Justifying a smaller off grid television set?

softdown

Have 50" and thinking 40" makes economic sense in the long term. Curiously simple comparison charts did not become readily available in my searches. It was more like "How big of a TV can you fit" from my queries. Perhaps someone else has had better luck. 

I have ~ 1050 sq. inches of viewing area. https://topuptv.co.uk/tv-screen-height-width-dimensions/
A 40" tv delivers ~ 680 sq. inches.  I don't know exactly how that translates to power consumption - other than should much less. 

If we figure that grid power cost ~ 10 cents/kWh then - 50 cents/kWh is not at all unusual when using solar batteries. Some do much better, some do much worse. 

But I am figuring $1/kWh when watching television. Why? Because I watch late night and early morning and watch the battery voltage slowly decline with each passing hour. My router supplies power to the roof top antennae and also kills battery power. But so does my bluray player. 

Power usage varies with screen brightness and data usage of course. I estimate that my Vizio 50" tv uses about 100 watts and the router uses at least 100 watts. Both very rough estimates to be sure. My KillOWatt is clouded over and difficult/impossible for more than rough approximations over days.  I use the darker tv setting but only that single energy conservation setting is available. A stark disappointment. 

Hopeful that somebody here has dove in and crunched some definitive numbers. 

Most of us know that manufactures Energy Guide yellow tags lie. It is so easy to cheat. 

This is rather a dour note for solar energy. The bright side is that energy is much closer to free when the sun is shining. 

My ISP supplies the router that powers my roof top antennae. Don't think I have options there. It likely explains the $25/mt discount I got when they installed the new system. They said it was to decrease the load on their main broadcasting tower in town. 

Wheelman55

I believe that our 43” Samsung 4K UHD TV uses 45 to 55 watts. It’s 1,500 miles away so I can’t check. 

softdown

Sounds about right. Some of them have ample energy savings settings. My 55" LG in the city has 10 different brightness levels. I leave it on bright since grid energy is reasonable and I don't get to use it a great deal.

Before I set up an easy to read system voltage gauge, I had no idea how much energy I consume just doing ordinary stuff like watching tv. Even the game of Risk on an Vista low/medium performance laptop with 14" screen uses a significant amount. Not as much as most video games I would guess. Only way I don't drain the batteries is to lie in the darkness. Books aren't bad - just need reading light. Buying books adds up though. Library doesn't work out so well here.

If off grid living was a larger sector we could maybe have a good magazine devoted to coping comfortably with off grid solar. I still think one could make it compete with grid power, cost wise, if they played all 52 cards correctly. Pretty well dedicating their life to it.

As far as I recollect Photowit has managed to only double the cost of grid power? Via his own work, a deal on panels, and a forklift battery. Many have a tough time getting a forklift battery indoors.

706jim

Presently I have a 49" LED 1020P RCA TV. Takes about 60 watts and idles at nearly nothing. Some years ago we bought my mother a colour TV for camp. 9" screen 12 volts and 60 watts.

I'm thinking 60 watts 49" screen vs 60 watts 9" screen is an impressive improvement.

softdown

No doubt. LED lighting is one of the greatest technologies of the past 50 years. Would have been a luxury to catch a couple hours on a 21" ~ twenty years ago. Perhaps even genset time for many.

Samsung and Vizio televisions are noted for "spying". They have a "network card" type thing built into them. I wonder how much energy that uses. They surely turn it off when testing for Energy Star energy usage - and I'm speculating a bit here. Just suspicious about much "technology." Very suspicious actually.

petertearai

Yes the smart tvs use a bit to run the wifi and internal computer .  Think my panasonic 40 inch is energy star rated at 165 kwh per anum .

softdown

petertearai said:

Yes the smart tvs use a bit to run the wifi and internal computer .  Think my panasonic 40 inch is energy star rated at 165 kwh per anum .

Did you compare the energy ratings before buying? Are they not all "smart tv's" now. I have read of Vizio and Samsung being singled out for spying on their users. Not sure what "a bit" is.

Dedicating two more panels to a different solar bank hurt my overnight low a bit as well. A subject for a different thread perhaps.

Estragon

I'm not sure if or to what extent they still are but TVs used to be a significant "vampire" load, sucking power even when not in active use.

softdown

Lots of electronics have pretty high power consumption in "stand by". People want "instant on" instead of letting things warm up for a few seconds. I also believe electricity costs have generally risen faster than inflation over the past 20 years. Those warm fuzzy solar panels and wind generators may add a lot to the utility company costs.

Off grid users learn to leave stuff disconnected until needed. It isn't difficult to "turn stuff on twice" - giving it power then pressing the ON button.

My fridge seem to be on much more often than not between 4am and 7am. I suspect an overly active defrost mechanism. It was built in 2008 when Energy Star was a newer concept and energy conservation a lesser priority.

Here is a marginal .gov site. They went "all the way" and rated six different sets. Commitment to excellence. https://www.energystar.gov/most-efficient/me-certified-televisions/results

softdown

So my E50u Vizio uses 89 watts with no tuner. I don't know if that includes the speakers which are rated at 20 watts. I'd imagine the Amazon Fire plug in uses another 10-25 watts or so. Same could be said for Roku. https://www.cnet.com/reviews/vizio-smartcast-e50u-d2-review/

The reviews I read do not address energy consumption in a highly useful manner.

Size may not be the indicator of power consumption that you may have suspected. Much more to it than just size alone.

petertearai

Softdown, .yes  when purchasing a tv , the sales people could not get their head around my desire for low energy consumption. They could only tell me about picture quality  or features .  The last one i purchased  for 3 reasons . 40 inch as opposed to existing 30 inch . Dual tuner , so satelite dish cable connected directly .  And net flix, YouTube loaded into it to make things simple .

softdown

I never considered energy consumption when on the grid. No big reason to do so. Being off the grid is kind of cool with one caveat: Get good batteries. I had too much excitement with my first batteries. Losing power at 3am in a blizzard sucks. Never happened to me but I'll bet it sucks.

Everyone here talks endlessly about their solar array. Panels and batteries in particular. But half the battle can be won with smart energy conservation. I'll give BB credit for pointing that out pretty frequently.

wellbuilt

I have a samsung 65” that uses about 75 watts a 55” that uses 60 watts and a 50”that cost 299 bucks  that uses 45 watts a 20 that uses 19 watts . 

  I don’t have WiFi or satellite I down load compleat shows on thumb drives and save them for ever . 

 There is no antenna nothing, I have one drive I’ve been watching for a month now it must have 50 long movies on it . 

 The thumb drive just plugs in the back of the tv it’s easy Dosent come with a bill attached and Dosent really use much power . 

softdown

Nice set up. I wonder how much would be involved in transferring my dvd's to thumb drives. Should be faster than transferring data to a dvd due to write speeds - I would hope. I tend to be behind technology, I still listen to cassettes. My dog inadvertently pops out cd's and breaks them in half.

I think most people are listening to songs on their smart phone via bluetooth. My phone has zero songs, zero videos. Guess that is because I find smartphones to be creepy surveillance devices.

softdown

Best thing for me would be an energy conserving 40" with built in DVD player. I have hundreds and hundreds of dvd's that I mostly bought for $1/each. But my external player uses far too much energy for some reason. I don't think it should require that much energy.

softdown

TV specifications should tell us power consumption I would think. Yet that seems to be rarely found. This morning I have found exactly one TV spec's list including power consumption.

706jim

As previously mentioned, my 49" TV is quite thrifty around 60 watts. And virtually nothing in standby mode. I figure my whole setup consisting of TV satellite and stereo take about as much power as my fridge except that the fridge probably runs a total of 8-10 hours per day and the TV somewhat less. And until recently I was able to keep the batteries up with only 400 watts of panels.

Before adding the fridge of course.

BTW since adding the fridge I run the Trace 24/7 with the standby circuit defeated. This for my 6 month season.

softdown

That is much better than my 50" that uses 89 watts. Here we have a 40" Sansui rated at a miserly 59 kWh/year. https://www.energystar.gov/productfinder/product/certified-televisions/details/2327932

Is it asking to much to simply state how many watts the power consumption is thought to be? I guess so - finding that number is quite rare. Obviously not something that many consumers look at.

Then we have LG who cheated the tests by supplying tv's with their brightness levels turned way down.

EDIT: Found the wattage rating for this Sansui: Power Consumption in On Mode (watts): 31.14

Almost 1/3 what my tv consumes while offering about 2/3rds the screen size. Looks like a "winner".

Also - it appears that kWh/year can roughly be cut in half for watts usage. i.e.: 60 kWh/year is about 30 watts.

So my 89 watts is roughly 180 kWh - a significant energy consumer.

I could save ~ 150 kWh with the purchase of a $400 fridge. Or ~ 120 kWh with the purchase of a $300 tv that is 1/3 smaller.  I'd do that but income is now zeroed out with no end in sight.

I should call my ISP and ask about the possibility of a router that is more energy efficient. Why not - when one has almost nothing to lose?

mcgivor

Personally I haven't watched TV in the past 5 years and don't miss it, commercial television is, for the most part, a conduit for propaganda, controlling the minds of viewers, camouflaged as entertainment  for the masses. Just watch Fox "news ", an oxymoron in itself, to see the power of misleading information guiding anyone gullible enough to follow then into the twilight zone. This  has been going on for years and some who could see it acknowledged it, for example Frank Zappa wrote a song in 1973, 47 years ago about this, here it is.

I  am gross and perverted 

I'm obsessed 'n deranged 
I have existed for years 
But very little had changed

I am the tool of the Government 
And industry too 
For I am destined to rule 
And regulate you

I may be vile and pernicious 
But you can't look away 
I make you think I'm delicious 
With the stuff that I say

I am the best you can get 
Have you guessed me yet? 
I am the slime oozin' out 
From your TV set

You will obey me while I lead you 
And eat the garbage that I feed you 
Until the day that we don't need you 
Don't go for help...no one will heed you

Your mind is totally controlled 
It has been stuffed into my mold 
And you will do as you are told 
Until the rights to you are sold

 
TV is the big brother or INGSOC, if you like, controlling the minds of the gullible who subscribe to it's nonsense, only they don't know it, blindly following what is fed to them as fact, regardless of the consequences of doing so, it's so easy to control the uneducated and ignorant  into believing what is said is true, it's no wonder they, the powers, use this tool to their advantage.

BB.

Remember that TV viewing surface size goes with the square of outside dimensions. A 20x30 inch TV is 1/4 the screen area of a 40x60 inch TV... So power requirements are roughly proportional (1/4 screen sq inches is about 1/4 the energy used).

Another caution, I would not pay extra or "smart TVs" (or smart DVD players, etc.)--My Vizio tv, not more than a few years old, does not support Amazon and other video services (Netflix just hangs).

Lastly, the Vizio remote I have--All of the button markings have long since worn off from normal usage... Nothing like a remote with a hundred buttons front and rear--All black. Since I use a Roku to access my non-broadcast channels, I only need to use the 0-9 and a few other menu keys--So remember those locations.

And if you are worried about Internet Snooping--Look for Pi Hole software (runs on cheap Raspberry pi and other devices). The software replaces the DNS lookup on your router--And returns "null" for blacklisted sites (besides many ad sites, it also blocks Facebook and similar--If you wish).

https://pi-hole.net/

There are new(er) Browser functions that can bypass the Pi Hole (Secure DNS) blacklisting (secure DNS does block your ISP from tracking your web surfing)...

-Bill

softdown

Nice input lately. It makes sense that power consumption would be closely related to size - but the claims often fail to substantiate that. The odds of some form of "test cheating" are quite good by my estimation.

softdown

I just posted a question regarding the power consumption of this $190 40" Sansui: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B085VJ6VP3/ref=ask_ql_qh_dp_hza

Since model numbers change very rapidly it seems difficult to find solid energy numbers.

Then we have descriptions like this:

Sansui SLED3228 32IN HD LED TV (2018 Model) (50IN)

A 50IN 32IN HD LED TV! We now have shape shifting TV's!

softdown

In the lower right you will find a strong correlation between size and power consumption of very similar LG televisions. Which surprises nobody. https://www.costco.com/wcsstore/CostcoUSBCCatalogAssetStore/Attachment/9887343_SS.pdf

softdown

If you poke long enough and hard enough sometimes you find a pay off. Found this just released 40" Sansui on sale for $140 at Electronic Express.com in Tennessee. Shipping was $15. https://www.electronicexpress.com/catalog/187402/Sansui-S40P28F

Look at the Energy Guide:

BB.

I am not sure I "trust" specific energy star tags (trust, but verify works for me):

• 64,000 WH per year * 1/365 days per year / 5 hours per day usage = 35 Watts average load

Use a Kill-a-Watt meter or similar to measure... The couple of "modern" digital TVs I measured the standby losses on, I could not even get 1 Watt of load (both read zero Watts).

-Bill

softdown

Electronic Express is an established business. Their online reviews are quite poor overall. I'll just hope for the best I suppose. The best price often carries a degree of risk - win some/lose some. It was $25 cheaper from them which is still credible. Could have been dropped or...

Anyone placing bets?

softdown

BB. said:

I am not sure I "trust" specific energy star tags (trust, but verify works for me):

• 64,000 WH per year * 1/365 days per year / 5 hours per day usage = 35 Watts average load

Use a Kill-a-Watt meter or similar to measure... The couple of "modern" digital TVs I measured the standby losses on, I could not even get 1 Watt of load (both read zero Watts).

-Bill

I have seen a number claiming .5 watts in stand by. Not worth unplugging.

I am using broad, easy to use, figures here. $8/year is roughly 16 watts of power by my figures. They may not include speaker power - for one thing. Hard to know without trying it - not many hook up a Kill-a-Watt then post up results. Going from 89 watts to ~ 16 watts would be fantastic. Also - hard to believe. I'll be happy with 30 watts and I'll take 40 watts.

Hope my math was generally acceptable.

EDIT: Think I got turned around on the math. $8/year is about 80 kWh/yr. Or ~40 watts by previous figuring. Why can't they just state watts?

706jim

I recall listening to Zappa's "Freak out!" And figured I understood Frank. Thinking back; not a chance!

softdown

706jim said:

I recall listening to Zappa's "Freak out!" And figured I understood Frank. Thinking back; not a chance!

Here is an IQ claim of 172 for Zappa: https://frankzapppa.blogspot.com/2013/12/frank-zappas-iq.html

At any rate, I'm sure it was high.

wellbuilt

 hay soft my numbers are 100% on the money.
all you need is a 12 year old girl that can down load movies on a thumb drive for you.
i have no set up, the Samsung tv come with the plug in the back, my wife buys thumb drives on amozan 
AND MY 12 YEAR OLD DAUTER DOWN LOADS MOVIES FOR ME.
 I’m not really sure how she dose it, but I know I pay for it to happen.
  She has no fancy equipment lap top and I pad.and a movie Account.

wellbuilt

All my tv ares are on switched out let’s by the door I just turn them off.
 But the Samsung tv s don’t use enough power to read on a kw meter