How to tweak absorb

Freewilley

No, I think I have been overcharging.
I am not good at conversions, but there are times I am bulkcharging at 1200 watts, or possibly more...either with the genny and/or solar (when my sig says 1300 watt PV, that is actual, not nominal which would be 1550) I see 1350 often, not just at noon on a good day.

So my problem with not getting to 80% IS that I have been overcharging.....possibly?
By the way, while I have read about overcharging and had it on my mind, I did get advice that as long as the battery is not hot it should not  be a problem
But of course, this is a different type of problem, that the overcharging is causing a change in parameters that I am not aware of. And if true, one of the big issues is that the pattern I am seeing could ALSO be sulphated batteries. That lead to a vicious circle of cramming the batteries to run many EQ cycles.

mvas

Over-Charging means your battery bank is at 100% SOC at the end of Absorb Charge, but you continue charging.
Under-Charging means your battery bank never gets to 100% SOC at the end of Absorb Charge.

What are your batteries doing during Absorb Mode ?
a) Boiling hard with large bubbles = over-charge
b) Many small bubbles = 100% SOC
c) Not bubbling = under-charge

The terms Overcharge / Undercharge, do not specify the Rate / Amps at which you are charging during Bulk Mode.
How do you have the Roll's S-550's connected ?
Either the two old batteries OR the two new batteries in series, for a 12 volt Bank?

2,568 Watt-Hours = 50% DOD x 428AH x 12 Volts

S-550 battery
===========
C/20 rating = 428 AH
10% x 428 AH = 43 Amps Bulk Charge
15% x 428 AH = 64 Amps Bulk Charge
20% x 428 AH = 85 Amps Bulk Charge

Charging
========
1200 Watts / 15 volts = 80 Amps

You are Bulk Charging at nearly 20% of the C/20 rating
At 80 amps, the batteries bank will reach 15 Volts very quickly vs 64 Amps vs 43 Amps.
But then in Absorb Mode, at a constant 15 Volts, the 80 amps will slowly drop down to 8 Amps ( 2% )

So, how long do you Bulk Charge at 80 amps before the 50% DOD Battery Bank hits 15 Volts ?

Bulk = 1.0 Hour ?
=============
896 Watt-Hours = 1.0 hour x 80 amps x 14 volts x 80%

Bulk = 1.5 Hours ?
==============
1,344 Watt-Hours = 1.5 hours x 80 amps x 14 volts x 80%

Bulk = 2.0 Hours ?
==============
1,792 Watt-Hours = 2.0 hours x 80 amps x 14 volts x 80%

Bulk = 2.5 Hours ?
==============
2,240 Watt-Hours = 2.5 hours x 80 amps x 14 volts x 80%

Bulk = 3.0 Hours ?
==============
2,688 Watt-Hours = 3.0 hours x 80 amps x 14 volts x 80%

mike95490

mike95490 said:

This is what the generator is for, start it at dawn, and get the batteries charged.  Bulk with genset, Abs & Eq with solar if you can.

Sorry, to clarify a bit.  To rescue your batteries and get into an EQ cycle, if you don't have enough solar to get to EQ, you :
start the Generator in the morning, and BULK charge the batteries at no higher than the batteries max rate - till your solar can finish the Absorb and then into EQ.
Should be less than $5 of fuel for 1 day.  This process may take 1-3 days, depending on how sick the batteries are.   New battery bank costs way more than $15 if you don't get them charged and sulfate them to death,

Estragon

> @Freewilley said:
> No, I think I have been overcharging.
> I am not good at conversions, but there are times I am bulkcharging at 1200 watts, or possibly more...either with the genny and/or solar (when my sig says 1300 watt PV, that is actual, not nominal which would be 1550) I see 1350 often, not just at noon on a good day.
>

Is that 1350 into the bank, or 1350 output from the pv, less X for loads?


> So my problem with not getting to 80% IS that I have been overcharging.....possibly?

It's possible you're getting to Vabs faster with higher current, and SOC is lower at the transition from bulk to absorb. The transition doesn't happen at a specific SOC, it happens when battery voltage reaches Vabs. That tends to be around 85ish% for me, but YMMV. If you go to absorb faster than me, it just means bulk is shorter, and absorb is longer.


> By the way, while I have read about overcharging and had it on my mind, I did get advice that as long as the battery is not hot it should not  be a problem

Sounds right to me.


> But of course, this is a different type of problem, that the overcharging is causing a change in parameters that I am not aware of. And if true, one of the big issues is that the pattern I am seeing could ALSO be sulphated batteries. That lead to a vicious circle of cramming the batteries to run many EQ cycles.

If the new batteries get to absorb, and have at least a couple of hours at that voltage, I find it hard to believe there would be any significant sulfation yet unless they sat for a long time before you got them.

If they're sulfated, they have diminished capacity. Did the 50% SOC make sense in terms of overnight loads?

mcgivor

@Freewilley In a healthy battery the discharging cycle deposits soft crystal sulphates onto the plates, which in turn lowers the SG, recharging breaks down the soft crystals bringing them back into solution thereby rising the SG to its previous level. If the charge settings are to low, and or terminated too soon, the crystals are not completely disolved, leading to a buildup, which if left unchecked begin to harden, making removal more difficult. This can occur over a short period of time, so the 100% capacity is slowly diminished to a point where 80% of the rated Ah capacity becomes the new 100%, so the transition from Bulk to Absorb occurs sooner giving the impression everything looks normal, but the SG's don't reflect this.

This is the signal to perform a recovery process, before it's too late, this, under ideal conditions requires an equalization which can take up to, or over 72 hours uninterrupted, terminating only if the temperatures rise to over 40 °C.(104°F) , temperature compensation must be employed with the charging source. When the SG has reached the recommended full charge gravity in all cells for one hour the process is complete. Naturally with solar even with a generator this is not practical, so the process takes much longer, at no time should there be any loads, as this retards the procedure, resume the EQ the next day, and so on until completion. Should the SG not rise, the crystals are too hard to be disolved, which would require a more aggressive approach, such as water treatment, not recommended other than a last ditch method when there is nothing to lose. Based on the information provided this is unlikely your case.

No amount of tweaking the absorption will correct a sulfation issue, continued deep cycling will only add to the problem so action need to be taken before it's too late......My opinion, FWIW.

Freewilley

My S550s are two seperate switched strings, in series for 12 volts each string.

I get that overcharging means something different to you and agree that I am undercharging based on your definition.

But what I mean is that I am charging at too high a rate, based on the theory that high current will end my bulk charging phase too soon. That is what I have seen happen again and again over many years. I never had anyone reply with these physical/electrical laws I was trying to bend.

>Is that 1350 into the bank, or 1350 output from the pv, less X for loads?
That is 1350 from the PV. I have no way to measure what is going straight into the batteries.

One of the new batteries sat for 3 months waiting for its mate.

>So, how long do you Bulk Charge at 80 amps before the 50% DOD Battery Bank hits 15 Volts ?

Have not measured this specifically, but if I run the genny for a couple of hours in the morning I can hit ABS within 2 hours for sure. Just not sure if I was as low as 50%. Still not many overnight cycles on this, but can see tomorrow morning.

The capacity of the batteries is kind of hard to judge to figure out the sulphation question. I know that the capacity right now is around 80% if all is perfect, and will go up as I move through 60+ cycles.

>if the new batteries get to absorb, and have at least a couple of hours at that voltage, I find it hard to believe there would be any significant sulfation yet unless they sat for a long time before you got them.

Oh, there is NO problem getting to absorb, and they do everyday. However, the SG may be as low as 1.210 when they hit absorb....

Estragon

SG when they hit absorb really isn't the issue. Absorb is just a stage in charging. SG at that stage may not even be particularly accurate if stratification could be an issue. Unlikely with daily cycled batteries reaching the end of absorb, but possible if electrolyte isn't bubbling at the end of absorb.

With no way of knowing what is going into charging vs loads, it's impossible to say if charging current is too high, too low , or just right. My experience is that there is no such thing as too high current. The batteries will take what they take and no more, but mine are in a cool environment.

The issues IMHO are:
- what is the terminal SG (i.e. when fully charged, defined as a current at Vabs ~ 1%C, and active bubbling)

- are those terminal SGs consistent between cells?

- are the SG readings reliable?

mike95490

For charging health, you need
Enough amps to bubble and stir (de-stratify) the electrolyte
Enough amps for long enough time to drive all the sulfur crystals back into the solution
The amps are roughly controlled by the Voltage the charge controller sets,

Most installs are starved for solar power, and it's a struggle to get the voltage high enough, for long enough to accomplish this task.

Bulk, Absorb, Float are just easy terms for  breaking the charging process into definable stages.
Bulk - increasing the battery voltage high enough to pump amps into the batteries  Lets use 14V
  The controller pumps all available power into the batteries, trying to raise the voltage to the setpoint.
Generally, for flooded batteries, this should not exceed 10-15% of the C rating  ie 100ah battery should not be charged at more than 15amps.   Some controllers can limit this setting for you, keeping the batteries in a safe zone.
 Once this voltage is reached, Bulk is over and it's now time for Absorb.  Holding the voltage steady, the amps will slowly decrease as the battery fills up.   Gassing will start, and this stage starts warming the batteries up.  Sometimes, a controller will use the time spent in Bulk as a guide to the time expected in Absorb ( http://www.magnum-dimensions.com/pt-100-mppt-charge-controller   does this). It's not a bad place to start from.  Other controllers use the tapering amps as a signal the battery is full, but most often, it's a simple 2 or 3 hour time setting.  Then the voltage is decreased to the Float voltage and gassing ceases.

These stages have evolved over time, and are still evolving, most recently, the Bulk voltage recommendations have increased because of warranty claims.

Hopefully, you can start to see what the chemistry is going through and you can get your batteries back into good shape,

mvas

Freewilley said:

But what I mean is that I am charging at too high a rate, based on the theory that high current will end my bulk charging phase too soon. That is what I have seen happen again and again over many years. I never had anyone reply with these physical/electrical laws I was trying to bend.

@Freewilley,

Yes, you are "bending" the default charging rate, which is "10% of C/20 rating" as specified by Rolls.
Not a big deal.
Now, do you understand that Bulk Charge and Absorb Charge work together as a TEAM / a PAIR.

When you increase the Bulks Amps, your battery bank will reach 15 volts much sooner,
but then the time for Absorb Charge to terminate will be longer than typical.

When you decrease the Bulks Amps, your battery bank will reach 15 volts much later,
but then the time for Absorb Charge to terminate will be shorter than typical.

Do you see the inverse relationship of TIME between Bulk and Absorb?

This is why Absorb is not a "timed event", while the "End Amps" setting works well.

Either way the battery bank will be fully charged, at the end of Absorb, not Bulk.
What is, or is not, occurring at the end of Bulk, the midpoint of charging, is almost irrelevant.
You / we need to know - What is happening at the end of Absorb Mode.

Q1)  Are your batteries at 15 Volts, low amps and bubbling by the end of Absorb Mode?
Q2) How are you terminating  Absorb Mode? with a "< 8 amps" setting or "Time" setting?

If you do not have a Remote Shunt that measures the Amps flowing into the battery
then how do you expect the Charge Controller know whether the Amps are going into the Battery, the Load or both?

mcgivor

@Freewilley  Below is an excerpt from the manual for the controller I use, which although not what you have, it explains to some extent the importance of stirring the electrolyte. This is especially important with tall cells such as the ones you have, Google the most common reason L16 batteries fail, again tall cells. My choice is to extend the time in absorption to greater than there are hours of useful sunlight, relying on end amps, this eliminates absorbtion ending soon, on a cloudy day for example. Hope you are not suffering information overload, it will all come together eventually, hopefully sooner rather than later. Some more reading https://deepcyclebatterystore.com/battery-sulfation/

Freewilley

Not information overload, I am thrilled at the discussion.

I do understand the cycles. But what I saw over and over again, and maybe still see, was batteries moving to absorb at a lot SOC. Then absorb running and amps decreasing to almost nil, and the batteries never getting to 80% SOC.
But you folks give me doubt about my new theory that absorb starts early and amps diminish prematurely because of the heavy current I was giving (worst case would have been genny charging at 1200 watts, and genny handling all loads and solar creeping up to 3-400 watts...now that is a lot of amps, and that was not an unusual morning)
Now that I have a Clampmeter I can see the amps going in and understand much better.
One thing I have been able to do (good to be retired)  as the solar built up this morning I switched to BOTH strings, allowing me double power rather than limiting my solar array feeds.
As I hit ABS shortly, I will switch off the WEAK string and abs the strong string. After 3-4 hours of that, I will EQ my weak string which is now coming up higher than I have seen in months (lots of attention but this battery switch is very, very useful)

To the above question How long am I absorbing...I am not ending absorb, just kicked up float to 14.9 as per Surette direction for hard charging

I have lowered ABS point to 14.9 but will see if there is bubbling at that level. While I started this thread about ABS tweaking, only one person has suggested new Surrettes need higher than 14.9 ABS. Surette (Steve) has never suggested that change.....so what do you think of that? I raised it knowing that it would lead to a longer bulk cycle, but is that actually helping me?

Estragon

As long as you're keeping a close eye on watering, which you will be with your SG checking, a high float while debugging is likely okay. Doing it long term though may not be wise. Aside from potentially exposing plates when you can hopefully only check SG once in a while, my understanding is overly high voltages can cause excessive grid corrosion.

Freewilley

So I did not put in too much current today.
The string went to absorb with an SG of 1.225.
Was not bubbling much so I went back to an ABS of 15.1
Drawing 11 amps at near start of absorb
Now, 1.5 hours into absorb, drawing 4 amps and bubbing sufficiently and SG is 1.235. So this is where I say....there is not enough current to raise the SG to 100% in my solar day....Do not know the math, but it looks like I would need MANY hours of absorb, while the Surette formula suggests under 3 hours.
I shall  leave it be and see where it is at in an hour...

mvas

Freewilley said:

Not information overload, I am thrilled at the discussion.

To the above question How long am I absorbing...I am not ending absorb, just kicked up float to 14.9 as per Surette direction for hard charging

I have lowered ABS point to 14.9 but will see if there is bubbling at that level. While I started this thread about ABS tweaking, only one person has suggested new Surrettes need higher than 14.9 ABS. Surette (Steve) has never suggested that change.....so what do you think of that? I raised it knowing that it would lead to a longer bulk cycle, but is that actually helping me?

In this Rolls document ...
http://support.rollsbattery.com/support/solutions/articles/428-state-of-charge-charging-flooded-lead-acid-batteries
The specification is, "End Bulk mode @ 15 Volts and then start Absorb Mode".

We had already discussed this "15 Volt Solar" specification about a year, ago.
15 Volts is not a suggestion, it is the specification for your batteries.
So, WHY have you now changed / lowered to 14.9 Volts?
Do you know more about battery charging than the Rolls Engineers?

I disagree with your comment, "The 15 Volt Setting is due to new Surrettes".
"New Surrettes" - HUH? WHAT?
The 15 Volt setting is a PV Solar charging issue, due to limited sunlight hours.
The specification for all other (non-solar) installations is still 14.7 Volts.

If you truly have 15 Volts at the battery terminals during Absorb Mode
and the Amps flowing into the battery bank is less than 2% or Amps
and you state the SG is still low then 
guess where all of those missing Sulfur atoms are located?
There is only only two places they can be:
a) They are locked up in sulfate crystal on your plates
b) They are in the mud / sludge at the bottom of the battery. 

You claim that, "The amps decrease in Absorb but the SG reading is stil LOW".
If TRUE, then you have very sulfated (undercharged) batteries.
Either the sulfate is still on the plates or you have used EQ & bubbles to blow off the sulfate crystals and they sank to the bottom.

This is an indication of PSOC, Partial State of Charge, for way too long -  ie never reaching 100% SOC.
You need to get those batteries bubbling today, and then every day, going forward.
EQ Mode should not be used to compensate for your chronic daily undercharging.

Freewilley

Yeah, well....no.

Thanks for the reference. Steve Higgins, chief tech at Surrette told me to set the ABS to 14.9. When I said according to Surette I meant a personal recomendation. (But in my last post you replied to, I said I had put ABS back to 15.1)
These batteries have NOT been chronically undercharged. They have only been used for a month and for much of that time they were held at 100% while I cycled the old batteries. I have EQd them a little. I have the readings for the whole month and I am SURE they have been babied.

But maybe I am way off base. I think this is not right. But it IS what has happened to 3 sets of batteries.
Today, lots of sun. 
Now at 3 hours of ABS. SG is 1.240. Slow bubbling. Drawing 2 amps.
When presented with this scenario Steve told me (on previous batterries) to set the float up to 14.9 and "hard charge" them for 2 weeks, then run an EQ. I replied back that....at this kind of charging on a really good day, I will NEVER get them up to 100% and if they are not sulphated now, they will be in 2 weeks for sure.
I followed those instructions and things did not got well.

So MVAS, if this is not right as we agree, and I am not to EQ them, what am I to do???? How am I undercharging them when I have set my absorb high, ran it for 3+ hours, am not getting much current into them....
What should I be doing differently?

Estragon

I think you should EQ as needed, but as an occasional supplement to proper charging, as opposed to doing it to make up for chronic undercharging. I suspect that's what @mvas is saying as well.

Estragon

Have you checked all cells recently? If so, what is the range from highest to lowest?

Freewilley

My new string SG is 1.260 to 1.265
I did get them to 100% yesterday by running a short EQ of an hour on both strings....this brought up my weak string and also topped off the new. They read 1.240 before I ran EQ, but this was active reading. The reading above was taken this morning after they sat quiet all night. Voltage was 12.7.
I am letting them sit today, EQing the weak string and then will EQ the new string for a couple of hours at least...the theory being that it is better to remove any sulphation while I can.
Then I will cycle the new ones overnight....and keep watching how they respond to absorb cycles.

What I am NOT doing is letting the new ones sit at a depleted SOC.

Thanks for asking.

mcgivor

Nice to hear you made  some progress, don't become complacent, you're not out of the woods yet, but getting there, or so it would seem, the aggressive approach is often what it takes, although its a little confusing when dealing with 2 strings, old and new, personally my focus would be on the new ones first, get them in good health and let them do the work, then deal with the weaker set, with an extremely aggressive charging regime, who knows, you just might end up with 2 healthy banks. Good luck! 

mvas

Freewilley said:

What I am NOT doing is letting the new ones sit at a depleted SOC.

@Freewilley ,
That is a very wise decision !
Hardened Sulfate Crystals is like cancer.
It is wise to prevent hardened sulfate crystals vs creating hardened sulfate crystals and then trying to remove.
Using EQ to remove hardened sulfate crystals is like using radiation therapy to kill cancer = it is very hard on the patient.

You do need to frequently EQ your batteries because you are habitually under-charging your batteries.
We need to discover the root cause of your under-charging issue.
Most people do not need to EQ, nor should they EQ, as frequently as you need to.
Every EQ will accelerate the aging process of the plates, but EQ is much better than having hardened sulfate crystals.
At this point you have no choice because you need to get your battery bank to 100% SOC.

During Absorb Mode ...
What is the VOLTAGE at the Charge Controller Terminals vs VOLTAGE at the Battery Terminals?
Could the Charge Controller be reading a much higher voltage vs the voltage at the Battery Terminals?

Are you still using two (2) Charge Controllers?
If yes, then don't you need to change the END AMPS to be = "Less Than 1% on EACH Charge Controller" ?
"Less Than 4 Amps" from EACH Charge Controller would be "Less Than 8 Amps" into the battery Bank?

Near the end of Absorb Mode you must get two identical SG readings, one hour apart.
If the SG reading is still increasing / rising then your battery bank is not yet at 100% SOC - ie keep charging !!!
Therefore, you need to increase your Absorb Voltage Setting by +0.1 Volts and try again.

You have proven that your Absorb Voltage setting must be increased
because your battery bank requires an EQ every day, to get back to 100% SOC.

You know this to be true, but yet you lowered the Absorb Voltage - HUH? - WHAT?
You are in denial of the facts, that are staring you in the face.

You are so worried about over-charging your batteries,
that in fact you are under-charging (slowly killing) your batteries.

Freewilley

I had lowered the ABS setting to 14.9 since things were not working at the 15.1 setting....that is just tweaking.
Which brings up the question, what happens if you go higher than 15.1....I know you are getting awfully close to a low EQ setpoint at that level...but is that what I should do?

As for what happens near the end of Absorb mode...nothing happens. THAT is the problem. The SGs rise to 1.250 and the current reduces to 2 amps or less and that is a state of nothing happening....but does that mean the bank IS fully charged?

I have NO problem running EQ cycles, but am astonished that sulphation is the issue. While one battery sat full charged for 3 months, and that is not optimum, the other is fresh.
I have the records for the 3 weeks I have been using the new ones and they were not under 50% SOC and they did not sit at a low SOC.

Also, when I had this same problem with a new set of batteries, Steve at Surette discouraged me from EQ cycles...basically NOT doing them. He advised just upping float to around 15 volts and keep charging them like that...
Here is one of his replies to my very similar issues..

I would just leave it on float… there is a manual mode on the MX that allows you to restart a bulk but that is dependent on the MX Algorithm..

With Sulfated batteries that can be confused.   

You don’t need a lot of current, just need a higher sustained voltage for a while, tricking the controller to float at a higher voltage is easier.

 

Freewilley

Oh, I was asked about voltage readings at the CC. I have checked these often and there is no variation. Although life would be simpler, and make sense, if that was the case.
The new string has just switched to ABS with active SG measurement of 1.230. That is good. Also, the wattage going in has not exceeded 800 watts.
But the current is now 10 amps (which is below the default cut off end amps setting of 12 amps...but I have set it to 0). So it seems to me that the CCs cut waaay back on current, and then my 3 hours of absorb are up and I am at 1.250....never fully charged.
Of course, my absorb cycle never ends due to my float setting. But the current then is less than 2 amps....

Does this make sense to you folks?

On another note, I researched the Hub as an addition and was going to buy one, but in the manual it states the Mate does very little with the MX controllers. It would not co-ordinate the charging. Bummer.

BB.

If the flooded cell lead acid battery sat for 3 months uncharged (FLA batteries should be recharged at 12-24 hours every 30 days), then self discharge can lead to sulfation of the one battery.

Sulfation from sitting under charged is permanent and any attempts to resolve "true" sulfation problems start to rely on stuff that approaches "magic" solutions (electronic desulfators, battery additives, etc.).

You can cause sulfation to be shed from battery plates via aggressive equalization (gassing). Sulfate crystals are insulators and if you get them off the surface of the plates, the battery will perform better--But the battery will have permanently lost lead from the plates and sulfur from the electrolyte (lead sulfate crystals).

-Bill

Estragon

I wonder if it would be at all useful to do controlled load tests on each of the new batteries? If one or both are sulfated, a load test should show it.

mvas

This is a classic case of Sulfated Batteries.
During Bulk mode - your Voltage climbs too quickly to 15 volts, without the corresponding increase in SG.
During Absorb mode - your Amps fall too quickly to less than 2%, without the corresponding increase in SG.

It feels like, I am in an "Under-Chargers Anonymous" support group.
It is a 12 step program, and you are still at step #1 - Denial.

I am telling you ... Sulfated Batteries
Trojan is telling you ... Sulfated Batteries
BB is telling you ... Sulfated Batteries
Estragon is telling you ... Sulfated Batteries

And after 84 posts ... You ask, "Is a low SG reading is OK?"
No, a low SG reading is not OK.

You must Equalize those batteries until two consecutive SG readings, 1 hour apart, are the same - ie stop rising.
Watch the battery temperature very carefully.
Stop - Cool Down - Repeat.

mcgivor

Very well put, rehabilitation is the only course of action, the longer it is delayed, the worse the situation will become, until sulfation completely takes over all capacity and all that's left is scrap value.
No offense intended, in fact quite the opposite, not putting words in the mouths of others, we are pointing out what seems obvious.

Freewilley

In defense of the notion that I am in denial....
When I started asking about EQ
From Steve at Surrette....
My Best guess... There is a little bit of sulfation, this is causing a rise of voltage tricking the controllers to floating early.  It's a good think you disabled the end amps.  This is why I suggested to set the float a bit higher, as this can trick the controllers to stay at a higher voltage longer helping break up some of this sulfation... 

From estragon
They (should) go into absorb when they hit Vabs. In a healthy bank, that will be ~75-80% full. If the SG is reliably measured low, I would set absorb to a long time (eg 12hrs), disable end amps, and watch current and SG over the next 4-5 hours if possible.

Nobody was telling me to EQ until post 66! And that was one of at least 3 different options.
On an earlier thread, which I started as I put the new batteries into service nobody said to EQ.

I was not playing dumb or in denial, just listening to all the advice....anyway, I am happily EQing now. We shall see where that goes.

mcgivor

Read post #17, way before #66 suggesting EQ, isolating the battery from all loads.

Freewilley

Ok,you got me. I did not reread every post...anyway, that is exactly what I am doing. Today the new string is 1.270-275 and I NEVER saw those numbers on the new ones I started out with 3 years ago.
Having the "second string" to switch over to has been a real welcome change. I do not know why I did not install a switch years ago. Dumb.

Vic

Freewilley,

I DO feel for you ...   there are so many of us,   each saying,   "  do this"   "do   that",   "stop doing that"   ....   "and this"

We ALL are just guessing ...

You are hanging in here trying to process ALL  of the do's  and don'ts.   This CAN seem and be quite overwhelming,   am sure.

The one thing that I might repeat,   please just turn OFF the EA function,  by setting it to ZERO.   This should help remove one variable,   IMO.

Good Luck !!   Vic