New Battery Technologies, New/Unfamiliar Dangers?

BB.

There have been talks about Lead Acid batteries going away here on the forum. Lots of reasons why, but LA seem to be a well known technology, that recycles well, and is relatively safe and benign (lead, sulfuric acid, plastics). While getting lead into your body, and/or sulfuric acid based electrolyte on your eyes/skin is not a good thing--It can be washed off/neutralized pretty easily.

What about the new batteries that are out there. I have been reading up on Li Ion and some of them use Fluorine compounds (mainly in the electrolytes?).

Looking around, it appears that the Tesla power wall batteries do not use Fluorine (but some, non-power wall, battery packs (car?) do contain R134a which can(will?) produce Hydrofluoric acid if burned), but the LG 18650 cells do:

http://www.planegard.com/assets/tesla_emergency_response_guide_powerwall_and_powerpack_eng.pdf

Powerwall and Powerpack systems also include sealed thermal management systems containing coolants
and refrigerants.
Non-Cell Materials found in Powerwall and Powerpack Systems Approximate Quantity

• Ethylene glycol 50/50 mixture with water Powerwall: 1.6 L of 50/50 mixture
• Powerpack: 26L of 50/50 mixture

R134a: 1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane refrigerant

• Powerwall: none
• Powerpack: 400g

3. FIREFIGHTING MEASURES
Responding to a Venting Tesla Energy Product. Smoke emanating from a Tesla Energy Product is an
indication of an abnormal and hazardous condition. The smoke is likely flammable and may ignite at any
time. If fire or smoke is observed emanating from a Tesla Energy Product at any time, evacuate the area, and
notify appropriately trained first responders and the local fire department.
A trained first responder team or the local fire department should shut off power to the Tesla Energy Product,
to prevent charging of the battery. However, shutting off power to the Tesla Energy Product does not deenergized
the battery, and thus a shock hazard may still be present. The Tesla Energy Product should then be
monitored for evidence of continued smoke evolution. Application of high volumes of water from a safe
distance to cool the battery pack may prevent further reaction and prevent a fire from developing.
If a fire develops, the Incident Commander should determine whether an attempt will be made to suppress the
fire (aggressive firefighting) or allow the battery to burn until it self-extinguishes, while protecting
surrounding materials (defensive firefighting).
Virtually all fires involving lithium-ion batteries can be controlled with water. To date, water has been found
to be the most effective agent for controlling lithium-ion battery fires. Water will suppress flames and can
cool cells, limiting propagation of thermal runaway reactions. If water is used, electrolysis of water (splitting
of water into hydrogen and oxygen) may contribute to the flammable gas mixture formed by venting cells,
burning plastic, and burning of other combustibles. Thus copious volumes of water should be used to fight a
lithium-ion battery fire.
Gaseous agents such as CO2 or Halon, or dry chemical suppressants may temporarily suppress flaming of
lithium-ion battery packs, but they will not cool lithium-ion batteries and will not limit the propagation of cell
thermal runaway reactions. Metal fire suppressants such as LITH-X, graphite powder, or copper powder are
not appropriate agents for suppressing fires involving lithium-ion battery packs as they are unlikely to be
effective.
A battery fire may continue for several hours and it may take 24 hours or longer for the battery pack to cool.
A lithium-ion battery fire that has been extinguished can re-ignite due to the exothermic reaction of constituent
materials from broken or damaged cells. To avoid this, remove sources of ignition and cool the burned mass
by flooding with water.
Aggressive Firefighting: If a decision is made to aggressively fight a fire involving a Tesla Energy Product,
then copious amounts of water should be applied from a safe distance. The water may not suppress all cell
thermal runaway reactions within the battery pack, but it may cool cells and control the spread of the fire. If
possible, direct the application of water towards openings in the battery pack enclosure, if any have formed,
with the intent of flooding the pack enclosure. The objective is to contact the surfaces of the affected and
surrounding individual battery cells with water.
Defensive Firefighting If a decision is made to fight a Tesla Energy Product fire defensively, then the fire
crew should pull back a safe distance and allow the battery to burn itself out. Fire crews may choose to utilize
a water stream or fog pattern to protect exposures or control the path of smoke. A battery fire may continue
for several hours and may result in multiple re-ignition events. It may take 24 hours or longer for the battery
pack to cool.
Firefighter PPE. Firefighters should wear self-contained breathing apparatus (SCBA) and fire protective
turnout gear. Cells or batteries may flame or leak potentially hazardous organic vapors if exposed to
excessive heat, fire or over voltage conditions. These vapors may include volatile organic compounds
(VOCs), hydrogen gas, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, soot, and particulates containing oxides of nickel,
aluminum, lithium, copper, and cobalt. Additionally, phosphorus pentafluoride, POF3 and HF vapors may
form

https://www.swe.com/media/files/files/e79f60bf/52500135-S_NEW.PDF (LG cells)

Hazardous Decomposition Production/Products:
None during normal operating conditions. If cells are opened, hydrogen fluoride and carbon monoxide may be released.

Reading about HF (hydrofluoric acid)--That stuff is scary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofluoric_acid

Hydrogen fluoride gas is an acute poison that may immediately and permanently damage lungs and the corneas of the eyes. Aqueous hydrofluoric acid is a contact-poison with the potential for deep, initially painless burns and ensuing tissue death. By interfering with body calcium metabolism, the concentrated acid may also cause systemic toxicity and eventual cardiac arrest and fatality, after contact with as little as 160 cm2 (25 square inches) of skin.

While personal stories are not always the best source of actionable intel, they do give one pause. Here is one where to CR123 batteries failed (apparently, non-rechargeable Li Ion batteries may contain more(?) fluorine compounds--Although, a "wall full" of batteries with even a little Fluorine may be more exposure than two small camera batteries in a fire):

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?340028-Flashlight-Explosion

What are your thoughts/concerns/etc. about Li Ion and other new battery technologies and their, relatively, unknown dangers to the consumer market. The chances of a Li Ion power back failing without outside damage should be small... But structure fires are one of the most common dangers in the US--Residential fires from cooking are about 50% of all fires (~1,300,000 all fires, ~400,000 residential fires per year):

https://www.usfa.fema.gov/data/statistics/

For me, at the very least, a separate battery shed built out of non-flammable materials and the ability to manage water from a hose/fire hose seems to be a good idea for Lithium batteries (and, I have suggested that even a large lead acid bank and electronics, genset, fuel, etc. should be separate from the home/living quarters/garage, if possible, for solar power systems).

What do folks do in remote locations do (the major reason for off grid solar power)?--May not be a nearby fire-department (poor road access during winter/snow, lack of large supplies of water in summer, lack of Solar/Battery/genset power to run fire pump, and local fire department may not be experts in addressing toxic spills of HF... Even the Tesla document gives two options for a battery bank fire, flood with water or let it burn.

-Bill

Dave Angelini

The Tesla has scared me several times over the marketing. I do not get that from what LG has said and built. Here is a recent block picture of a powerwall I saw yesterday in Santa Cruz.  Solar City had installed it but it was not working right with the Ap. The LG  RESU series is passive cooled and there is not an Inverter inside.

I can see your point on a shed except for the same problem all sheds have, people often neglect to use their eyeballs in remote sheds.
The other point is the LG RESU series is designed and has been tested inside the home, I think that is a bit of too much on the eyeball 

Solray

Personally, I don't worry about it or any of the hundreds of other potentially deadly things we all live with every day. It's nice to know what to do and take reasonable precautions but after that, worrying will gain nothing.
Cars, engines, electricity, storms, floods, garage doors, large objects, firearms, wild animals, people, stairs, elevators, and a virtually endless list will all kill you if certain circumstances...so what?
The sky is not falling yet and there is still time to enjoy life if you stop worrying about silly things and use common sense, you'll be fine.

Dave Angelini

Great advice for mental health but I would still look both ways crossing a street if I were you

The webinar from LG yesterday pointed out that LG Chem is a 20 billion dollar business that has been profitable for over 21 years. They are trying to build confidence in the N American market as they see a nice opportunity to grow here.
The cells that are used in the RESU 10 (48V) and the RESU 10H (400V) are the type JH3 and are currently used in the Chevy Volt and still the upgrade battery on the Tesla Roadster. They are a Class 9 hazardous material and the driver needs training and a cert.

westbranch

Dave posted:  They are a Class 9 hazardous material and the driver needs training and a cert.

This does not make sense to me , should we think of this as hazardous but safe to use or 'keep looking over your shoulder '

Dave Angelini

Sorry you don't understand, invite me up for some Canadian Whiskey and I can try again.

 Transporting many different items have different classes and hazards. The people doing it and the warehouse folks can't be stupid or ignorant. It is not really enforced much now, but it will once large batteries are seen in a truck during a traffic stop.
The same for Air Transport which is how I received my batteries from South Korea.
The fire and emergency people need to know how to deal with electric cars and people, so why would you think that knowing exactly what the hazards are is a bad thing? Screen shot for more looking over shoulder

softdown

Finding myself reading more reasons to let other adventurers be the guinea pig for newer technology. If I had limitations on space or weight (or some other lithium friendly challenge), I might try lithium. Otherwise, it seems like lead acid still offers the best value in a solar bank.

Costco offers a lithium power supply that *seems* to weigh less than 12 pounds and costs $1000. Wondering about the sales of that.

Being a bit fascinated by the cult of "suicides" among those with information regarding the Clinton's, it may appear that the presence of lithium batteries may offer convenient "suicide" methodology. It is unlikely that the local detective is going to be in his/her element regarding noxious lithium battery fires. By the way, the Clinton's feel very badly about Debbie Wasserman's upcoming suicide.

Dave Angelini

westbranch said:

Dave posted:  They are a Class 9 hazardous material and the driver needs training and a cert.

This does not make sense to me , should we think of this as hazardous but safe to use or 'keep looker your shoulder '

I had some class 7 exposure on the USS Nimitz and I am fine by the way  Lithium and dry ice are biggest in #9

westbranch

Dave we have some 'fine Rye Whiskys'  but a wee dram has been seen too....  However you would be hard pressed to make it here in an EV....let alone back to the fill station... The last free filling point is the recharge station at the University campus in Willies  Puddle...A > 150 mile trip over rough roads and some very steep inclines and then the last 10 miles of gravel road.... 51*46' 33'' N 124*43' 40''W...

I now understand what I did not grasp at first, there obviously needs to be a safety sticker on the windows or ? specifying the hazards inherent to the vehicle, like a Propane sticker  I had on an older propane fueled pickup...
Dry Ice Class 9... interesting...!

Dave Angelini

No problem, I use gasoline. No charging stations in Mariposa county, yet. I prefer your blended Whiskies, but I am open to a Rye!

westbranch

Some new Ryes  of late:   Seagram's 'Northern Harvest' , FORTY Creek a dark one from Alberta, and the older  Alberta Sipping Whiskey.... if you see them,  all have  character...

Dave Angelini

What I generally do not like is the Irish, American, and Canadian Ryes that have a bite or like Jack Daniels.
Call me velvet but I like smooth Canadian Crown Royal or Canadian Club and Black Velvet. Like most all the cheap blended whiskey also!
That obviously tells you I don't like much Scotch.
How is the fire smoke up your way? I hear it is hurting the solar output as far south as Seattle.

Bill, the LG 18650 cells you sited are not used in the RESU series of residential. They use the JH3 series of flat, non-folded/non-rolled cells. They do have some warning stickers though....

westbranch

Dave, like you we have a 'local' fire ~ 4 miles away, at a higher elev. and we are in the natural air drainage from that area, so since they did a poorly planned back burn we have been seeing lots of dense smoke and the browny blood red sun and this week, the moon..  almost black-red... 
Somewhat startling is the fact that I am still FLOATING each day, though just before the sun drops behind the adjacent hill, usually get there around noon... so still getting ~ 2.2kWh a day, which keeps the fridge going in this hot weather! Haven't had to pull 'the cord' yet and the only noise is the frequent Helio fly-by, but it is so dark in the AM they don't lift off till after 08:00 instead of 06:00!

Dave Angelini

Sounds the same as here. A bit better now that we are 98% and finally back to normal night temperatures. They almost burned down our hospital with a back-burn when the wind shifted.

 We have to be a bit happy that our fire captain is using the fire as an excuse for burning a defense zone for the town. We have some local brains here that the state and the feds are lacking. They really want me to move to the big city and take a bus, walk, hi speed rail....
and not use air conditioning! Please don't get me started with the bozos we elect. 

Good that you can sleep later!  We got the 3 am fire drill to close the windows enough, that I just leave the heat pump on now.
Been raising my glass to the fire men and ladies quite a bit! I bought lunch for a group yesterday. Felt good about that!
Take Care!

PNjunction

Again, the average consumer has no idea about the difference in lithium chemistries, such as with LiFeP04, and the other types.  Most news articles lump them all together.

Much like "what kind of batteries are you running"?  Oh, lead acid.  Not knowing the difference between SLI, Deep-Cycle, Flooded, AGM, or GEL.

Most of the "breakthrough" battery technologies are just investor-bait.  If it doesn't actually reach market, it can live on and prosper solely through patent / IP litigation.  When you invest in one of these companies, ask how much of your investment is going directly to the patent war-chest, and not to any sort of R&D at all.

Dave Angelini

Definitely agree with previous and that is why I place my bet (customer also) on LG Chem. They have a 20+ year history of making a 20 Billion business profitable. Compared to their consumer and IT, the Chem is where they make it!

thomaslemelin

What about Saltwater batteries? As per marketing pitch, they do not contain heavy metals, they rely on saltwater electrolytes. Unlike other batteries (lead acid and lithium ion included) that have to be disposed of with special processes as they use heavy metals, saltwater batteries can be easily recycled.

However, in my country, this technology is relatively untested. Should I go for them or should I stick to lithium ion ones?

bill von novak

thomaslemelin said:

What about Saltwater batteries? As per marketing pitch, they do not contain heavy metals, they rely on saltwater electrolytes. Unlike other batteries (lead acid and lithium ion included) that have to be disposed of with special processes as they use heavy metals, saltwater batteries can be easily recycled.

However, in my country, this technology is relatively untested. Should I go for them or should I stick to lithium ion ones?

I'd wait.  The Aquion saltwater battery failed (company went bankrupt) and the technology has been bought by a new company and is back.  But I'd give it at least a few years to get some field data before relying on them.

MarkC

BB. said:

There have been talks about Lead Acid batteries going away here on the forum. Lots of reasons why, but LA seem to be a well known technology, that recycles well, and is relatively safe and benign (lead, sulfuric acid, plastics). While getting lead into your body, and/or sulfuric acid based electrolyte on your eyes/skin is not a good thing--It can be washed off/neutralized pretty easily.

What about the new batteries that are out there. I have been reading up on Li Ion and some of them use Fluorine compounds (mainly in the electrolytes?).

Interesting that many refiners, producing fuels, use a hydrofluoric acid based process to improve gasoline quality (alkylation).  Although it is inherently more dangerous than the sulfuric acid based process, it is still used with stringent safety requirements (water curtains, containment systems, etc.).  There have been some tragic releases of HF from these units that have resulted in these stringent safety measures being put in place.  HF is extremely corrosive to human tissue (and most materials) - sort of akin to the "alien juice" that continues deck to deck!  I would be concerned if a specific Li battery technology used significant amounts of fluorine, especially in a flammable electrolyte.  Has anyone heard of an actual toxic release attributed to a Li battery fire?   Of course, the current auto refrigerant is a fluorocarbon (HFO-1234yf), but I've not heard of anyone being "gassed" by HF that resulted from an automotive fire - although it does seem possible.  The only "saving grace" is that it HF is so reactive, it quickly forms the acid with ambient moisture and then attacks/corrodes everything nearby to a non-reactive state.  Just hope it is not your lungs! 

Bill said;
What do folks do in remote locations do (the major reason for off grid solar power)?--May not be a nearby fire-department (poor road access during winter/snow, lack of large supplies of water in summer, lack of Solar/Battery/genset power to run fire pump, and local fire department may not be experts in addressing toxic spills of HF... Even the Tesla document gives two options for a battery bank fire, flood with water or let it burn.

I have a remote solar shed (GT) and have done my best to minimize fire hazards.  As I'm not there but a few days at a time, I located it far enough away from my cabin so that it does not burn the cabin down if something does happen - the only answer that actually makes sense to me.   I do hope one day to use my EV battery as an emergency energy supply and get rid of my (golf cart) FLAs.  OTOH, if I was actually off-grid 100% of the time, quite sure I'd come up with a better solution - but not likely this one:
http://blog.aquionenergy.com/microgrid-design-sonoma-winery

Mark

softdown

Every year we get posters that are excited about newer and better battery technology right around the corner. Yet nothing has changed much in the six years that I have experimented/used with solar.

There are pretty fair arguments for lithium though lithium battery fires may be a significant risk considering the distance from fire services to most off grid solar locations. 

After a few years of playing with starting a cabin solar business, I ran my first ad this morning. I plan to sell mundane golf cart batteries for a bit....assuming anyone bites on my ad. 

westbranch

I was quite keen on insetting a LiFePo4 unit as I see there are many new competitors entering the market....  being NEW was an issue that is holding me back from plunging in.... but after reading some of Dave's comments I was thinking of where I could mount any Li type battery that would Absolutely NOT damage the main building (fire)  and still be reasonably close to the Main Distribution Panel and NOT fall below the FREEZING POINT..

Estragon

AFAIK, the problem is with charging in freezing temps. Discharging is okay in colder temps (not sure how much colder though, or what the effective capacity hit is).

In theory, as long as the charging system includes a heater that runs to get the battery up to >0°C before charging, installing in freezing temps should be okay. If it didn't work that way, there wouldn't be much of a market for EVs.

Estragon

If/when the time comes, I'm thinking I'd make an underground, top insulated vault for such a bank. Fire protection and thermal mass. It's not like I'd need to check SGs and water every month or two, just dig them up to replace a couple of times before I get planted.

westbranch

Good point, they are small and would not take up the space needed for my AGMs, and would not require a crane or backhoe to install into the bunker...

littleharbor2

Estragon said:, just dig them up to replace a couple of times before I get planted.

Where are you planning to get planted?  How big is this bunker? 

Estragon

I'll let them surprise me when the time comes, but presumably planted or scattered somewhere in the general area of the cabin.

The bunker wouldn't have to be very big. Would need to find out how much heat they generate in the charging process to be sure the surface area of the vault would disipate it. I've also considered making a vault to store some water for winter visits. I leave jugs of drinking water instead of setting up the filters just for a couple of days, but it can take a couple of days to thaw completely.

softdown

Seems to me like fire danger due to charging off grid batteries below 32F/0C is almost asking for serious problems in many locations. It is presently 39F in the battery room with winter over a month away. I chose the location to prolong the life of the lead acids by a very significant amount.

Estragon

Lead acid are fine charging at well below freezing if not discharged too much. We've already seen lows under -20C, and should see -40 in the 4-6wks. Batteries in an enclosed crawlspace will likely be around -10 to -15C when I get there around early Jan., hopefully fully charged. I put in some more panels mounted vertically and a bit higher than the big arrays so they shouldn't get snow covered this year.

Lithiums are a problem charging below freezing though.

softdown

I still think iron-nickel is very promising given the affordability of solar panels today. Longevity and toughness = many problems solved,

So.....why not iron-nickel? The nickel is just a plating...

mike95490

Water usage.   Wide voltage swing from Absorb to LVD (67V - 42V),  Hi internal resistance,  needs lots of real estate.  and water, uses lots of water, because they are only ~70% eff.

softdown

https://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/comment/380022#Comment_380022

Agreed - but I don't believe there has been great research into improving the technology. With panels so cheap - the charging resistance is a much smaller problem. The real problem with solar batteries - I think? Cost and longevity.