Magnum mms 1012 charging issue

icarus

I am trying to trouble shoot an installation.  Magnum mms 1012 inverter charger, with a ME-RC remote.

The issue is that it says it is charging from genny power, but it it not actually charging. The remote meter reads “charging 30 amps” but the Victron (confirmed with a clamp on ammeter) shows zero charge.  I have changed the shore power current, as well as the percentage of available charge both up and down a number of times to no avail.  I have also reset the inverter as per the manual.  I have also shut off the genny, and reconnected it, as well as shut the inverter down manually.  Now it is “stuck” on float charge, 30 amps, even though the voltage is only 12.9 vdc.  

This hardware set up worked fine a day or two ago.  The only change I made was substituting a Honda Eu 1000 for an honda Eu 2000 genny.

Getting through to Magnum Tech support is proving...hard. Been on hold for over 1/2 hour.  

Any thoughts,

Tony

BB.

Some of the "newer" charging algorithms require the battery bank to actually be discharged (say below 12.7 volts) for a period of time before they will actually enter Bulk/Absorb charging (the idea to actually have the battery bank discharged to ~75% or so State of Charge before actually hitting charge again--Reduce shallow cycling).

Is there a "rebulk" setting (some chargers can have both a "rebulk" and a "days between "freshening" charge" setting).

-Bill

icarus

I don’t think the Magnum has that feature.  I have a sneaky suspicion that I toasted the charger side of the inverter.  I was trying to do some major bulk charging yesterday, and I was using the Magnum at ~30 amps, and I added in a Xantrex TrueCharge 20 to the mix, so it was charging at ~55amp including the solar.  I was trying to stir up the electrolite after a series of shallow charge/discharge cycles.  

I wouldn’t have thought the Magnum would “care” as it is designed to work with a PV charge that could easily exceed 20 amps.  That said, perhaps there is something in the PWM of the Xantrex that the Magnum didn’t like?  I don’t know enough about the electronics to know.

Tony

BB.

Just "too much" charging current on the battery bus--I don't think that would have damaged the charging function of the inverter-charger. Does the inverter (battery operation) work correctly (I think a fair amount of the power electronics is used for both AC invering and AC charging).

Assume this is a pure sine AC inverter (MSW inverters can smoke if both AC Neutral Output and DC input are ground referenced together--MSW output needs to be floating, not neutral+ground bonded).

Another possibility... Some inverters (like APC UPS for computer backup), will not "auto start" inverting if the AC mains does not have a ground and a ground bonded neutral connection (I guess if there is >x volt difference between AC Neutral and green wire ground, assume wiring fault).

-Bill

icarus

The plot thickens a bit... Plugging the Eu 1000 back in it works normally, at least it charges normally. The Eu 2000 still doesn’t not charge.  Also, probably related, when I run a small motor load with the Eu 1000 through the inverter, it won’t start, but if I run the same load off the inverter it starts just fine.  (Even if I turn the charger function off so the charger is not trying to draw current from the genny.

The same motor load running off the Eu 2000 starts and runs fine, it just won’t charge...ever.  I have called Magnum, been on endless hold and left messages for them to call back to no avail...

Tony

Estragon

Curious, was the 2000i in eco mode when the magnum qualified it?

icarus

I believe it was.  It starts and runs the motor load just fine in eco.  The 1000i runs it fine in eco, but needs full bore to start.

T

Estragon

It's a longshot, but maybe try it in non-eco?  Wondering if the rectification in the charger is doing something weird (eg harmonics) in eco. 

With the charging saying it's putting out 30a or whatever, either there's a sensor/data error, or the current is going somewhere other than the batteries.  Like I said, a longshot.

icarus

I’ve tried it both ways this morning...works fine on the 1000i,  same old same old on the 2000i. Trying Magnum once again.  I’ll let you know.  The only thing I discovered is that the 2000i out put is ~127 vac @59.7 hz.  The 1000i is 124 vac.  Over voltage?  T

icarus

So. I spoke with Magnum to little avail.  He suggested that there maybe something with the wave form of the 2000i that the Magnum doesn’t like, although as I said, the genny puts out 59.7 hz.  I really don’t know what to do now.  In point of act, I can use the system on one 1000i, I just can’t run my motor load.  This isn’t an issue for me, but this system is set up and used by people who don’t know, and I am trying to make everything seamless, running through my grid system rather than having to run the motor load directly off a genny on a cord.  Not a big deal, but I would like to solve it.

tony

BB.

Do you have another genset laying around to try (non inverter)?

Bill

icarus

Bill...Only about 15 I can try.  Next I’m going to try two 1000i’s tied together and see.  Thanks all for the help.  T

icarus

One more interesting (maybe irritating) note.  Two eu1000’s tied together and it doesn’t charge.  Says it is, but doesn’t.  Later on I will lug a non inverter genny over to see what it does.  Keep thoughts ideas coming!

T

icarus

Estragon said:

It's a longshot, but maybe try it in non-eco?  Wondering if the rectification in the charger is doing something weird (eg harmonics) in eco. 

With the charging saying it's putting out 30a or whatever, either there's a sensor/data error, or the current is going somewhere other than the batteries.  Like I said, a long shot.

I don’t think the current is going anywhere... I don’t think it is producing current.  It is like when the inverter/charger is “waiting” to start charging, but never does.  I can’t find anyway to “trick” it.  A great mystery.  As I said, Magnum was no help.  They said if the charge light was lit but there was no current, look in the tech menu for under voltage or over hot FETs or transformers, neither of which were suspect.

t

icarus

Taking Bill’s cue, I tried another genny, a 2800 conventional Mitsubishi.  Works like a charm, just as it should.  Can’t figure out themyustery of the 2000i though.  Tony

BB.

Put a scope on the eu2000i AC output? It may simply not be working correctly.

If you have a Kill-a-Watt meter, put a 120 VAC filament lamp (or simple resistance heater) on the genset as a load (through the KAW meter), and measure the Power Factor... It should be pretty close to 1.0 if all is OK...

-Bill

icarus

I’ll try that...It won’t be for a few days however, got to go to town tomorrow. Thanks for the tip Bill.  I don’t have a scope, but do have a kill-a-watt.  T

BB.

It is just a guess on my part... A relatively simple debugging proceedure. I would guess that if there is a genset problem, the Power Factor would be way below ~80% PF (0.80 PF). Comparing different gensets and their PF may be "interesting".

-Bill

mike95490

I wonder if there is any ground bond differences between the generators ?  or a faulty bond ?

mcgivor

mike95490 said:

I wonder if there is any ground bond differences between the generators ?  or a faulty bond ?

Was wondering along the same lines, having multiple ground bonding may be an issue, early generators had floating neutral, later to comply with ocupational health and safety, OSHA , neutral to ground bonding was required. Honda has information on how to remove the bonding to work with transfer switches commonly used in off-grid applications,  but to be honest, I'm unsure if this is related to the problem, but worth looking into.

Testing the generator that works, for ground bonding, against th one that doesn't would be a good starting point.

icarus

Betraying my own ignorance, how can I tell?  Tony

BB.

Put a meter in the ground hole of your 3 prong plug with the genset running:

Ground to Hot (narrow blade) = `120 VAC
Ground to Neutral (wide blade) = ~0 volts
Hot to Neutral = ~120 VAC

Ideally, you want to use a Wiggy or DMM with "low resistance" mode (~3,000 Ohm resistor or so between leads). Even any filament lamp would work (Christmas tree light, etc.). You don't want a typical DMM (with something like 10 MOhm between leads) picking up stray/leakage current.

If you do not see ~120 VAC between Ground and Hot (you may see "wondering" voltages--Or even ~60 VAC between G+H and G+N) ... Then hour Neutral is not bonded to Ground.

Also, with the genset off, check the resistance between Ground Plug and genset frame/grounding point. Should be under a couple of Ohms between Electrical safety ground and frame ground.

You can also get an outlet tester that has lights between H/N/Ground to do quick outlet checks for Grounding/Power wiring issues.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=ac+outlet+tester

You can also measure the resistance between (with generator off) Ground and Neutral--Again, near zero Ohms, good chance of ground to neutral bonding. You probably will see low Ohms between Hot and Ground if Neutral+Ground bonded (reading resistance of generator output windings).

I have not worked on any gensets made in this century (boy, that sound like Old Guy)--From what I have seen, the Honda eu2000i and smaller family usually had floating AC outputs (no Neutral+Ground bonding). It seems to me, most gensets over ~3,000 Watts (guess) normally come wired with Neutral to Ground bonding. (probably also true for AC inverters made to UL specs.).

-Bill

icarus

Bill, et al...

First,I did the light bulb test, PF reads 99 or 100 on both the 1000i and the 2000i.

Second, probe on hot/neutral (all genies) 125-127 vac.  One probe in Hot, one in ground, ~65vac.  On probe in neutral, one in ground, ~65 vac (varies a bit). The grounding screw on the genny is connected to the ground hole in the receptical.  With the genny(ies) off, neutral to ground shows open (no continuity).

So what does this all tell us if anything?  The 1000i’s work fine, the 2000i not at all, and two 1000i’s don’t work either.

Since all three gennies test the same, I intuit (perhaps wrongly) that they all “ought” to work.  I haven’t done the same tests with the 2800 Mitsubishi yet. had other fish to fry this afternoon and evening.

Once again, thanks for the advice,

tony

BB.

Yep, floating AC output... You could try tying Neutral to green wire... But since all gensets (so far) test the same--I doubt neutral/ground bonding would do anything. Reversed Hot/Neutral wiring can be an issue for some UPS systems... But a pure floating AC output does not have a H/N polarity anyway (you are seeing filter caps on the output, and they are floating at +/- ~60 VAC around frame ground--To be expected)

It has been a long time since I had anything resembling an O'scope at home... The Nano DSO's (digital storage o'scope?) for less than $100 .... They sure look nice to have something more than a DMM.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=nano+oscopes

The one issue has been to confirm that they can safely hook to a 120 (or 240) VAC line. Most simple scopes have common frame ground from AC in, to scope metal, to ground clip on leads. So grounding/shocks can be an issue... (and use a 10x probe for 120 VAC?).

-Bill

icarus

Still no answers...I have tried everything I can think of.  I tried running the genny with a 150 conventional light bulb, and then plugged it into the inverter...no joy.  I earth grounded the genny...no joy, then I did both, still no joy.   I can’t possibly think of anything else to try.  As I said, magnum is no help.  Any other ideas are appreciated.

tony

Estragon

Maybe I missed it above, but:
1.  On genny power, I assume there's good AC on the inverter AC outputs, and the AC N/H/G voltages read the same whether read from the genny output or the inverter output.  The bulb and motor loads both run fine running off inverter AC output when in genny pass-through.
2.  Have you tried forcing an EQ (to rule out a glitch in the bulk-absorb-float-standby cycle)?

icarus

Estragon said:

Maybe I missed it above, but:
1.  On genny power, I assume there's good AC on the inverter AC outputs, and the AC N/H/G voltages read the same whether read from the genny output or the inverter output.

Seems good, haven’t checked with a meter, but will
 The bulb and motor loads both run fine running off inverter AC output when in genny pass-through.

Yes
2.  Have you tried forcing an EQ (to rule out a glitch in the bulk-absorb-float-standby cycle)? 

Will give it a try...I’m going to have to read up on how to do an EQ with that charger.  I generally use the Xantrex
Thanks for (all) the advice.

Tony

icarus

I think my inverter an remote are too old to have EQ function...Hmmmn?

tony

icarus

^ You can’t “trick” it into going to EQ until it thinks it’s fully charged, so I don’t have a work around for that.

the mystery continues however.  Like a dog chasing a rat, I can’t seem to give up on this.  I checked the AC plug into the genny and found that for some reason the hot and neutral were reversed, and there was a bit of arcing on the hot lug.  Didn’t solve the problem however.  I then checked the AC wiring in the wiring compartment of the inverter.  All’s well, though the neutral may have not landed well on i’t mate.  (They are wire nuts, not lugs like the larger magnum units).

Then after a number of inverter/remote resets, it started to work...for a while. (This on the Eu 2000i).  I thought perhaps I had solved the issue.  Nope!  Firing up a 10 amp motor load, with the genny running, the inverter says it is “charging 30 amps 13.8 vdc)” but it is not actually passing any current!  Shut the motor load off, unplug the genny, plug it back in and back to the same old, same old.  A couple of resets later, and it still won’t charge.  Last I looked it charged fine on the Eu1000i.  

I then unplugged the remote, reset the inverter, which should restore default settings, and without the remote, it still does not charge, sort of ruling out the remote. I have another remote on another site down the lake, and when I go to work tomorrow, I’ll being that remote home and try it.  I can’t really try the eu1000i on the other site (and it is a 2024 Inverter) however since every thing is hard wired at that site (very complicated, two gennies, transfer switches etc.

I really am at the end of my rope on this...

Tony

Estragon

I know what you mean about the dog chasing the rat.  I can usually deal with the fact that something doesn't work, but I have trouble with not knowing why it doesn't.

Seems to me that it apparently worked for a while is significant (although intermittant problems can be a pain).

icarus

^ Not knowing “why” when all the pieces seem to be properly in place!  I had a funny experience a couple of weeks ago, of a similar dogged nature.  I have an old Maytag wringer washing machine that we use, because originally it came with a Briggs and Stratton engine as we had no real power.  We still use it, because it does a great job, uses very little water.  A few years ago, I home made converted it to ruin on a 1/2 hp 120vac motor, which would run on my little eu1000.  The only problem was that it vibrated the entire case so badly you had to wear ear protection to do laundry.  I was able to find an OEM electric motor mount for it for $15 on ‘ebay so I bought one, go new isolation rings and installed the motor.  It was as quiet as a church mouse...except the wringer would not wring!  (Which is essential for a wringer washer!) (and it had worked fine only days earlier!). So I scratched my head, and thought about everything, and the only thing that had changed was the motor. (I used a newer surplus motor drawing a few less amps) First I thought that the motor might be turning the opposite direction...nope, same direction.  I pulled the wringer head off, and sure enough the drive shaft was turning merrily around, so I took the gear box apart, and it (stuffed with thick molasses type Maytag grease) looked perfect.

Finally it dawned on me that my home made mount mounted the motor on the right side, but the OEM mounts on the left, effectively reversing the direction of the motor. So after 2 days of dinking around, I reversed the leads on the motor, and viola...everything works perfectly.  (There are two slip clutches in the wringer head to change direction, and spinning opposite they would just slip).

The moral...if there is one, is that mechanical things have direct cause and effect, if you can only see how they work.  Given enough time, I can figure most things out.  Electronics on the other hand are black magic absent the knowhow and equipment to diagnose (even if one can do so though potting etc!). So the issue with the magnum still sumps.  I did write to Tech support to see if they have any further ideas.

My guess now is that it is something in the way the 2000i is built that doesn’t play well with the magnum.

Tony