UBGC2 Universal

ws9876ws9876 Solar Expert Posts: 399 ✭✭✭
These 200 ah 6 volts AGM seem to be the best deal at about 230$. Anything better out there in this size/??
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  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 30,629 admin
    Our host has this battery (plus a larger AH version too):

    https://www.solar-electric.com/residential/batteries-battery-storage/deep-cycle-batteries.html?manufacturer=375&nav_battery_voltage=384

    Full River has some good history here on the forum, but they are more expensive:

    https://www.solar-electric.com/residential/batteries-battery-storage/deep-cycle-batteries.html?manufacturer=540&nav_battery_voltage=384

    And, shipping may be an issue too... Look for the price at your door (loading dock, where you can get your hands on the batteries, plus taxes, etc.).

    Batteries are heavy (and if FLA, can spill). Do the research.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • mvasmvas Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2019 #3
    papab said:
    That UBG battery can be only taken down 40%.  
    What does "... can be only taken down 40% ..." mean?

    Please, rephrase using standard battery terminology ...
    SOC = State of Charge
    DOD = Depth of Discharge

    Are your saying ...
    a) The battery can only supply 40% DOD of the rated Ah capacity, leaving 60% SOC  ... or ...
    b) The battery can only supply 60% DOD of the rated Ah capacity, leaving 40% SOC ?
  • papabpapab Registered Users Posts: 49 ✭✭
    40% DOD, 60%SOC, but I deleted my comment because I was confused.   I read that for a different UPG battery, https://www.solar-electric.com/upg-universal-ub-4d-45965-sla-agm-deep-cycle-battery.html


  • mvasmvas Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2019 #5
    papab said:
    40% DOD, 60%SOC, but I deleted my comment because I was confused.   I read that for a different UPG battery, https://www.solar-electric.com/upg-universal-ub-4d-45965-sla-agm-deep-cycle-battery.html


    But per the spec sheet, the UPG UB-4D battery is rated at ~200 Life Cycles at 100% DOD.
    Where are you reading only 40% DOD ?

    The two batteries, the "UB-CG2" and the "UB-4D", appear to have very similar "Life Cycles vs Depth of Discharge" charts.
    They appear to be electrically equivalent in Cycles, just in a different form factor ( the case ) and 6v vs 12v
  • papabpapab Registered Users Posts: 49 ✭✭
    On that link it says this:

    UPG discharging recommendation: this battery should not be discharged beyond a 40% depth of discharge (DOD). That means the battery should retain no less than 60% of its rated capacity. If the battery is drawn below that threshold, it could prevent the battery from returning to a full charge.
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,810 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here's the chart, pretty universal for all deep cycles, except special ones, HUP1 and such.


    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
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  • mvasmvas Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2019 #8
    papab said:
    On that link it says this:

    UPG discharging recommendation: this battery should not be discharged beyond a 40% depth of discharge (DOD). That means the battery should retain no less than 60% of its rated capacity. If the battery is drawn below that threshold, it could prevent the battery from returning to a full charge.
    That is what the Wind & Solar's website states.
    Wind & Solar is not the manufacturer.
    Look at what the manufacturer states for the UPG UB-4D at 50% DOD and even 100% DOD ...
    Rated at 200 Cycles at 100% DOD per the manufacturer's "Cycle Life vs Depth of Discharge" chart 
    https://www.solar-electric.com/lib/wind-sun/45965.pdf

    Nothing magical or bad happens when discharging a Deep Cycle battery below 40% DOD.

    If you look carefully at the "Shelf Life & Storage" chart ...
    you will see that UPG recommends that you do NOT let SELF-DISCHARGE go below 40% DOD or 60% SOC !!!
    The Hard Sulfate from a long self-discharge will permanently damage the battery
    So clearly, the wording on the Wind & Solar website is wrong.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 30,629 admin
    I agree with MVAS about his reading of the NAWS website note and the USB specifications.

    Should be just the usual warning about storing lead acid batteries at partial charge... Typically I use 75% minimum State of Charge while storing (recharge if battery is at or below 75% SoC) to reduce the forming of hard lead sulfate crystals--Which takes that "lead out of the battery ability to charge/discharge"... UBG uses 60% SoC for minimum storage charge level before sulfation accelerates...

    Sent a message to NAWS about that note...

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • ws9876ws9876 Solar Expert Posts: 399 ✭✭✭
    I thought the glass mat hindered sulfate formation...so much for that. When is this simple sulfate problem going to be solved
    in batteries??? I truly think its  because battery  makers want people to buy more batteries sooner. Its the American way of thinking.
    But that wont be around forever. Thats the good news.
    How about this...... if you want a job as an energy storage  engineer right out of college that pays 100K and youve never so much as broke a sweat in your life raking leaves,,,, then you get a 6 month trial with a company and if you dont
    come up with a new technology( like a sulfate free design) of some kind you get 35K for a salary instead.
    95% doing almost nothing all day.....5 % doing the rest..



  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 4,478 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There already are "sulfate free design" batteries.  Lithium chemistries, for example, are mostly fine at partial SOC.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • mvasmvas Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭✭
    ws9876 said:
    I thought the glass mat hindered sulfate formation...so much for that. When is this simple sulfate problem going to be solved
    in batteries??? I truly think its  because battery  makers want people to buy more batteries sooner. Its the American way of thinking.
    But that wont be around forever. Thats the good news.
    How about this...... if you want a job as an energy storage  engineer right out of college that pays 100K and youve never so much as broke a sweat in your life raking leaves,,,, then you get a 6 month trial with a company and if you dont
    come up with a new technology( like a sulfate free design) of some kind you get 35K for a salary instead.
    95% doing almost nothing all day.....5 % doing the rest..



    Why do you think the sulfate problem is simple to solve?

    The solution has eluded engineers for the past 160 years.
     it is claimed that Graphite, reduces the "Hard Sulfate Crystal" issue inside Lead Acid batteries.

    A Constant Current charge at 5% of the C20 AH rating until the SG stops increasing will undo some, most, all hard sulfate?
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 30,629 admin
    From what little I understand, the best you can do is knock the black lead sulfate crystals off the plates so that more active material is exposed again.

    And, the "magic" device is/was a "desulfator" (more or less, impulse current spikes to "resonate" the crystals back into active materials again--An impulse contains a wide range of harmonic frequencies--So that different size crystals will resonate at their resonant frequency(ies)).

    Since are more than one way Lead Acid batteries fail (internal grid corrosion, etc.), even if a desulfator worked--It may only give you a limited recovery of cells--Depending on what else may or may not have happened.

    You can find lots of free (and pay for) documents and even battery recovery services out there:

    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=lead+acid+battery+recovery

    Which work or don't, I have no idea. My guess is that you need something more solid (like forklift/traction batteries) vs light duty batteries (UPS, automotive, marine-deep cycle, etc.).

    But my guess(es) and $5.00 will get you a cup of coffee.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,211 ✭✭✭✭
    mike95490 said:
    Here's the chart, pretty universal for all deep cycles, except special ones, HUP1 and such.


    The way I read that chart has me thinking that the greatest economy lies in a huge bank that generally stays above 85% SOC. 3300 cycles is over 9 years. I think sheer age will do significant damage and I'm not sure that chart accounts for that factor. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,211 ✭✭✭✭
    ws9876 said:
    I thought the glass mat hindered sulfate formation...so much for that. When is this simple sulfate problem going to be solved
    in batteries??? I truly think its  because battery  makers want people to buy more batteries sooner. Its the American way of thinking.
    But that wont be around forever. Thats the good news.
    How about this...... if you want a job as an energy storage  engineer right out of college that pays 100K and youve never so much as broke a sweat in your life raking leaves,,,, then you get a 6 month trial with a company and if you dont
    come up with a new technology( like a sulfate free design) of some kind you get 35K for a salary instead.
    95% doing almost nothing all day.....5 % doing the rest..



    You appear to think that quality will improve after America becomes a historical footnote? Interesting since I'm not aware of other countries providing breathtaking battery longevity. 

    Though the maneuverings of Chrysler and GM provide grist for the built in obsolescence argument. But then we have Fiat, Renault, Mercedes, VW, Jaguar, Kia, Hyundai, etc. Of all the manufacturers there are only two with generally sterling reputations and Honda struggles with their automatic transmissions for reasons unclear. 

    Seems that quality has generally been globally elusive to me. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • papabpapab Registered Users Posts: 49 ✭✭
    BB. said:
    I agree with MVAS about his reading of the NAWS website note and the USB specifications.

    Should be just the usual warning about storing lead acid batteries at partial charge... Typically I use 75% minimum State of Charge while storing (recharge if battery is at or below 75% SoC) to reduce the forming of hard lead sulfate crystals--Which takes that "lead out of the battery ability to charge/discharge"... UBG uses 60% SoC for minimum storage charge level before sulfation accelerates...

    Sent a message to NAWS about that note...

    -Bill
    75%?  For an AGM?   I took better care of my lifeline than that and it sulphated.   I'm convinced that 100% everyday or if that isn't possible, every couple of days, is required.

    Keep us posted if NAWS replies, I wonder if they've seen issues with this battery.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 30,629 admin
    edited September 2019 #17
    75% is the number I suggested (and is pretty commonly used). And other here have argued that it is not valid to use 75% SoC at all...

    I have no answers.  :|

    People that have managed 100's and 1,000's of battery installations--Always a good start to review their experiences and recommendations.

    -Bill

    I suggested 75% SoC for a recharging point for any lead acid battery... I have read that AGMs have less sulfation issues, but no details.
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,211 ✭✭✭✭
    Sulfation is a top killer of solar batteries. If AGMs sulfate significantly less, I would think their lifespan would be better. Perhaps they just need a longer absorb cycle to do at least as well?

    I'd honestly never heard that until a couple weeks ago. 

    Not having corrosion of water level issues are pretty big advantages. Plus the lack of off gassing and battery acid. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • mvasmvas Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2019 #19
    Agreed, under-charging / sulfation is the #1 killer of lead acid batteries.

    Shouldn't the battery bank be at ~80% SOC when the Charge Controller transitions from Bulk mode, to Absorb mode?
    Then Absorb mode increases the SOC from 80%, up to 100% or until the sun sets.

    You can get off-gassing from AGM batteries - and then that is a disadvantage.
    Not having access to the SG inside an AGM is huge disadvantage vs flooded.
  • mvasmvas Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2019 #20
    BB. said:
    From what little I understand, the best you can do is knock the black lead sulfate crystals off the plates so that more active material is exposed again.

    -Bill
    In message #12, I stated ...
    A Constant Current charge at 5% of the C20 AH rating until the SG stops increasing will undo some, most, all hard sulfate?

    Since the SG is increasing, we are not simply "knocking off black lead sulfate to expose new active material"
    An increasing SG means that we are actually dissolving the sulfate back into the electrolyte - assuming minimal water loss
    This may take many hours, depending upon the hardness of the sulfate.
  • Marc KurthMarc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 771 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2019 #21
    Remember that DOD Cycle testing is performed using BCI test standards. The numbers are often published based on a 2 hour discharge or a 5 hour discharge period. This is in no way indicative of what to expect in a typical off grid application with a slower discharge rate.
    The curve shown above is typical for the lower tier of AGM batteries out there. Higher quality AGM's perform dramatically better.
    Link to a typical data sheet:

     


    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
  • papabpapab Registered Users Posts: 49 ✭✭
    I don't think that standard test is very good for many real world situations where partial state of charge is the killer.  I wish someone would come up with a good standard test so we as consumers could compare, unfortunately the real world solar situation is a 24 hr cycle, so a test would take years.  Maybe let the battery sit at 60% and charge it up once a week would be a stressing PSOC test.
  • Marc KurthMarc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 771 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2019 #23
    I deal with a lot of people who live in the their RVs full time. (It is more common that many people realize) These rigs can be a 5th wheel trailer, all the way up to coaches with sixteen 8D's for a 48 KWH battery bank. The factory warranty from Lifeline is 5 years when a compatible charging system is used. Warranty replacement numbers for projects that I am involved with, are very low, because the batteries make it to five years. In cold climates, 7-9 years is not uncommon. Very few of these reach 100% charge everyday. Customer feedback has taught me that these folks tend to get their battery banks back to full charged about twice per week. Likely, they are NOT hovering around 50% for a couple of weeks at a time. More like cycling between 50% and 80% because of intermittent genset operation.
    The City of Dallas has decoy cars planted in certain neighborhoods. These vehicles get picked up for recharge when the system sends a signal indicating they they are down to 11 volts under load. That is generally at 9-10 days. These battery banks are 200 ah and get recharged at a rate of 200 amps, floated overnight, then re-deployed.They get replaced when they only provide 7 days of operation. That happens at 27-29 months.
    I work with a lot of weird application that push the batteries to their limit, so I have enough examples to match almost anything that you can think of. (Including an expected six month life span that lets me sell lots of batteries!)
    IMHO, the partial state of charge sulfation problems with lead acid, are what make Lithium really interesting.
    Marc
    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 5,221 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Lithium is great at PSOC for 6+ months.

    Unfortunately lithium does have new failure modes like the BMS shutting down the battery at good Soc, temperature issues that were fine with lead acid, and a few more issues like recycling and fire.

    It is funny to me how the internet makes old problems like end amps on an AGM or FLA sound like it is something new.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,211 ✭✭✭✭
    Much as I like to play with and test batteries I can't say that my measurements are proof of anything. I recently disconnected a number of negligible loads and increased the absorb time of my bank from 1 hour to 4 hours. Should have helped and likely did help a little. But the solar days are shrinking and the nighttime temps are growing significantly cooler. A month ago I was waking to maybe 50.1 volts, now it is closer to 49.8 volts. The opposite of the readily expected. 

    I figure that is certainly due to cooler morning batteries and shorter days. Lacking a stable environment, testing results border on the somewhat meaningless if one seeks scientifically meaningful results. 

    CCA oriented batteries are a lot easier to test than Ah oriented batteries I think. I can get consistent read outs of CCA in seconds with a good CCA battery diagnostics tool. It also measures resistance but I'm not currently sold on that. Right now I think basic voltage is as useful as anything. The healthiest batteries always show a higher voltage. Every. single. time. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • Marc KurthMarc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 771 ✭✭✭✭
    I can't help but wonder how much sulfation has occurred from the previous limit of 1 hour absorb. What brand are these?
    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,211 ✭✭✭✭
    I can't help but wonder how much sulfation has occurred from the previous limit of 1 hour absorb. What brand are these?
    Fullriver - we'll never know. This mountain desert valley is very dry and sunny. I fail to hit absorb maybe 1-2 days/year. They have not changed much in 2 years and 2 months. No sense worrying about water under the bridge. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,211 ✭✭✭✭
    I can't help but wonder how much sulfation has occurred from the previous limit of 1 hour absorb. What brand are these?
    Lets assume there is sulphation. Fullrivers can be equalized. What might you recommend trying out? 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • Marc KurthMarc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 771 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2019 #29
    Fullriver has generally not suggested EQ in the past. Have they published a new stance on this?  Do I recall correctly that these were "new old stock?"  What is the standing voltage after fully charging, then standing for 4+ hours and no discharging?
    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,211 ✭✭✭✭
    Fullriver has generally not suggested EQ in the past. Have they published a new stance on this?  Do I recall correctly that these were "new old stock?"  What is the standing voltage after fully charging, then standing for 4+ hours and no discharging?
    Good - I do not feel like equalizing them either. Not convinced that anything more than normal wear and tear has occurred since they are usually done bulking by 10:15am. I'm not a heavy electrical user and my bank is pretty large. The panels are very effective in this environment. 

    Yes - they sat in a climate controlled Pennsylvania warehouse for two years. They say here for another ~ year. I went almost a year without losing a simple 8D - pretty miraculous that. 

    It would be kind of a nuisance to properly answer the question about voltage after standing. Their voltage has always been a bit lower than FLA batteries for some reason. Like 12.7 compared to 12.8. These are the 170 pound 270Ah Fullriver 8Ds. They have since lowered the rating to 260Ah on the newer batteries.

    They are truly great batteries. But at the price commanded - I'm not convinced I will buy another set. I hope to squeeze another 4-6 years out of them. Half expecting to pull that off. 

    If I didn't have a couple dozen projects going on at all times I would likely manage each individual one with better detail. That's my excuse and I'm not backing down. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • Marc KurthMarc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 771 ✭✭✭✭
    I think that we have totally derailed the OP's thread. Sorry about that!
    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
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