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  • AkoAko Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭
    edited March 2017 #32
    Thanks BB , was hard going but i did read everything in the links , the understanding i ended up with is that basic Volt meters and data from CCs cant be taken as accurate .

    Think i solved my own question as to what voltages msview Daily Logs display as Min/Max , i activating Equalisation after being in Absorption for a while recording a 1 minute State log charting the Sense voltage . At the end of the day i did a historical Log and that recorded the Max Voltage at 31.91 , the Sense voltage and Target voltages during the 4 minutes Log were both lower and stable , showing the precise setting i made for Equalisation and varied by no more than .001v  . Disappointing that msview will not take the data from the Sense connection as obviously the true Min voltage of my batteries will also be lower than the data shown as i use the Daily logs as an indication of usage during the night , clearly my batteries drop to around 3/10th of a volt lower at night than i previously believed them to be . Think thats an obvious oversight with the msview designers by disregarding the object of using Sense wires , for some with long cable runs or undersized cables it could be harmful to their batteries longevity when knowing the true voltage they would have the option to address the situation .
    1050 Watt 24v Array . BP and Atersa 72 cell Panels 
    Morningstar TS-60 Charge Controler
    4 x 6v 605 Apm/Hr Rolls S-605 Batteries
    Solener 1500w Pure Sinewave Inverter
    Studer 400 Watt Pure Sinewave Inverter
  • AkoAko Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭
    Partisipated in Morningstars Websiminar yesterday and had the chance to ask a question and get it answered on air , asked where the ts60 takes the Min/Max voltages from and was informed that if a sense wire is connected then it takes president over evrything including Min/Max figures which is comforting .

    My system has also now changed its charging behaviour in that im starting to see it go into float regularly over the last few days including today , think thats a good thing , no idea how long absorption should be but cant do anything about that still around 2 to 3 hours of bulk then going into absorption around 11.30am but now at least its not spending as long as it would be without Float .

    Not touched any settings done anything that i can think of that would account for the sudden change .
    1050 Watt 24v Array . BP and Atersa 72 cell Panels 
    Morningstar TS-60 Charge Controler
    4 x 6v 605 Apm/Hr Rolls S-605 Batteries
    Solener 1500w Pure Sinewave Inverter
    Studer 400 Watt Pure Sinewave Inverter
  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,844 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Good to hear positive results, keep  watching , marry your system, so to speak, it pays off to understand it's needs, we all learn from the intimacy, it's a journey which pays dividends in the long run, look after those batteries and they will look after you. :)
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • MStar1MStar1 Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭✭
    -The default setting of Float cancel is 12.3V. If the battery bank discharges below 12.30 volts (24.60 volts @ 24 V) the previous night, Float charging stage will be cancelled for the next charge cycle. This can be changed with the TriStar Setup Wizard in MSView.
    -Another thing about the TS which may have been alluded to in this thread is that it does not use a fixed Absorption timer. The cumulative timer for the Transition to Float only counts when Duty Cycle is somewhat low, < 30% for some period of time. Loads will increase the Duty Cycle so you might also want to adjust that setting depending on the typical size of the daytime loads. The Duty Cycle could also increase when it is cloudy or late in the day as well.
    -It is interesting to consider battery sense with the voltage readings. When the loads are higher than the charging and you have a common busbar the voltage drop due to a positive net load will cause a higher voltage at the battery than at the busbar.
    - Reverse current at night is not an issue because it is a series switch. It will not connect until it is able to sense a higher voltage on the input terminal. It will be independent of what the sense voltage is. All that matters is what is at the battery terminal for making the connection in the morning.
    - While string to string currents may be possible it will not be possible to see battery to string currents since it will not connect until the input voltage is higher than the output voltage.
    - If you have a string with a much lower Voc you might want to use a diode on that circuit but I am not sure what the Voc difference would need to be for there to be any substantial reverse current. The string fusing otherwise protects the panels from damage. The biggest concern would be late stage Absorption or Float when it is mostly disconnected (Duty Cycle very low) and any time it is disconnected from the controller when it is sunny. The effect first thing in the morning would be much less significant as it would already be feeding the other circuit before charging and charging will only draw power away from back-feeding.
    - You are likely getting more energy and consistently higher power as we move into spring. The higher the array current is the sooner Duty Cycle Drops below 30%. Also a higher min. voltage will eliminate Float Batt. Trip Timer (Absorption Extension) and/or Float Cancel.



    -MStar Applications EE

  • MStar1MStar1 Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭✭
    edited April 2017 #36
    Also, not only during Load Control can larger loads be shut of prematurely due to their effect on battery voltage but also if there is a voltage drop in the wiring. The current compensation and voltage sense will keep it from disconnecting too soon when there are larger loads.

    -MStar Applications EE

  • AkoAko Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭
    edited April 2017 #37
    Will try and digest and understand all that in the morning , thanks  ,plenty to think about , wish Morningstar had made this type of information available as its extremely interesting .
    1050 Watt 24v Array . BP and Atersa 72 cell Panels 
    Morningstar TS-60 Charge Controler
    4 x 6v 605 Apm/Hr Rolls S-605 Batteries
    Solener 1500w Pure Sinewave Inverter
    Studer 400 Watt Pure Sinewave Inverter
  • AkoAko Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭
    edited April 2017 #38
    Had chance now to read MStar1 post and the new information it contained , made me realise that there are about half a dozen other anomalies that would be good to understand .

    The float being canceled if the voltage drops below 24.6 is a strange thing to include in the program , i know it can be adjusted as i have now done that with mine , i set it to 23v to make sure its never a problem because a load from a motor or pump for a second or two will take voltage down for a moment , if its a fridge or something in daily use then batteries would never go into float because of that , the smaller the battery bank the more chance it would be a problem , there is also no way the unit can tell the battery bank size . 

    As the ts-60 is new to me I have taken take a daily log set to 1 min covering midnight to 8pm so i can check the readings with the daily log produced , most things match up , alarms , faults , daily amps , float , absorption , equalization , temp min/max those are all fine , min/max voltages i have problem with , max sometimes i see but min never , i put this down to the min voltage between the 1 min however i dont understand why i can only see the max some days as its never in bulk obviously and absorption is precise to a hundredth of a volt .

    Another think i cant explain is why the log shows voltage lower than the Batteries and none or very little current early morning and evening , i am hoping its not connected at those times . The mode changes from Night to Bulk in that situation and its well after the current is showing zero and the input voltage is below the sense before changing again to Night .



    1050 Watt 24v Array . BP and Atersa 72 cell Panels 
    Morningstar TS-60 Charge Controler
    4 x 6v 605 Apm/Hr Rolls S-605 Batteries
    Solener 1500w Pure Sinewave Inverter
    Studer 400 Watt Pure Sinewave Inverter
  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,844 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017 #39
    @Ako said :The float being canceled if the voltage drops below 24.6 is a strange thing to include in the program , i know it can be adjusted as i have now done that with mine , i set it to 23v to make sure its never a problem because a load from a motor or pump for a second or two will take voltage down for a moment , if its a fridge or something in daily use then batteries would never go into float because of that , the smaller the battery bank the more chance it would be a problem , there is also no way the unit can tell the battery bank size .

    Setting a voltage to re initiate absorbtion to 23V may prevent the controller going back into absorbtion, but this would be detrimental, if there was a load sufficient enough to draw the voltage down to 23.2V, for example there would be no meaningful  charge, until it drops below 23V. Your initial setting is more realistic, is there not a time that can be included, say 1 minute, so if the voltage is below 24.6 for more than 1 minute, then absorbtion resumes. The state of charge would likely be high so the momentarily drop would mean a very small current when the transition occurs, so float should resume soon after.

    Setting such a low value may satisfy the operator, but may well be a false sence of satisfaction from the battery health standpoint. Personally my setting is at 25v and one minute, there have been times when it went back into absorbtion, but resumes float soon after, the controller is a Schneider not Morningstar. Check if there is a time setting that can be programmed and for what it's worth, don't get too hung up on the float issue, in general the TS60's method of controlling, the absorption % vs cumulative time, is not as simple to understand or visualize as setting an end amps and time in absorbtion, as on some other controllers, but I'm sure much thought has gone into the algorithms and in some ways it does the thinking for you.

    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • AkoAko Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭
    edited April 2017 #40
    Thanks Mcgivor , will look at that again , I think its a matter of knowing what MStar meant , i took it to mean something different than you . I might have misunderstood what MStar1 was saying or possibly i adjusted the wrong setting , i took his explanation to mean only that the float would be cancelled the following day if the voltage dropped below a set voltage not during a current cycle . The lowest voltage my Log has ever shown sines i installed it 3 months ago was 23.99v although it has momentarily dropped below 24.6 every cycle  , if thats what the Morningstar guy meant then my system would never go into float as that momentary drop would constantly canceled  the following days Float , i set mine to 23v knowing it would never go that low . Your understanding and explanation makes perfect sense to me if i have misunderstood MStar1 .

    The issue might be one of terminology , when i initially set up my set-points i took Float Cancel to mean that after going into float it would remain there until the voltage dropped to a certain voltage , i cant remember what that voltages was or if i changed it , possibly i left it at default until i was sure what it meant , after reading MStar1 post i changed it thinking it meant something different . There are 2 manual settings relating to float , maybe i got them wrong way around .

    As things stand i go into float some days with the settings i have now , before that it never did , when i do go into float then it remains there until the voltage drops below float voltage ( 27v ) then only goes into Bulk never absorption , that only happens as the light starts to fade and my input drops , its never happened during the float cycle as i always have a positive charge over load .

    Just found the setting screenshot so attached it .
    1050 Watt 24v Array . BP and Atersa 72 cell Panels 
    Morningstar TS-60 Charge Controler
    4 x 6v 605 Apm/Hr Rolls S-605 Batteries
    Solener 1500w Pure Sinewave Inverter
    Studer 400 Watt Pure Sinewave Inverter
  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,844 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017 #41
    Hi Ako, Believe you're correct about the voltage dropping below a set-point will cancel the next days float. When I first started using a TS60 the question of why it never went into float was of concern, we both got the same reply from tech support, I chose to simply ignore the fact as the batteries were fully charged every day and all SG readings were good. The initial anxiety was probably due to all the posts I read referring to, getting to float every day, and the importance thereof, but I understand now this is based on different controllers, 18 months on and the 2 TS60'S are doing fine, albeit never?? going into float. Perhaps the rationale behind what Morningstar says, is because the voltage is kept at 30v, in your case, the current pulses are reduced to a percentage of what the battery demands, thereby it technically is a float of sorts but at a higher voltage, this could actually be benificial in a cyclical off grid application where there are daily loads. If the application were a standby system, the controller would more than likely go into float regularly as there would be no load, if there was a call for standby power,it would most likely drop the voltage below the setpoint, say 24.6v, and cancel the float for the next day to ensure the battery gets a full charge. These are just my thoughts.

    My primary focus has been on my new Schneider MPPT  CC, which is where the 25v one minute came from, this is not relevant to the TS60, my apologies, been an entirely new learning experience, different to the TS60 but doing the same job.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • MStar1MStar1 Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭✭

    Ako is correct. Float Cancel is not entirely clear unless you read the Help note on the Float Settings Window.

    The idea is to give it some extra juice after an period of autonomy.

    I received some clarification.
    The TS Voltage Thresholds for Float Cancel (12.3V by default) and low battery trip (12.5V by default) for extended Absorption is a slow filtered value rather than instantaneous voltages. Therefore, it shouldn't be affected by transients. 

    It might be possible to carry over to a 2nd day due to low voltages being read at the start of the previous day.
    I try testing this one of these days and see what happens by taking it to a low voltage followed by a couple of sunny days.

    The Exit Float is on a cumulative timer. If it drops out of Float (as indicated by 100% Duty Cycle) for over an hour it will attempt to start a new Bulk/Absorption charge. If it simply isn't late in the afternoon it may make it to Absorption again. 

    The TriStar PWM 30% duty cycle requirement seems like a good thing at least on sunny days since you want it to reach the late stage Absorption charging regardless of the timing typically.
    It is responsive but not always going to work out. The two extremes are chronically undercharged systems and chronically overcharged systems. Systems designed with 2 days max. autonomy on one extreme and Cabins left sitting with no loads on the other extreme.
    If you see it not reaching float you can adjust the % Duty Cycle also so it starts the timer sooner.
    If you are afraid you might be overcharging the batteries or might be away for a good bit, lower default Voltage settings or making adjustments to for lower voltages or shorter times might be considered. If there are no loads or phantom loads only it doesn't take long at all to get to 30% Duty Cycle.

    -MStar Applications EE

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