New Green Deal will fail per noted environmentalist

softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭✭

Citing the expense, need for much land, and especially storage technology - batteries.

https://needtoknow.news/2019/03/liberal-environmentalist-says-green-new-deal-will-fail-and-renewables-cant-save-the-planet/

First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries

Comments

  • K_KK_K Registered Users Posts: 4
    This guy is just a nuclear lobbyist. He is constantly writing misinformation articles about renewables. Countless studies have been done which basically say the opposite of everything he says. 
  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Solar Expert Posts: 4,912 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm not sure why anybody would post information from a comedy show "Tucker Carlson" as fact. 

    First "The Green New Deal" is a position paper. It's very short, proposes no specific legislation. You can read it here;
    https://apps.npr.org/documents/document.html?id=5729033-Green-New-Deal-FINAL

    In general I would agree, It's past a time when renewable energy can be effectively used as the sole energy source. There just is too little of it that can be easily stored as potential energy, just hydro and some geothermal. Batteries are still a long way in the future. The largest battery built by Tesla in Australia, is enough to keep that grid going for a very short time (less than 10 minutes) 

    The battery 4 times the size of the current largest battery is proposed by Florida power and Light. It's enough to power Florida for 1-2 minutes! These batteries are designed so that fossil fuel power generators will have time to ramp up. Here is a reply I did to Florida's idea that it wants to be 100% renewable energy by 2050 and setting the example of this battery proposal;

    Other than solar, Florida does have some minimal wind energy, mostly sea breeze which is intermittent, and very, very limited hydro and very limited tidal possibilities as our tidal surge is minimal due to the low latitude.

    For example this battery is going to be 409 megawatt (MW) / 900 megawatt-hour battery (I'm guessing then momentary capacity and the 1 hour capacity)

    Florida uses 233,154,549 MW per year (2017) or 443.6 MW every minute. So this battery proposed could power Florida for 1-2 minutes, without additional input...

    Over night would require a battery 500x that size, 1 cloudy day would require a battery 15000x that size.

    https://www.eia.gov/electricity/state/florida/

    I have repeatedly said I'm a fatalist and believe we are 'infested with humans'. Don't see any real hope, adapt to the rising temps and deal with the decline of civilization. Perhaps as we live on an increasingly crowded planet, disease will rapidly reduce the population. Perhaps better than humans and war fighting over the limited resources in our decline.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Prosine 1800 and Exeltech 1100, 660 ah 24v ForkLift battery. Off grid for @16 of last 17 years. Assorted other systems, and to many panels in the closet to not do more...lol
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 4,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My optimism, the little I have is that the Aliens are going to save us, like they did last time ;)  Below is a good article on the State of the Art.
    Some hope at the end!  --Dave



    APS battery fire highlights safety risks, lack of knowledge

    The recent explosion at an Arizona energy storage facility renewed concerns about battery safety. The incident highlighted the need to educate regulators and lawmakers, a Sonnen official said

    AUTHOR

    PUBLISHED

    June 5, 2019

    The recent explosion at an Arizona battery storage facility that injured four firefighters has put a renewed spotlight on battery safety. While the cause of the April 19 incident at Arizona Public Service's (APS) McMicken storage facility remains under investigation, the industry is trying to find the right balance between rapid expansion and safety.

    "The investigation will help us learn from what happened, so we can apply those lessons to our existing and future clean-energy projects," Suzanne Trevino, spokeswoman for APS, told Utility Dive.

    The Phoenix-based utility is collaborating with first responders, manufacturers, third-party engineers and safety experts during its investigation. The original battery supplier at the Arizona facility was AES Energy Storage, which is now part of Fluence.

    "We intend to pursue ... battery storage. This hasn't changed our determination to move forward on that."

     

    Jeff Guldner

    President, APS

    "Safety is the top priority across the entire electric industry given the inherently hazardous nature of working with high-voltage electricity," John Zahurancik, chief operating officer at Fluence, told Utility Dive in an email. "Safety concerns for energy storage systems are similar to those for any other complex electrical system. ...  Regarding the incident at the APS facility in April, ... we intend to share any learnings that we can, especially material and findings helpful to the entire industry and response agencies." 

    Determining the cause of the explosion is a top priority for APS, given the utility's plan to add 850 MW of battery storage by 2025.

    "This is important because battery technology is such an important future component to the operation of the grid," Jeff Guldner, president of APS said during an open Arizona Corporation Commission meeting shortly after the fire. "We intend to pursue ... battery storage. This hasn't changed our determination to move forward on that. … It's very important that we conduct this investigation and understand how we can safely operate this equipment in these facilities because this is where the industry is going."

    The latest incident

    The APS fire was just the latest incident highlighting the potential dangers associated with battery technology.

    Tesla last month had to issue a software update to adjust the battery settings of its Model S and Model X cars after videos of cars bursting into flames in Hong Kong and Shanghai surfaced in April.

    "Simply put, not all batteries are made equal. This lack of understanding permeates at the regulatory and legislative levels and we are very engaged ... at every level of the chain to help inform and educate the market."

     

    Ani Backa

    Director of Regulatory Strategy and Utility Initiatives, Sonnen

    Other well-documented battery malfunctions have included those of the Samsung's Galaxy Note 7 phone; electric scooters and hover boards; and Boeing's 787 Dreamliner, which resulted in the grounding of the entire fleet in 2013.

    In South Korea, government incentives have spurred the deployment of storage systems in the country, but a lack of experience among developers led to more than 21 battery fires last year, Mitalee Gupta, energy storage analyst at Wood Mackenzie, said during an event at the Atlantic Council in Washington, D.C., last month.

    "That's a big number, especially for the energy storage industry, because it's a fairly nascent industry and it's still ramping up," she said.

    Get electric utility news like this in your inbox daily. Subscribe to Utility Dive:

    A lack of understanding

    For energy storage systems manufacturer Sonnen, the biggest challenge the industry faces in the ramp up of behind-the-meter (BTM) battery energy storage comes down to a lack of understanding regarding the different battery technologies.

    "Simply put, not all batteries are made equal," Ani Backa, director of regulatory strategy and utility initiatives for Sonnen, told Utility Dive in an email.

    "This lack of understanding permeates at the regulatory and legislative levels, and we are very engaged with local organizations, regulatory and legislative staff, and at every level of the chain to help inform and educate the market. We focus our partner and customer education on how to differentiate between the various battery chemistries and the importance of safety, reliability and enhanced customer experience using lithium iron phosphate batteries."

    She added that this deficit in battery chemistry knowledge is also impacting a lot of the ongoing regulatory work, particularly for residential battery storage in the country.

    "We see various proposals across the country that may have the unintended effect of hyping up ungrounded safety concerns, slow down the permitting and interconnection process and provide a barrier to entry to residential battery storage in various markets where customers are simply saying, 'I want one,'" Backa said.

    According to Sonnen, safety has been the primary reason for the company choosing lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) over lithium-ion technologies for its battery chemistry. Sonnen said its LiFePO4 batteries are less flammable than lithium-ion batteries. They are also non-toxic and 100% recyclable.

    Tinkering with chemistry

    In order to reduce the risks from energy storage, scientists around the world are tinkering with chemistry to develop a battery that's both highly efficient and safe.

    Last month, scientists at the Department of Energy's Argonne National Laboratory announced that they developed a new cathode coating, called PEDOT, that uses an oxidative chemical vapor deposition technique that can help solve several potential issues associated with lithium-ion batteries, including fire risk.

    "The coating we've discovered really hits five or six birds with one stone," Khalil Amine, a distinguished fellow and battery scientist at Argonne, said. "This PEDOT coating was also found to be able to suppress oxygen release during charging, which leads to better structural stability and also improves safety."

    Amine told Utility Dive that new coating will be commercially available in the next few years.

    Furthermore, researchers at the U.S. Army Combat Capabilities Development Command's Army Research Laboratory and the University of Maryland have developed a new cathode chemistry that increases efficiency and fire safety, while at the same time reducing weight.

    "Safety is our top priority for all of our facilities including energy storage sites. Our energy storage facilities undergo routine safety checks and have been operating as expected."

     

    Wes Jones

    Communications Manager, San Diego Gas & Electric

    "It combines both high energy density of non-aqueous systems and high safety of aqueous systems," said Chongyin Yang, an assistant research scientist in the Department of Chemical and Biomolecular Engineering at The University of Maryland, said in a statement.

    According to the U.S. Army, the aqueous battery chemistry could also be used in applications that involve large energies at kilowatt or megawatt levels or where battery safety and toxicity are primary concerns, including non-flammable batteries for airplanes, naval vessels or spaceships, as well as civilian applications for portable electronics, electric vehicles and large-scale grid storage.

    Safety is the top concern

    Utilities on the forefront of energy storage deployment told Utility Dive that safety is their No. 1 concern.

    "Safety is our top priority for all of our facilities including energy storage sites. Our energy storage facilities undergo routine safety checks and have been operating as expected," Wes Jones, communications manager for San Diego Gas & Electric said.

    The California utility said that it has taken extra steps to ensure gird operators, personnel and emergency responders are familiar with the technology and its risks.

    The same is true for Hawaii's Kauai Island Utility Cooperative (KIUC), which has worked with the Kauai Fire Department on a protocol should there ever be an incident involving its batteries.

    "KIUC takes safety very seriously: we make sure we're in compliance with National Fire Protection Association regulations and place a continual priority on safety training," Beth Tokioka, communications manager at KIUC, said.

    Both utilities ranked in the top 5 of Smart Electric Power Alliance's 2018 Utility Energy Storage Rankings.

    As the industry and state regulators move toward performance-based ratemaking — Hawaii and Nevada have already passed laws to establish corresponding regulations — an increased focus on battery safety could also benefit a company's bottom line.

    "A relevant consideration in that path is rewarding manufacturer/vendor focus on safety both in the chemistry chosen for the battery, ongoing testing and inspection procedures, and in the way we decommission/recycle the batteries," Backa said.

    Improved safety benefits us all because safe energy storage systems will make our grid more reliable, efficient and cost-effective, Zahurancik said.

    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,218 admin
    Batteries are not the only "fire hazards" out there... A friend of mine has been watching the bidding of a modern 17 year old combined cycle natural gas fired power plant being sold off (built just after the last energy deregulation/ENRON stuff in ~2000)--Because it caught fire a couple years ago and took out one of the turbins (I think the auction and articles below are the same power plant):

    https://www.powermag.com/explosion-and-fire-forces-gas-fueled-combined-cycle-power-plant-offline/
    https://www.isssource.com/blast-shuts-ca-power-plant/

    And they never put the whole thing back online (it was the combined cycle turbine that failed and therefore, only 3 primary turbines sets would run--And the whole plant would be much less efficient because of the loss of the 4th (and only steam) turbine.

    And after a couple years of disastrous summer wildfires, our local utilities are going to be pretty aggressive shutting down transmission lines in rural areas:

    https://www.sfgate.com/homeandgarden/article/prepare-pge-power-shutoff-backup-wildfire-season-13902288.php

    And for some areas, after a shutdown during a windy day, it could take 2-4 days to re-energize those power lines.

    I wonder how many people will be killed by carbon monoxide and gasoline fires from gensets from these policies (arguably from poor grass and woodlands fuel load management policies).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 4,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Down in the valley below us they are being warned that PG & E will be shutting down power even if the wildfire is 300+ miles away. This is to stabilize the grid and they say it will only be an hour or so.....

    Your friend is depending that the N gas is going to be on for his turbines?

    Our fire insurance runs out next month and Lloyds wrote me that they would be raising the policy to 6K. Three times the current so it is adios amigo. We knew this would happen and this winter we added a 2nd XW and its own battery to double the capacity.
    There are spares we always had here but now they are ready at the flip of one AC bypass switch. 

    Three fire pumps here.  Our one neighbor on the hill, has agreed to a mutual protection mode if one of us has to leave. We never expected help here with a fire and the last three here were just a warning to leave. They showed up after it went by.

    I think many of the people who would have been injured from a gasoline genset will be saved when they shut power down and the gas station has to close ;)

    The green thing we are doing is using the amazing Ryobi 10A electric line trimmer. For 2 years now this amazing tool and 200 feet of #12 has done all of our weed/grass control. It started out as a way to avoid the danger of gasoline. It is superior in every way to our old Echo and the only downside is the line cord. Even that was pretty minor. No noise, vibration to your hands, no air filter to maintain, no gas to mix, no pulling to start, a 3 year warrant and 1/3 the cost of the Echo. 

    Who cares about new green deals? This was a no brainer!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,218 admin
    He was looking at the plant support stuff... Lots of vehicles went for good prices, cabinets, tools, etc. All in very good condition.

    The turbines were up for auction, but bypassed when the owner required a $100,000,000 insurance policy to remove/pack for shipment and it was decided that was, at least at the time of the auction, to pull them (apparently at least somebody was going to bid on the turbines).

    Yea, mostly I have used corded tools... I got a Makita set (driver and drill) with Li Ion batteries. They do work very well, but so far, the Li Ion battery replacements are are still in the $100 range ($200 of batteries, new kit at the time was less than $300 (and not even sure if the new batteries work in these slightly older tools)... Oh well, I will cross that bridge when needed.

    Regarding firefighters--Most smaller departments are volunteer--So mutual defense agreements are well represented in the USA.

    https://www.nfpa.org/News-and-Research/Data-research-and-tools/Emergency-Responders/US-fire-department-profile

    Key findings

    • NFPA estimates there were approximately 1,056,200 local firefighters in the US in 2017. Of the total number of firefighters 373,600 (35%) were career firefighters and 682,600 (65%) were volunteer firefighters.
    • Most of the career firefighters (72%) worked in communities that protected 25,000 or more people. Most of the volunteer firefighters (95%) were in departments that protected fewer than 25,000 people.
    • In 2017, 77,900, or 7%, of the firefighters were female. Of the career firefighters 13,400 (4%) were female firefighters. There were 64,500 volunteer firefighters who were female, 9% of the total number of volunteer firefighters.
    • There are an estimated 29,819 fire departments in the U.S. Of these, 2,785 (9%) departments were all career, 2,316 (8%) were mostly career, 5,405 (18%) were mostly volunteer and 19, 313 (65%) were all volunteer.
    • Nationwide 39% of fire departments provided no emergency medical services, 46% provided basic life support (BLS) and 16% provided advanced life support (ALS).
    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 3,721 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bill - FWIW, I inherited an old Hilti drill with dead batteries and no replacements.  I got the old ones repacked recently with new cells for ~$80 CAD each (which would be ~$60 USD).
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,218 admin
    Yea--I have seen there are battery pack rebuilders out their... One of things to look at when needed.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 4,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The one thing missing in the Firefighter Key findings is that volunteer fire departments are having major problems getting volunteers.

    Kind of like the forum here, usage is down because of social media and youtube streaming. I suppose now with quite a few people dying in wildfires, and fighting them, it is safer to stay home.

    We have 4 volunteer fire departments in Mariposa County that are often without staff. The huge Fergusson fire last summer in Yosemite that spread toward us was reported off hwy 140 at 7pm and it was not until late that night that a volunteer responded and it was too late. The Feds knew and did nothing until the next day...
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,218 admin
    A good childhood friend of mine, found out that he died after a run--Was a volunteer for much of his adult life:

    https://www.firehero.org/fallen-firefighter/franck-w-tremaine/

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 4,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sorry to hear about Frank. Never knew him but our age is close.

    We lost one here last summer in the Ferguson fire I was referring to earlier. He cut our road in over 20 years back.
    https://www.firehouse.com/safety-health/video/21014717/fallen-ca-cal-fire-firefighter-braden-varney-honored-at-memorial-service
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,218 admin
    My condolences for your friend Branden.

    It is something--The older we get, the more we find our friends and families slipping away.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • bill von novakbill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 843 ✭✭✭✭
    Photowhit said:
    I'm not sure why anybody would post information from a comedy show "Tucker Carlson" as fact. 

    First "The Green New Deal" is a position paper. It's very short, proposes no specific legislation. You can read it here;
    https://apps.npr.org/documents/document.html?id=5729033-Green-New-Deal-FINAL

    In general I would agree, It's past a time when renewable energy can be effectively used as the sole energy source. There just is too little of it that can be easily stored as potential energy, just hydro and some geothermal. 
    I'd say it's doable (we know how to) it's just not that smart.  There are better ways to provide baseload energy, like nuclear.  And there are better ways to provide peaking power, like combined cycle natural gas.  Batteries will play a big role, but their primary use will be for ancillary services - voltage and frequency stabilization, ramp rate compensation and power factor compensation.  These services allow the grid to run much closer to its maximum capacity, and also allow integration of more renewables.

    As time goes on and more renewables come on line (and the grid gets smarter) we'll be able to shut down some of those nuclear plants and run the natural gas peakers far less often, which is a win overall.  But it will be a long, long time before the last natural gas/nuclear plant shuts down.
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