by most utilities. You might run into trouble with insurance etc.

Tony

PS There are many threads on the subject in this forum

BB.

Re: Another discouraged dreamer

Here is a thread (and link to another) about the SWEA "EBay special" inverters...

The SWEA are available in 120 VAC--so you "could" plug it into a wall outlet.

The Enphase is a 240 VAC unit--so you would have to have a 240 VAC circuit handy.

Going Grid Tie without approval is done by many people. And small installations are not going to be easily spotted. And the fire may burn up much of the evidence (:roll:). (Just joking--obviously there are well made home-built items that can perform safely, and factory made/approved/installed stuff that catches fire too).

Have I ever heard of somebody getting their power disconnected/sued by a utility over this? No--Although one poster here did get a visit when he was testing GT without a permit/approval (I think that this was posted a few days ago--I could not find it quickly--so I may have miss-remembered).

Anyway--Not too many people here are going to recommend that you go "gorilla" with a Grid Tied system (small or large).

As for for saving any money with "free electricity"--follow the above link to one cost/benefit post I did on the small GT inverter...

BB. wrote: »

$350 inverter and $1,250 for 250 watts of solar panels, assume 200 watts * 4 hours per day average per year, assume $0.15 power cost:

($350+$1,250)/(200w*4 hours*365d/y * $0.15pkWhr *1w/1,000kW)=36.5 years payback...

And, presumably, this installation would not (legally) qualify for any State or Federal rebates/tax credits.

Can redo with $3 per watt (instead of $5 per watt) solar panels:

($350+$600)/(200w*4 hours*365d/y * $0.15pkWhr *1w/1,000kW)=21.7 years payback...

Still not a great investment for all of the other, well documented, issues.

Nobody is saying that such a system would not work.

Just, not all things that can be done, should be done...

-Bill

raytech

Re: Another discouraged dreamer

i am in no way saying to "hide" or "sneak" your system in. that is also why i say contact an electrician. my system with controller, which controls many inputs only cost about $0.82 per watt of output (not watt hours) to start (not a lot of watts though (180+)). but i am building my own panels. i would say with all materials i have about $250 into the system (not including my time), but still have to buy batteries.

there is no way i will ever buy panels because of cost. I was shopping today and saw a 65 watt panel for $380. are you kidding? i am also not going to drop $20K on panels from a company and have them professionally installed. that is BS.

I may not be of the norm for this site. I haven't checked resumes, but I am a computer programmer with a background in mechanics. I am told every day that "this has to be done", when people say "it can't be done". I still have a job because I "get it done". I sure hope that carries though here. again not trying to get a rise out of anyone, but i just don't like negativity. i don't like false positivity either. they are equal evils.

icarus

Re: Another discouraged dreamer

Right now,, one can buy Evergreen UL listed panels for less than $2.40/watt. Not bad, with a ~20 year warrantee, UL listing etc. I would be surprised to see any home make panels cost as little over their life cycle.

As for grid tie,, rules exist for a reason(s), mostly good ones. For instance the utility has the obligation to provide you with power of a known spec (240vac 60 hz for example) and to do so safely. Your obligation is to have a safe installation after their meter,, and do nothing to endanger their hardware/personnel. There is a reason the UL or some other testing agency listing is there is to protect both you,, as well as the utility. Do some utilities have some silly, arcane rules? Sure. Do some jurisdictions have silly inspection rules and requirements? Sure. But on balance,, from what I know the rules and inspections are a good thing.

If you want to run your house partially off grid,, go for it,, but once you plug a system into the grid,, I caution one to understand the possible ramifications.

Icarus

raytech

Re: Another discouraged dreamer

sorry, i just realized this site is a retail site. so sorry.

BB.

Re: Another discouraged dreamer

Raytech,

Yes, NWAS is a retailer/wholesaler of Solar RE equipment and components...

But they have chosen to host this site to also help others who also are interested in solar RE too (whether or not they buy from NAWS).

The two moderators (Niel and myself) are just volunteers who help keep spam down and threads (more or less) on track (not always successfully :roll: ).

In the end, there have been quite a few threads here on how to build your own solar panels (including discussions of material, sources, and vacuum sealing processes and suppliers of the bags).

We try not to be negative about people who want to try and build their own panels/equipment... However, we try to set expectations and help others avoid the stupid failures we have all done in our pasts.

Anyway, please feel free to stick around and ask more questions. And take a look at the other build your panel threads.

Off to the Fireworks!
-Bill

mike95490

Re: Another discouraged dreamer

BB. wrote: »

Off to the Fireworks!

Ha! I'm just leaning back, watching out the window. Like there is a riot of light and
sound outside.

homerramirez

Re: Another discouraged dreamer

Yeap, this is a retail site but, so far nobody is obligated to buy anything in order to sign up or log in, myself I started solar with high hopes just to be brought up to reality by the moderators (B.B., Niel) and the members of this forum.

Make no mistake that all advice we get is honest and to the best of members knowledge and experience......;)

GEEE !!!!! I wish I knew about this forum before I started on R.E.

My 2 cts.

raytech

Re: Another discouraged dreamer

I have absolutely no problem with visiting a retail site. but the posts i have read all say, you CAN'T go home brew. the more i saw this the more it puzzled me of the existence of the forum. then i checked a profile. retail.

I do not discount concerns of the installers or retailers, but all i have seen is, you HAVE to buy retail. I simply do not accept that concept. and that i do discount.

I am not saying "go rambo", but how do we evolve if we just accept what we are presented? WE DON'T. You know i could be completely wrong, but i think i can get my home brew system grid tied, legally and ethically.

I will not suggest going below the radar to save money. it could cost a life. that i am never willing to risk

Honestly, if you went to a site to learn (and advance) , and most threads said you have to buy something to do it, how would you feel?

icarus

Re: Another discouraged dreamer

I personally think you have the wrong impression of many of us. I don't think that the fact that the site sponsor is a retailer changes the opinion of anyone posting anything,,,ever.

I think the reality is that some of the very smart, very experienced folks here have learned where and when it makes sense to use commercial product and where it doesn't. Clearly,, there are various threads,, particularly in the wind section on home brewed stuff. I think experience has taught many of us that in the interest of either safety, reliability, ease of installation, lack of ability, etc that there are few cases where home made solar panels can compete very well with commercially available ones.

For example,, where I live,, we are isolated for a couple of months a year on a island. While the ice is forming,, and when it is near break up and unsafe to travel, it is VERY important to me that my system works IN TOTO, so that I can get help in an emergency, or just so I can listen to the radio. I wouldn't always have the store of fuel (nor would I wish to spend the money) to keep myself up and running if the Pv quit working.

Having said that,, there is much about my system that would be considered cobbled together by some. For example,, my mounts are homemade, much of my fuse/breaker stuff is used and a bit odd ball. My voltage controller for my battery vent controller is homemade,, only because I had a friend make if for me with a very specific spec.

The point is that we encourage learning about and having posting from people who have done things differently from our experience. I have learned a ton over the years that I have participated in this forum,, and I always respect the opinions posted by (most) others, because it soon becomes clear that they have forgotten more than I will ever know.

I try to post on issues that I have some first hand experience,, and others do as well. Do I always get it right?,, certainly not,, but am I trying to steer someone to NAWS to buy hardware,,, not at all. In fact,, I think that the site host has been way more than generous to host for us. Do they get some benefit,,, sure,, but I know of lots of posts that refer to hardware that they carry,, but refer to other sellers either because of price, or because of the posters real world experience.

So by all means,, DIY,, but don't discount the value of those here,, especially people like Bill and Neil who keep us all in line,, and Crewser and Solar Guppy who have real world experience that most of us can only dream about. Not to mention all the disparate opinions from all over the world, most of which is valuable.

Tony

raytech

Re: Another discouraged dreamer

I joined this forum to learn from others experience. But I have to admit, when I saw about a dozen posts saying you have to buy commercial, i instantly got irritated. my first thought was "why would such a forum exist?". Then i checked. I am not saying this forum is trying to solicit their services/products to everyone. but to have so many people say "you have to buy commercial", seems very odd. forums are usually to help people avoid commercial. at least the ones i frequent.

I might not be able to get grid tied with my panels. But maybe I can. To tell someone they can't, is counterproductive to everyone. and that is the most irritating thing to me. I like to help others and encourage them. But like i said in an earlier post, do not give false hope. If you are 100% certain because you KNOW, then by all means post that information. If you are speculating based on what you have learned/read/experience in your area, by all means post that too, but in the latter case, don't state it as fact pertaining to the current situation.

And the statement about this being a retail site is entirely accurate. I never said they were trying to sell anything to me. I just stated this IS a retail site. because it is. It is owned (or moderated) by a retailer. I am a strait forward person. and not just on the net, cause anyone can do that.

I want to help, not hurt.

icarus

Re: Another discouraged dreamer

True be told,, it is not moderated by the retailer (windsun) it is moderated by BB and Neil and formerly by Jim (Crewser) I have never seen a thread or even a post changed or deleted by either except for Phishing BS site linking. Windsun does chime in once in a while,, but never about selling stuff.

Tony

raytech

Re: Another discouraged dreamer

My point is NAWS (a retailer) owns the site. and when searching I mostly found posts saying you can't do it yourself. I wasn't referring to the moderators being peddlers. I would never attack a moderator as I am a mod on several sites. it is quite a privilege.

this post has been totally stolen from the original poster, and now i feel guilty.

I just didn't appreciate the fact that they were told that they "had to go commercial" or don't bother, cause it aint worth it.

BB.

Re: Another discouraged dreamer

To be honest--the following are pretty much the only rules that we try to follow/enforce here:

1. No Spam (automatic banning)
2. Professional conduct (i.e., family oriented)--No outright support of illegal actives (don't want to hurt/kill anyone).
3. More or less on topic posts--no cafe / open political forums (energy related politics OK)
4. If you have something to recommend/question/ID--if our host (Northern Arizona Wind & Sun) has on their website--we ask that you point your links to NAWS first. Links to sites (even competitor's sites) that sell other products are fine as part of the discussions/exchange of information (see #1).

More or less--that is about all I do here as a Moderator (mostly #1).

Our host (Windsun) does want wide ranging discussions on topics of interest to everyone in the Renewable Energy field--even some of the more controversial subjects (Cold Fusion anyone?). It is not our intent to censor based on content (we are human however).

Neither Niel nor I have any business relationship with NAWS. And neither of us (moderators) are in the solar industry at all (I am not, I am pretty sure Niel is not).

Raytech, if you want to start / continue a thread on building your own panels--please be our guest. Generally, the "negative" stuff and warnings are just the first few responding posts to the original post to make sure the Original Poster has an understanding of the road they are heading down. The following 4 threads were all created by one "newbie":

Vacuum sealing solar panels (14 posts)
magnified glass... (2 posts)
Casting solar panels in composite material (8 posts)
DIY solar panels (3 posts)

I am sure I have posted this link before--but, again, this is why we recommend and try to make sure the people making their own panels or buying non-UL / NRTL listed panels understand the hazards of same... Poor guy was buying "retail" a GT system for his home in southern California with full permits and inspections--the installer (guessing) installed non-Listed panels and set the guy's roof on fire (fortunately an observant neighbor and close by fire department saved the properly and prevented anything worse from happening).

Panel Fire Question (48 posts)

Usually, after we get the warning and alternative suggestions out of the way--we all try to help you do what you want/need.

Because this is simply an Internet forum--we have no clue as to everyone's experience, local needs, and awareness of safety issues. In the end, better safe than sorry.

And if we know of other forums (and such) that offer better support for specific projects or products... We provide links to them all the time:

www.otherpower.com (DIY Wind Turbines)
www.outbackpower.com/forum/ (forum for Outback Products)

We really do try to provide as much help as we can.

-Bill

PS: Fixed Link/Name to Panel Fire Question (wrong name link earlier)

BB.

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

Raytech,

Please feel free to continue your discussion/concerns here.

For others that want to see the original posts from AlphaRat, see this thread:

Another discouraged dreamer

Sincerely,
-Bill B. (moderator)

niel

Re: Another discouraged dreamer

if it's a problem for you that naws supports this forum then you can go to any 'non-commercial' forum you'd like if you believe that we are skewing things for a retailer. solar guppy has one that he himself owns and i'm sure he'd let you join, but don't think that the answer is going to be any different just because of that. you may certainly stay here, but understand we in fact only give our opinions and recommendations and it is up to the individual to make up their minds on what it is they will do. none of us work for naws. do understand though that most individuals can't do what commercial manufacturers can and if you can it most likely won't be of the same performance or durability let alone be cost comparative. think i'm wrong, then go make a simple lm317 in a to3 case for a few dollars then. i didn't even ask you to do a difficult one.
it is not about commercial-ism, but rather the product and how best to obtain the same said performance with longevity and costs also weighed. if you can do better than a commercial product then none of us would say boo against you for it and it would windup being quite the opposite as many would want to do it too.
it is a commercially owned website without the strings attached and they ask minimal of members here for it, such as keep it clean and somewhat free of politics and religion without using the site to compete with naws or spamming. it is actually a kind of reversal that has given naws respect from many people and has created a customer base from it. from there, word of mouth and reputation also play a role so i can't say that naws hasn't profited from this forum because they are allowing the industry itself to flourish and it is self propelling. they don't need the hard sell.

Windsun

Re: Another discouraged dreamer

Nobody here has ever said you have to buy commercial. What has been said over and over - mostly by those that have actually tried it - is that making your own solar panels simply is not worth it for any of a dozen reasons. You say you want to learn from others experience, but it seems when that experience differs from your opinion, you get "irritated".

...forums are usually to help people avoid commercial. at least the ones i frequent....

There are limits to what you can do yourself. I don't see many forums on how to build aircraft engines, or to build your own computer CPU either.

This site is almost never moderated by us except to delete spam. In the several years that this site has been up, only one thread has been removed by us, and that was because it was a personal vendetta between two rivals that deterioated into a name calling match. That was over 4 years ago.

This forum is here for information. The fact that you may not agree with the general consensus does not make that consensus wrong.

raytech wrote: »

I joined this forum to learn from others experience. But I have to admit, when I saw about a dozen posts saying you have to buy commercial, i instantly got irritated. my first thought was "why would such a forum exist?". Then i checked. I am not saying this forum is trying to solicit their services/products to everyone. but to have so many people say "you have to buy commercial", seems very odd.

..It is owned (or moderated) by a retailer. I am a strait forward person. and not just on the net, cause anyone can do that.

I want to help, not hurt.

BB.

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

In my previous post... I intended to post a link to the:

Panel Fire Question

...thread--but messed up (fixed now there too).

I think that this is important for anyone wondering about safety and why UL/NRTL/etc. agencies exist (for the public good and safety).

-Bill

Cariboocoot

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

The "negativity" against home-made panels is quite logical: you can not build as good a panel as you can buy. There is an awful lot of "hype" out there about "build-it-yourself" which exists only to sell you the information (which is often of questionable value). So for "serious" solar power building your own panels is a waste of time and money, and potentially dangerous. Your "home brew" panels won't be UL approved, and there's some very good reasons for having that little tag.

On the other hand, in my opinion at least, commercial small-scale wind power is the opposite. These things rarely live up to the power claims, and are often quite expensive. So in that field you may as well build it yourself, have fun doing so, learn something in the process, and maybe get a bit of power out of it. But the warning is true here too; a home-made wind turbine can also be potentially quite dangerous.

There's nothing wrong with doing it yourself for learning about these things. But don't expect to get a viable, long-term system from it.

As for this site, it is pragmatic not commercial. You will often see the advice come down to "have you thought about costs?" and there is a large emphasis on the fact that conservation gives the best return per energy $. NAWS doesn't sell insulation or double-pane windows, so there clearly is no "product pushing" going on here.

Just my opinion.

nigtomdaw

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

Its interesting thought that probably the best small wind turbine in the real world is the homemade Hugh Piggot design which has many DIY followers and fans and builders across the world.

Thus when DIY works it works , and it gets it place in recommendations by members of this forum and when commercial products dont work like most of SWWP products they get a bad rap by members of this forum, so I dont think the NAWS forum has two many negative comments of DIY just the right comments usually were appropiate.

Nigel

john p

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

Facts are Facts. no matter how good your abilities as a home handyman its extremely hard to make solar panels to the same standard as ones made by reputable companies..Long term sealing is the hardest part..for the home builder it seems almost impossible to make them moisture proof.
Sure if you just want to experiment making solar panels and not that interested if they will still be fully functional in 15 yrs time go for it..But if you are looking to build a serious solar panel array to offset grid electricity or you live in an area where no grid power is available.. you need well built reliable panels.. ie factory made. its the same reason most people buy factory made inverters and charge controlllers and batteries.. even though its not that difficult to make a lead acid battery..
I also have never noticed any heavy handed demands made by the owners of this site..it seems to be given pretty much free reign for everyone to post almost anything..

BB.

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

john p wrote: »

I also have never noticed any heavy handed demands made by the owners of this site..it seems to be given pretty much free reign for everyone to post almost anything..

Ah, cough, ahmmm.. within reason...

-Bill B. (moderator)

hillbilly

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

I'm a total DIY type normally for lots of reasons, not just because I'm cheap (which I am). I have to totally agree here on the "negative slant" towards DIY solar panels, it's not that it cannot be done, it's more of a question of how many of us could do a sufficiently good job at it (at a reasonable cost). Maybe some folks can, and that's great... it does not mean that everyone can or should do it. As for the whole issue of this being a "retail site" and having some sort of bias... you really should stick around and read a lot more here as you clearly don't get the overall focus of the site. I've actually been quite surprised at what NAWS has allowed, including lots of links and posts about competitors. I can also vouch for the overall quality of the service and products that NAWS offers on a retail level, which has a lot of value to me for this type of product.
I do not always agree 100% on the "experts" take on all things here, but I will say that I have learned volumes from reading and considering the information that gets exchanged here on a regular basis... if anyone out there has found a better forum for RE... I'm all ears, but I've yet to find it.

mike95490

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

john p wrote: »

I also have never noticed any heavy handed demands made by the owners of this site..it seems to be given pretty much free reign for everyone to post almost anything..

They've drawn a line at Naked Iguanas.

BB.

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

mike90045 wrote: »

They've drawn a line at Naked Iguanas.

We don't want to go there again, do we... :roll:

-Bill

mountaintop

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

mike90045 wrote: »

They've drawn a line at Naked Iguanas.

I just have to do this....

raytech

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

Cariboocoot wrote: »

The "negativity" against home-made panels is quite logical: you can not build as good a panel as you can buy.

this is exactly the type of statement I was referring to.

how do you know this to be true?

I believe for the same price, i can build a better panel. and i will learn a lot along the way.

If this type of statement were made to other people, where would the manufacturing industry be if they had listened?

and underwriters laboratories stamp doesn't really mean as much as a lot of people think it does. I used to work for a Motorola parts manufacturer. I was quite surprised when i was told the level of quality needed to obtain the stamp. and i was told by QA

I will still admit there is a lot i need to learn. i don't know everything. and i don't oppose the opinions of others just because they differ from mine. i oppose the opinions of others when they tell people things can't be done.

nothing is impossible. it may not be me that does it, it could be you though.

failure is only an acceptance away.

raytech

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

I do give my apologies to the site and its members.

I did not mean it to be a slam on the site for being retail. there just seems to be posts that say that is the only way to do this.

I also do thank the mods for trimming this from the original post. I felt kinda bad for diverting the original subject.

i do understand there are rules and policies set forth by entities for the protection of people and property. And IF i am able to create my own panels at a great cost savings and stay within those guidelines, i have accomplished my goal.

do i know it for sure? NO. but to tell me i can't.

BB.

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

UL is not a quality stamp... Product does not even need to work to have UL.

I gave you a bunch of threads from somebody that still wanted to try and build their own panel--and we had quite a conversation on how best to do it...

Ask your questions and/or let us know how you want to build your panel...

-Bill

raytech

Re: Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments? (trimmed from another thread)

BB. wrote: »

UL is not a quality stamp... Product does not even need to work to have UL.

I gave you a bunch of threads from somebody that still wanted to try and build their own panel--and we had quite a conversation on how best to do it...

Ask your questions and/or let us know how you want to build your panel...

-Bill

wow, i almost feel a little hostility there. (but a lot is lost in type (i hope))

I have just completed my first (2) panels. are they commercial quality? absolutely not. it is my first time. are they going to last 20+ years? absolutely not (well ya never know). it is my first time. did they cost me $4.30 per watt? absolutely not.

am i going to mount them on my roof? are you crazy? these are for camping

all said and done, i have 140 watts with charge controller and enough cells left for another 70 watts for just over $250. that is with a 400 watt inverter for the camper.

like i said (in a round about way). i don't KNOW i am right.