Lithum, Battle Born battery, claims of peformamce and origin

mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭✭✭
Looking into the world of Lithium batteries for possible alternatives to lead acid, the name Battle Born came up in a thread, so I decided to take a look. What stood out was their claim of 3000 cycles at 100% discharge, which goes against documentation from other manufacturers, if in fact they are a manufacturer, or an assembler, they can't seem to make up their mind on that. Other manufacturers provide graphs showing cycles versus DOD, stating greater than 80 -85% shortens the cycle expectancy, additionally they recommend chaging to 95%, which would leave a useful capacity of 75-80%, which is still respectable, but 100% for 3000 cycles ? Others claim >2000 depending upon DOD, discharge current and so forth, their comparison to LA is also confusing, not being able to choose if LA will only provide 150 or 300 cycles....... So at this point I'm a little skeptical, attached is information provided by Battle Born. One needs to open the link and the pdf, to understand the conflict of information.
https://battlebornbatteries.com/
1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.

Comments

  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 3,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My guess is the BMS is keeping the SOC at ~20-95%, so "usable capacity" is really 100% of the 75% window.

    No idea about the 150-300 LA compare. At 150 cycles, most FLA deep cycle would be barely broken in to full capacity. This, and the 3 year warranty don't inspire a great deal of confidence.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • Iceni JohnIceni John Solar Expert Posts: 103 ✭✭

    "All Battle Born Batteries are assembled in Reno, Nevada, USA."   Where is Tesla's new battery plant in Nevada?   Any connection there?

    John 

    40' Crown bus with 2kW of tiltable panels on the roof:

    Eight Sharp 255W, two Morningstar TS-MPPT-60, Magnum MS2000, Champion C46540 generator converted to propane, eight golfcart batteries, and maybe a small Exeltech inverter for the fridger.

    Southern California

  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Estragon said:
    My guess is the BMS is keeping the SOC at ~20-95%, so "usable capacity" is really 100% of the 75% window.

    No idea about the 150-300 LA compare. At 150 cycles, most FLA deep cycle would be barely broken in to full capacity. This, and the 3 year warranty don't inspire a great deal of confidence.

    That would mean that the actual capacity would be 125Ah, given their calculation of 3000 cycles × 100 Ah= 300 000Ah, without capacity loss over time,or are they really thinking you wouldn't notice a few percentage points before the warranty expires, which is at ~13% of the rated claim, at which point you would be USCWATFAP, u = up, c = creek, f = for, p =paddle, you figure the rest out. Sometimes a little truth in advertising actually pays off, instead of padding in your favor and discrediting the compittiion. Having said that the future of lithium technology looks promising, but exaggerated claims are not benificial. My opinions, others may differ.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2017 #5
    Contacted Battle Born with a query, here are the questions and replies.

    Q. Reading through the specs, some.questions come to mind. The calculation of capacity is assuming a 100% depth-of-discharge over 3000 cycles, from my research into lifepo4 the recommended discharge is 80-85% with charging limited to 95%, the literature claims discharging to 100% is possible but will  this not have a detrimental effect on the cycle expectancy. Some manufacturers claim >2000 cycles and provide graphs for depth-of-discharge vs cycles, temperature vs cycles and so forth. Am I to assume that the chemistry is different which allows 100% discharge without degredation?, because somehow it goes against what I've studied so far. Thanks in advance for any information.

    A. You are correct. Discharging and charging lithium batteries past a certain point can degrade the life of the battery. We took this into account when designing our Battery Management System (BMS) which prevents the battery from discharging and charging to the capacity limits that can harm the batteries over all life. Our goal was to make a BMS that takes all the stress and anxiety of battery maintenance out of the users mind.

    Q.  Thanks for the reply and explanation, would it be safe to assume the actual capacity is about 120A with the extra 20Ah a safeguard against actually fully dischargeing? Additionally are your batteries made up of small cells in a series parallel arrangement or prysmatic cells ? My assumption would be small cells.

    A. The actual capacity is greater than we advertise but you are only able to draw the batteries down to a safe percentage.
    We use cylindrical cells in a series parallel configuration.

    Q. Do you  mind if I share this information on a company  forum, which supports the forum  and sells your batteries, for informational purposes, I'm sure others may be interested 

    A. Not at all all information on our batteries is public. Well except schematics and how we build them.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 4,369 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Almost all BMS based batteries that are designed as a system behave this way. The LG RESU series advertises 10kwh but states useable is 8.8. The BMS keeps you from going lower by turning your "lights out". This is one of the tuff parts of this technology. Losing power is never great and offgrid it is unacceptable in my mind. 

    The loss of power (offgrid) is not as bad if the BMS communicates the state of charge to the user. This is one of the things I do not like about Simplyphi and this company here. A user is back to the AGM method of using voltage or installing a battery monitor and the error it adds when many days of poor charging stack up the error. I think I would rather have flooded and always have over AGM for that reason.

    I know these are very small capacity batteries but I hope the designers will output Soc to the user in the future by wifi, bluetooth or a dedicated meter as LG, Tesla, and a few others do. 


    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • nickdearing88nickdearing88 Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭✭
    mcgivor said:
    Looking into the world of Lithium batteries for possible alternatives to lead acid, the name Battle Born came up in a thread, so I decided to take a look. What stood out was their claim of 3000 cycles at 100% discharge, which goes against documentation from other manufacturers, if in fact they are a manufacturer, or an assembler, they can't seem to make up their mind on that. Other manufacturers provide graphs showing cycles versus DOD, stating greater than 80 -85% shortens the cycle expectancy, additionally they recommend chaging to 95%, which would leave a useful capacity of 75-80%, which is still respectable, but 100% for 3000 cycles ? Others claim >2000 depending upon DOD, discharge current and so forth, their comparison to LA is also confusing, not being able to choose if LA will only provide 150 or 300 cycles....... So at this point I'm a little skeptical, attached is information provided by Battle Born. One needs to open the link and the pdf, to understand the conflict of information.
    https://battlebornbatteries.com/
    I'm very happy with mine so far but that doesn't speak to longevity. I don't think we'll really know until their lifespan is proven in real-life examples. I do feel the company has been honest with me, as I feel they were in reply to your questions. When I questioned how they tested/arrived at their statistics, they stated the 3000 cycles to 100% DOD was their testing model.

    Don't forget to keep in mind the other various benefits of LiFePO4 besides longevity. Every time I read a thread about someone undercharging their LA batteries and worrying about PSOC, I just smile and relax.

    I rarely have any luck cashing in on warranty and insurance claims so that factor has a small influence on my purchase decisions. However, Battleborn did state they take a common-sense approach to warranty claims and also offer a reduced percentage after the 3-year period. Place a wrench across the terminals and short them out, you're out of luck. But run into a problem after proper use and care, they'll work with you.

    *I have no interest or affiliation with Battleborn.*
    Current test system: 4-100w Renogy panels mono/poly, 1 string of 4 panels in series - 24v 100Ah AGM Battleborn LiFePO4 batteries - Morningstar MPPT40 CC - 1500W Samlex PSW inverter
  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes they were forthcoming, responding to questions immediately, which is a good sign of customer service, although I don't have their batteries. It would seem they intend them to be drop in replacements for those who don't want the hassle of carefully monitoring voltage ballance and so forth. Glad you're happy with them and hopefully they give you good service, there seems to be many suppliers in China with similar configurations, been looking around for future consideration, seems lithium is the logical progression, but I'm more inclined to go the prysmatic cell route. One distinct advantage is lithium are less sensitive to temperatures above 25°C than L.A., where my batteries spend most of their time, they also don't need watering,  discharge range is another distinct advantage.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • kellylippkellylipp Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭✭
    Thanks to all for their replies and input about BattleBorn. 

    They are currently offering a package deal on two batteries, a Victron 700 BM and Bluetooth Dongle.  Expires on Friday.  Battery pricing jumps from $899 to $949 on November 1.  Current offer: 2 batteries at $800, Victron 700  at $150, dongle at $50.  Gotta buy the whole package.  Basically getting the BM and dongle for free.

    Based on all of your input I'm thinking of taking the plunge for our new RV.  I won't, though, have any useful info until next spring.  Current plan is 4x100W panels, maybe the Victron (as I'll have their meter) MPPT (though I don't really see the advantage of that in this case) or Tristar PWM or Bogart (both of which I've used before and both show up on the BattleBorn site as confirmed to work).



  • fredyangfredyang Registered Users Posts: 2
    Cycle life of LiFePO4 battery is longer than Li-ion (NMC). Residual capacity can be higher than 80% of the nominal capacity after 2000 cycles. However, that's the cycle life of the cell, not battery pack. As a manufacturer of lithium-ion battery (Shenzhen Leadyo Technology Co., Ltd www.leadyo-battery.com) in China, we are rigorous on the cycle life of battery pack. 
  • fredyangfredyang Registered Users Posts: 2
    Almost all BMS based batteries that are designed as a system behave this way. The LG RESU series advertises 10kwh but states useable is 8.8. The BMS keeps you from going lower by turning your "lights out". This is one of the tuff parts of this technology. Losing power is never great and offgrid it is unacceptable in my mind. 

    The loss of power (offgrid) is not as bad if the BMS communicates the state of charge to the user. This is one of the things I do not like about Simplyphi and this company here. A user is back to the AGM method of using voltage or installing a battery monitor and the error it adds when many days of poor charging stack up the error. I think I would rather have flooded and always have over AGM for that reason.

    I know these are very small capacity batteries but I hope the designers will output Soc to the user in the future by wifi, bluetooth or a dedicated meter as LG, Tesla, and a few others do. 


    Hi Dave, my name is Fred Yang, I work for Shenzhen SmarTEC Technology Co., Ltd. We are a manufacturer of lithium-ion battery manufacturer in China. Our LiFePO4 battery pack has Bluetooth communication function (other communication interface is optional), I am looking for customers who are interested in the lithium battery with Bluetooth function, do you know who may need the batteries?
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 4,369 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There are  two kinds of people Fred, those who want storage, and those who want more storage. I know lot's of them ;)
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • OldManOldMan Registered Users Posts: 128 ✭✭✭

    "All Battle Born Batteries are assembled in Reno, Nevada, USA."   Where is Tesla's new battery plant in Nevada?   Any connection there?

    John 

    The keyword in "assembled." All their itty-bitty cells come directly from China. Not for me. I like batteries assembled from prismatic cells, not 18650 cells. BB is fine if all you want to do is drop them in. BTW, BB's "3000 Cycles" is very optimistic. I'd like to know what pixie dust they sprinkle to get the extra 1000 cycles. I'm sure they're good batteries but not worth $1000 a pop. :/

    Furthermore, BB beats their chest far too much or me to trust them. I'll stick with my friend in China and the prismatic-based batteries. YMMV.
  • OldManOldMan Registered Users Posts: 128 ✭✭✭
    There are  two kinds of people Fred, those who want storage, and those who want more storage. I know lot's of them ;)
    I want all the storage my budget can handle. so I have to look around, but I'll stick with my friend Suisun, in Shenzen, Guangdong province.
  • OldManOldMan Registered Users Posts: 128 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2018 #15
    mcgivor said: ...seems lithium is the logical progression, but I'm more inclined to go the prysmatic cell route.
    You and me both! The thing I like about prismatics, is if one of the cells fails, I can send it back to China and my guy will ship out a replacement prismatic cell and he will eat the shipping. But repairing the battery is easy peasy. I'm buying my BMS from Electric Car Parts in Utah. When it comes to BMS, Carl kicks ass.

  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 2,151 ✭✭✭✭
    First post contains marketing text rather than engineering. Good chance they make nothing and simply resell with a large mark up.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • OldManOldMan Registered Users Posts: 128 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2018 #17
    BB assembles batteries. The cells come from China. All lithium cells come from China. I just deal with the battery company who have been extra cool to work with. Relationships can be fun, I've chatted with Suisun.
  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2018 #18
    softdown said:
    First post contains marketing text rather than engineering. Good chance they make nothing and simply resell with a large mark up.
    Almost all manufacturers in China  will make OEM with your logo, whatever you wish, Softdown Batteries, never have a hard landing, our batteries keep going when others have crashed, choose Softdown Battery , call us direct, call us collect, but call us today! The number is 1 800 BATTERY,  1 800 228 8379 "Warranty may be shorter than it appears, actual product may differ from promotional pictures, void where prohibited, batteries not included".......wait a minute isn't that what I  buying ! ?

    Battle Born do assemble batteries from outsourced cells, they confirmed that in response to an inquiry, I do believe they they are attempting to do the right thing, but their prices are currently too high for what they are, just an option.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 2,151 ✭✭✭✭
    mcgivor said:
    softdown said:
    First post contains marketing text rather than engineering. Good chance they make nothing and simply resell with a large mark up.
    Almost all manufacturers in China  will make OEM with your logo, whatever you wish, Softdown Batteries, never have a hard landing, our batteries keep going when others have crashed, choose Softdown Battery , call us direct, call us collect, but call us today! The number is 1 800 BATTERY,  1 800 228 8379 "Warranty may be shorter than it appears, actual product may differ from promotional pictures, void where prohibited, batteries not included".......wait a minute isn't that what I  buying ! ?

    Battle Born do assemble batteries from outsourced cells, they confirmed that in response to an inquiry, I do believe they they are attempting to do the right thing, but their prices are currently too high for what they are, just an option.
    SB better give me a smokin' price or feel my wrath!  :D
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • OldManOldMan Registered Users Posts: 128 ✭✭✭
    edited January 13 #20
    Just get batteries from China. More for less.
Sign In or Register to comment.