The wrong approach to back up emergency parts

softdown
softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,844 ✭✭✭✭
Could have replaced the whole Flexpower system. Shipping weight is, I think, 175 pounds? No UPS delivery for that.

Spare inverter? That can be a couple thousand. Squeezing it in between the upper and lower components on the Flexpower system was a real chore. Both mechanically and 15, on mine, wires to re-connect.

I think a spare control board may be the wisest investment, That is less than $300 on, for example, an Outback inverter.

Does freezing or refrigerating a control board extend its storage life? Appears to have plenty of large capacitors.
First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries

Comments

  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,844 ✭✭✭✭
    On the other hand, if one replaces the inverter they can likely fix the old inverter. Perhaps sell it or have a back up.

    I doubt I could sell my vintage 2012 inverter for much.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would not freeze a populated PCB.  Keep it cool & dry, not in an attic !
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,844 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2021 #4
    mike95490 said:
    I would not freeze a populated PCB.  Keep it cool & dry, not in an attic !

    In super cold environs it is highly likely that electronics will freeze at times. What does that do to capacitors?

    Cool and dry? Sounds like refrigeration.

    Ideally I would wait 4-5 years before replacing the control board in my broken inverter. Issues with that?
    Control board may not be available.
    I often don't do stuff unless I do it while thinking about it. If I want to repair my last inverter then I better do it now. Or at least get the control board in my inventory - taped to broken inverter. But I'd be better off simply replacing the control board in that case.

    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    softdown said:

    In super cold environs it is highly likely that electronics will freeze at times. What does that do to capacitors?

    Cool and dry? Sounds like refrigeration.

    Ideally I would wait 4-5 years before replacing the control board in my broken inverter. Issue with that?
    Control board may not be available.
    I often don't do stuff unless I do it while thinking about it. If I want to repair my last inverter then I better do it now. Or at least get the control board in my inventory - taped to broken inverter. But I'd be better off simply replacing the control board in that case. Think I'll call Outback for advice on this one. They should know best.
    Capacitors vary in their ability to handle cold, some are mil spec, most, like you find in computer motherboards, are not.  Many mfg's post operating & storage temps for their gear.  But being sealed in a bag with some desiccant, and stored in basement would be cool enough.

    And when you get a replacement board, install and test it.   5 years from now is not the time to discover it's the Other board.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,844 ✭✭✭✭
    Off grid inverter capacitors really better be built to handle freezing conditions. Such a large number used in cabins that are very frequently frozen.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,599 admin
    You can look up spec sheets for parts--Here is just a random one I found:

    https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/212/KEM_A4079_ALA7D-1776041.pdf

    They list operational and storage conditions up to 85C (185F). Operational life of 10,000-15,000-29,000 hours (higher ripple current, shorter life).

    At 40C, shelf life of 2,000 hours at +85°C or 30,000 hours at +40°C 0 VDC. Remembering 1 year = 8,760 hours...

    Remember that "life" is not operational to "death" of part--Just that specifications fall outside of rated limits.

    Keeping the boards/systems cool and at stable temperatures is a huge help, both for storage and during active life.

    Another major killer of electronics is thermal cycling stress. In the "olden days" I would thermal cycle 5 1/4 inch disc drives between minimum and maximum rated operating temperatures 2 cycles per day. The "weak designs" would fail within 2 weeks. The good designs, would not fail in 1+ months of thermal cycling.

    From the spec. sheet:
    Shelf Life

    The capacitance, ESR, and impedance of a capacitor will not change significantly after extended storage periods; however, the leakage current will very slowly increase. KEMET products are particularly stable and allow a shelf life in excess of three years at 40°C. See sectional specification under each product series for specific data.

    Re-age (Reforming) Procedure

    Apply the rated voltage to the capacitor at room temperature for a period of one hour or until the leakage current has fallen to a steady value below the specified limit. During re-aging, a maximum charging current of twice the specified leakage current or 5 mA (whichever is greater) is suggested. Reliability The reliability of a component can be defined as the probability that it will perform satisfactorily under a given set of conditions for a given length of time.

    In practice, it is impossible to predict with absolute certainty how any individual component will perform. Therefore, we must utilize probability theory. It is also necessary to clearly define the level of stress involved (e.g., operating voltage, ripple current, temperature, and time.) Finally, the meaning of satisfactory performance must be defined by specifying a set of conditions, which determine the end of life of the component.

    KEMET provides an online life calculator that can be used to predict hours of life for a given part number in specific application conditions. This can be found at: https://elc.kemet.com.
    You are really at the mercy of the components chosen and the design details of the system manufacturer... The best you can do is keep the system withing specifications, cool and stable temperatures, and buy from a company with a history of cost effective & reliable equipment.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,844 ✭✭✭✭
    BB. said:
    You can look up spec sheets for parts--Here is just a random one I found:

    https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/212/KEM_A4079_ALA7D-1776041.pdf

    They list operational and storage conditions up to 85C (185F). Operational life of 10,000-15,000-29,000 hours (higher ripple current, shorter life).

    At 40C, shelf life of 2,000 hours at +85°C or 30,000 hours at +40°C 0 VDC. Remembering 1 year = 8,760 hours...

    Remember that "life" is not operational to "death" of part--Just that specifications fall outside of rated limits.

    Keeping the boards/systems cool and at stable temperatures is a huge help, both for storage and during active life.

    Another major killer of electronics is thermal cycling stress. In the "olden days" I would thermal cycle 5 1/4 inch disc drives between minimum and maximum rated operating temperatures 2 cycles per day. The "weak designs" would fail within 2 weeks. The good designs, would not fail in 1+ months of thermal cycling.

    From the spec. sheet:
    Shelf Life

    The capacitance, ESR, and impedance of a capacitor will not change significantly after extended storage periods; however, the leakage current will very slowly increase. KEMET products are particularly stable and allow a shelf life in excess of three years at 40°C. See sectional specification under each product series for specific data.

    Re-age (Reforming) Procedure

    Apply the rated voltage to the capacitor at room temperature for a period of one hour or until the leakage current has fallen to a steady value below the specified limit. During re-aging, a maximum charging current of twice the specified leakage current or 5 mA (whichever is greater) is suggested. Reliability The reliability of a component can be defined as the probability that it will perform satisfactorily under a given set of conditions for a given length of time.

    In practice, it is impossible to predict with absolute certainty how any individual component will perform. Therefore, we must utilize probability theory. It is also necessary to clearly define the level of stress involved (e.g., operating voltage, ripple current, temperature, and time.) Finally, the meaning of satisfactory performance must be defined by specifying a set of conditions, which determine the end of life of the component.

    KEMET provides an online life calculator that can be used to predict hours of life for a given part number in specific application conditions. This can be found at: https://elc.kemet.com.
    You are really at the mercy of the components chosen and the design details of the system manufacturer... The best you can do is keep the system withing specifications, cool and stable temperatures, and buy from a company with a history of cost effective & reliable equipment.

    -Bill

    Storage life is 15 times greater at 40C vs. 85C. Or 104F vs 185F. Temperature is clearly extremely important with high temps to be avoided at almost any cost.

    But what about cool temps? Or cold temps? Those figures would be more than useful.

    With the above item, 3 1/2 years at 104F leads one to believe that an avg. temp of 50F might very well be good for quite a long time. But I won't be content until I learn what to expect at 40F or 0F etc.

    An experienced "techie" could likely find the bad part and fix the inverter for somewhere between "$10 and $50". Wild guess of course.

    I wonder if bad parts will often have visual clues. Right now I feel more comfortable rolling the dice with a control board replacement. I like to guess and my guess is that is likely the issue. No way that Outback or a reseller is going to stick their neck out with a firm diagnosis. More like "Good chance that might work" I'll bet.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,599 admin
    Finding bad electrolytic caps... Look for bulging cases, blown pressure relieve (valve, "X" on back of cap), leaks (corrosion), and browning of materials for cap and on circuit board.

    Problem is a bad capacitor can damage circuit board (burn out trace, liquid from cap shorts out/corrodes other components, etc.).

    The engineering rule of thumb. For every 10C increase in temperature, you get 1/2 life. 20C (68F) to 40C (104F) equals 1/2 * 1/2 = 1/4 life due to higher temperature aging (expect 4 years of aging life--At 40C, you get 1 year of "useful" aging life).

    Same for going below standard temperature. at 0C (32F) you get 4x longer aging life.

    It has been too many years for me to remember the details from school. This is a well used engineering rule of thumb and applies to almost anything (including canned foods, etc.). It is used as a calculus example in math class where plugging in numbers to the equation gives you almost exactly 10C change = 2x or 1/2 change in aging.

    But even if the formula works, there are other issues. Many decades ago, my father read about keeping batteries cold would increase their storage life (back when even flashlight batteries were not cheap). Never could see the improvement, and had more than a few come out of the fridge "dead" (moisture damage even in cling wrap, some minor freezing affected the old carbon/zinc batteries???).

    Don't drive yourself nuts... You are just a few years younger than me--Enjoy life. And do the best you can. I am buying light bulbs that will last longer than me now... The old bulbs (I called them my Silvania "flash bulbs") would list 6 months on outside (photo cell controlled) security lights. Florescent U-Tube and sodium vapor last many years. And next new fixtures will be LED.

    Cars used to last 100,000 Miles with lots of maintenance. Now closer to 200,000 with much less maintenance. Things are not that bad.  :)

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,844 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2021 #10
    Nice reply but I have a different insight on this line: Cars used to last 100,000 Miles with lots of maintenance. Now closer to 200,000 with much less maintenance. Things are not that bad.

    Spark plugs - Last much longer but far more expensive and often hard to change.
    Oil - Much improved now and that is why people can get over 200,000 on a gas engine.
    Transmissions - Got my trannie rebuilt in '78 for $300 with lifetime guarantee. Not it cost $3000, often much more, with a 12 month warranty.
    Engines - Used to be fun and simple and cheap to work on. Now they are painful, complex, and expensive to work on.
    Paint  - $40 at Earl Schieb, $60 for metallic. Lifetime guarantee. Dents? Average was $70 in my experience. Paint job can now cost 100 times that. Dents may average 50 times that.
    Tires - Vast improvements but quality has gone down over past decade. Why is that?

    New cars cost $2-$3000 in the 60's. That is why they didn't last, people simply replaced them. They could afford a new one quite easily and many bought a new car every single year. The styles were exciting and made powerful statements. People loved their cars, now people tolerate something they must own.

    Drunk driving used to be winked at. Another reason old stats can suffer. Plus, for whatever reason, a lot of people loved to gun their big v-8s the instant it started. They would have treated their cars better if they cost 4 times as much. They would also have kept them longer.

    Older cars had shorter lives because it was so easy and affordable to replace them. Plus  a new car offered appreciably better technology in the in the 50s and 60s. Power steering and power brakes were awesome improvements.

    Then we have expensive insurance and plates. Another good reason to hang on awhile longer.

    Things were better. We all know that though Ingsoc vehemently denies it.  Health and happiness were far better in spite of cigarettes. Now our biggest industry is pharmaceuticals - aka: petrochemicals.

    Compare:
    Suicide
    Obesity
    Divorce
    Depression
    School shootings (almost all are on subscribed petrochemicals)
    IQs - down 15 points with boys (see The Boy Crisis https://www.amazon.com/Boy-Crisis-Boys-Struggling-About/dp/1942952716 )
    Sperm count - down 50%
    Job stability
    Home prices
    Rental rates
    Insurance prices
    Health costs

    Sure we have lots of rich people now. How did we get $30 trillion in debt without making many rich? The money went somewhere.

    Everybody I knew was part of a functional family. Right now I can't think of a single functional family - by traditional measurements.


    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,844 ✭✭✭✭
    Either Outback discontinued customer guidance or I followed the wrong phone protocols. Have not heard back from them though this year is crazy everywhere.

    I spoke to someone at NAWS that felt all the lights would have failed if it was the control board. A visual inspection is clearly the next step.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries