Mountain cabin off-grid

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Comments

  • Horsefly
    Horsefly Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭✭✭
    Hello everyone, it's me, the OP. I'm back with more questions. You guys have all been awesome so far, so I'm very optimistic!
    1. So let's say I have a MPPT charge controller, and a inverter/charger (probably the Magnum Energy MS4024) both hooked up to my 24V battery bank. I also have a 9kW gas generator hooked up as AC in to the inverter/charger. My understanding is that if we run the generator the MS4024 will automagically route the generator AC to the cabin load, *AND* will charge the battery bank. What I'm not too clear on: Is the MPPT controller OK with that? Is it OK that it is trying to charge the batteries at the same time as the MS4024 is? Or do I need some third magic box to arbitrate between the two?
    2. I think we are leaning towards AGP batteries rather than FLA, mainly to avoid the maintenance and venting. I realize the AGP batteries cost more, but I've found conflicting information on whether they last as long or not. What do you experts think? (I'm hoping on not stepping into a AGP vs. FLA religious war)
    3. Since we've decided on a 24V system, it looks like I can get the same AH from four 6V batteries in series, or a couple of 12V batteries in series, for about the same $$. Aside from the weight of the 12V batteries (130 lbs!) is there any advantage or disadvantage of going with one config or the other?  Extending that logic, I could also go with cheaper, lower AH 6V batteries, and satisfy our needs with two parallel strings of 4 batteries, for a little more. Is there any reason that would be better?
    Thanks again!  I feel like I leave this place smarter every time I visit.

    Steve
    Off-grid cabin: 6 x Canadian Solar CSK-280M PV panels, Schneider XW-MPPT60-150 Charge Controller, Schneider CSW4024 Inverter/Charger, Schneider SCP, 8S (25.6V), 230Ah Eve LiFePO4 battery in a custom insulated and heated case.
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    AGM batteries, generally, have shorter lifetimes than flooded

    The MPPT controller will just throttle itself back as the batteries charge, it won't care, unless the other charging source overcharges the batteries and then you have no idea which charger to blame.

    cheap 6V 200Ah golf cart batteries are always a good place to start, 4 in series will give a respectable 24V bank @ 200ah =4800wh.

    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Horsefly
    Horsefly Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭✭✭
    mike95490 said:
    AGM batteries, generally, have shorter lifetimes than flooded

    The MPPT controller will just throttle itself back as the batteries charge, it won't care, unless the other charging source overcharges the batteries and then you have no idea which charger to blame.

    cheap 6V 200Ah golf cart batteries are always a good place to start, 4 in series will give a respectable 24V bank @ 200ah =4800wh.

    Thanks Mike. 

    My brother-in-law doesn't like the idea of flooded lead acid. He thinks we won't (the three families of myself and my two siblings) won't do the required maintenance to keep them going, so their lifespan will actually be shorter than AGM. He also is afraid of the leaking acid, venting hydrogen, etc.

    Good info about the MPPT. That is what I had hoped. Sounds like we don't need anything special to have both an Inverter/Charger that can charge the batteries and the MPPT charge/controller.

    The config (4 x 6V) is one of the exact configs I am looking at, and specifically for a 24V by 200AH capacity.

    Steve
    Off-grid cabin: 6 x Canadian Solar CSK-280M PV panels, Schneider XW-MPPT60-150 Charge Controller, Schneider CSW4024 Inverter/Charger, Schneider SCP, 8S (25.6V), 230Ah Eve LiFePO4 battery in a custom insulated and heated case.
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I recently bought a new starting battery for my generator and decided on AGM for two reasons. First, although I have a dozen big FLA I maintain regularly, I figured I'd forget about the genset battery. Second, AGMs supposedly self discharge much more slowly which is important for the rarely used generator.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,812 ✭✭✭✭
    Estragon said:
    I recently bought a new starting battery for my generator and decided on AGM for two reasons. First, although I have a dozen big FLA I maintain regularly, I figured I'd forget about the genset battery. Second, AGMs supposedly self discharge much more slowly which is important for the rarely used generator.
    I think the low self discharge is true. I had some top end gels with virtually non-existent self discharge.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Beware of assuming AGM batteries are benign. 

    They are susceptible to thermal runaway and also venting explosive H & O2 gasses, and those have to be factored in, you need the same containment and vent system as flooded batteries do.  Generally won't ever be utilized, but needed anyway,   And Battery Temperature Sensors are NEEDED for all charging sources.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,812 ✭✭✭✭
    I would encourage the Outback 3524 Inverter. The host sells it for a great price, it would save you $400 and quite likely offers a huge surge capability. Morningstar charge controllers are built to handle cold weather Hyper VOC and higher panel voltages...they do cost more. Otherwise, I would go with the Outback FM60 charge controller. Outback has a superior reputation and comes with a 5 year warranty when sold from this site (others may give the 2 year warranty).
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • Horsefly
    Horsefly Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭✭✭
    mike95490 said:
    Beware of assuming AGM batteries are benign. 

    They are susceptible to thermal runaway and also venting explosive H & O2 gasses, and those have to be factored in, you need the same containment and vent system as flooded batteries do.  Generally won't ever be utilized, but needed anyway,   And Battery Temperature Sensors are NEEDED for all charging sources.
    Thanks for that Mike. I hadn't considered that.  I don't think I can overcome the momentum towards AGM at this point, but we can be prepared.  The good thing is, batteries is probably the easiest decision to change late in the process, from what I can tell.

    Steve
    Off-grid cabin: 6 x Canadian Solar CSK-280M PV panels, Schneider XW-MPPT60-150 Charge Controller, Schneider CSW4024 Inverter/Charger, Schneider SCP, 8S (25.6V), 230Ah Eve LiFePO4 battery in a custom insulated and heated case.
  • Horsefly
    Horsefly Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭✭✭
    softdown said:
    I would encourage the Outback 3524 Inverter. The host sells it for a great price, it would save you $400 and quite likely offers a huge surge capability. Morningstar charge controllers are built to handle cold weather Hyper VOC and higher panel voltages...they do cost more. Otherwise, I would go with the Outback FM60 charge controller. Outback has a superior reputation and comes with a 5 year warranty when sold from this site (others may give the 2 year warranty).
    Thank you softdown.

    I did have the Outback 3524 inverter second on my list. Our initial inventory had a semi-worst case instantaneous demand of 3700W, with the surge of quite a bit higher due to the startup of the well pump. That's why I had fallen back to the Magnum 4024. However, I think either can handle nearly all of our needs.

    As for the charge controller, I had gravitated towards the Outback FM60 as you mentioned, but hadn't looked at the Morningstar. I'm not sure how to factor in your comment on it doing well in cold weather. No one will be using any power during most of the coldest months.  Looks like the Morningstar TS-MPPT-60 is pretty close in price to the Outback FM60, with similar top-order specs. I'll add the Morningstar for consideration. Aside from cold temp performance, are there other differentiators?   I see both have Internet connectivity, but that doesn't contribute to us out in the woods (no Internet connectivity).

    Steve
    Off-grid cabin: 6 x Canadian Solar CSK-280M PV panels, Schneider XW-MPPT60-150 Charge Controller, Schneider CSW4024 Inverter/Charger, Schneider SCP, 8S (25.6V), 230Ah Eve LiFePO4 battery in a custom insulated and heated case.
  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭

    softdown mentioned,   ...  "Morningstar charge controllers are built to handle cold weather Hyper VOC and higher panel voltages..."

    This should be reference to MidNite Solar's  Classic Charge Controller (CC) in particular,  and,  to a certain extent,  the MidNite Solar KID (30 A MPPT CC).

    IMO,  the Outback FM CCs are dated.   And have some limitations  --  unlikely that any improvements will be made to them,  as it is reported that there is NO more room for any additional code.  And any Update,  if there is new code will require a control board swap,  or to send the CC back for new code update.

    Morningstar CCs are limited,  as any added function needs some expensive Optional accessory (generally),  so they can become relatively expensive,  IMO.

    For new installations,  there are probably better CCs,  in the same price range.

    AGM batteries do not require checking water levels,  and adding Distilled Water,  but,  you cannot measure the State Of Charge (SOC),  simply by using a Hydrometer.  You must infer how well they are being charged,  which can be difficult.

    Parallel strings of AGMs are difficult to manage,  although,  you may not need more Capacity than would be provided by a single string of batteries.

    FWIW,  Vic


    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • Horsefly
    Horsefly Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2016 #42
    Vic said:

    softdown mentioned,   ...  "Morningstar charge controllers are built to handle cold weather Hyper VOC and higher panel voltages..."

    This should be reference to MidNite Solar's  Classic Charge Controller (CC) in particular,  and,  to a certain extent,  the MidNite Solar KID (30 A MPPT CC).

    IMO,  the Outback FM CCs are dated.   And have some limitations  --  unlikely that any improvements will be made to them,  as it is reported that there is NO more room for any additional code.  And any Update,  if there is new code will require a control board swap,  or to send the CC back for new code update.

    Morningstar CCs are limited,  as any added function needs some expensive Optional accessory (generally),  so they can become relatively expensive,  IMO.

    For new installations,  there are probably better CCs,  in the same price range.


    Thank you Vic. It sounds like you would steer me away from both Outback and Morningstar CCs. Are you willing to name others you might recommend instead?  I can't tell from your comments if you like the MidNite Solars. It sounds like the Magnum Energy PT-100 is newer, and more expensive. I think we will be needing something in the range of 40A or greater.  We would benefit from a remote panel (like 50 ft away), but it seems like most CC's support that. Any further guidance would be appreciated.

    Steve

    Edit to Add: I think we need about 150V Voc, although that may be overkill. Still working the numbers.
    Off-grid cabin: 6 x Canadian Solar CSK-280M PV panels, Schneider XW-MPPT60-150 Charge Controller, Schneider CSW4024 Inverter/Charger, Schneider SCP, 8S (25.6V), 230Ah Eve LiFePO4 battery in a custom insulated and heated case.
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Steve, read about Vics systemS in his sig line...
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Vic said:.......Morningstar CCs are limited,  as any added function needs some expensive Optional accessory (generally),  so they can become relatively expensive,  IMO......
    Limited ?  The 60a MPPT has a ready to go web server for monitoring.  I have it hooked to a wi-fi hub and watch it at my house 300' away.  To update firmware, you need a 9pin serial adapter.    You can even tweak the settings over the web interface,
     If you want to add relay drivers and AGS gear, sure, that's extra.
    I know, I have 2 of them now.

    Midnight Classic has 2 aux outputs, but those are just to drive a relay, they can't handle any power. (have one of those too).
    I use a win XP laptop to update it's firmware, many reports of bricked units being sent back for factory unbricking when windoze updater fails,   http://kb1uas.com/mnsforum/index.php?topic=2663.0

    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,812 ✭✭✭✭
    Horsefly said:
    softdown said:
    I would encourage the Outback 3524 Inverter. The host sells it for a great price, it would save you $400 and quite likely offers a huge surge capability. Morningstar charge controllers are built to handle cold weather Hyper VOC and higher panel voltages...they do cost more. Otherwise, I would go with the Outback FM60 charge controller. Outback has a superior reputation and comes with a 5 year warranty when sold from this site (others may give the 2 year warranty).
    Thank you softdown.

    I did have the Outback 3524 inverter second on my list. Our initial inventory had a semi-worst case instantaneous demand of 3700W, with the surge of quite a bit higher due to the startup of the well pump. That's why I had fallen back to the Magnum 4024. However, I think either can handle nearly all of our needs.

    As for the charge controller, I had gravitated towards the Outback FM60 as you mentioned, but hadn't looked at the Morningstar. I'm not sure how to factor in your comment on it doing well in cold weather. No one will be using any power during most of the coldest months.  Looks like the Morningstar TS-MPPT-60 is pretty close in price to the Outback FM60, with similar top-order specs. I'll add the Morningstar for consideration. Aside from cold temp performance, are there other differentiators?   I see both have Internet connectivity, but that doesn't contribute to us out in the woods (no Internet connectivity).

    Steve
    If the system is hooked up during the winter, usage will have no impact on the possibility of a Hyper VOC incident. Hyper VOC tends to strike very early in the morning before there is sufficient sunlight to turn the charge controller on which helps to drive the incoming voltage down.

    It is a legitimate issue with 48 volt systems in very cold environs. I have not studied the practicalities with a 24 volt system. Hyper VOC forced me to limit my system to two panels in series instead of three. Charge controller warranties do not cover Hyper VOC incidents.

    If you go with Outback, there will never be an issue with a troubleshooter being unfamiliar with the equipment. As far as flashing and updates etc...."The worst enemy of good is better?"
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • Horsefly
    Horsefly Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭✭✭
    softdown said:
    If the system is hooked up during the winter, usage will have no impact on the possibility of a Hyper VOC incident. Hyper VOC tends to strike very early in the morning before there is sufficient sunlight to turn the charge controller on which helps to drive the incoming voltage down.

    It is a legitimate issue with 48 volt systems in very cold environs. I have not studied the practicalities with a 24 volt system. Hyper VOC forced me to limit my system to two panels in series instead of three. Charge controller warranties do not cover Hyper VOC incidents.

    If you go with Outback, there will never be an issue with a troubleshooter being unfamiliar with the equipment. As far as flashing and updates etc...."The worst enemy of good is better?"

    I think I get what you are suggesting. Sounds like there are differences in opinion on the different lines of charge controllers.

    Regarding Hyper VOC: You definitely got my attention. I was planning to go with three panels in series until I saw your post. Now I'm a little worried. I had seen the term in some of the MidNite Solar docs, but not anywhere else. I assume that is just the term they use it? I've tried to find the NEC multiplier info, but can't seem to. I'll search some more. I don't even know what the coldest temperature might be up there in the winter, but I'm sure it is below zero.  I suppose I could go with charge controller rated for 200V Voc and be safe.
    Off-grid cabin: 6 x Canadian Solar CSK-280M PV panels, Schneider XW-MPPT60-150 Charge Controller, Schneider CSW4024 Inverter/Charger, Schneider SCP, 8S (25.6V), 230Ah Eve LiFePO4 battery in a custom insulated and heated case.
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    A Classics Hyper VoC is determined by the CC's max voltage rating (150) plus the banks voltage (24) to give you HyperVoC (174) at which point the CC is built to be in max defense mode, ie shut down.... IIRC.
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Each charge controller mfg has a String Sizing calculator on their web page, and you input your panel and weather data there, to plan for array size & configuration.
    http://www.midnitesolar.com/pages/classic/classic_sizingTool.php
    http://string-calculator.morningstarcorp.com/



    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,728 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    There is nothing wrong with the outback charge controllers for what you want to do. 
    It can be a pain for you to deal with different brands of equipment.
    Stick with the same brand and everything can be networked and you (and your SO) will only have to learn one language.
    I would also price out a split phase Schneider SW and their controller at our host before you decide.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,812 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2016 #50
    This is all you need to fill out to determine the proper charge controller and panels in series: http://www.midnitesolar.com/pages/classic/classic_sizingTool.php

    Here is the $1000 question from that sizing tool: Environmental Data

    Coldest Ambient Temp F°   ____Your number____

    Your number will probably be below -20 F I may think. This adds a significant amount to voltage calculations.

    It is important that you use the coldest number found in the past 30 years or so. Some would even say the coldest number ever recorded. You certainly do not want your precious charge controller to go interstellar .

    I wish I knew how often Hyper VOC takes out charge controllers. It is definitely a very cold weather phenomenon.

    I have been saying Morningstar when I should have been saying Midnite. I am surprised this did not get corrected. Perhaps the companies are related?

    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2016 #51
    Soft down, you should go back and use STRIKE THROUGH so we can see what you really meant... :o
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,812 ✭✭✭✭
    Soft down, you should go back and use STRIKE THROUGH so we can see what you really meant... :o
    Ha....I spent more time trying to format than it might appears.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • Horsefly
    Horsefly Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭✭✭
    There is nothing wrong with the outback charge controllers for what you want to do. 
    It can be a pain for you to deal with different brands of equipment.
    Stick with the same brand and everything can be networked and you (and your SO) will only have to learn one language.
    I would also price out a split phase Schneider SW and their controller at our host before you decide.
    Thanks Dave. I do get the idea of staying with the same brand.  

    I hadn't even looked at the Schneider SW stuff before. They have a 3500W inverter/charger that looks pretty good for only $1495. That's cheaper than either the Outback VFXR3524A ($1770) or the Magnum MS4024 ($2079). I need to go look at their charge controllers too. Is there a catch with Schneider? How come I don't see stuff about them as much as Outback, MidNite, Magnum, etc.?

    Steve
    Off-grid cabin: 6 x Canadian Solar CSK-280M PV panels, Schneider XW-MPPT60-150 Charge Controller, Schneider CSW4024 Inverter/Charger, Schneider SCP, 8S (25.6V), 230Ah Eve LiFePO4 battery in a custom insulated and heated case.
  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,812 ✭✭✭✭
    Remember that when the charge controller handles more voltage, you pay the price of the controller handling less amperage. When studying the Midnite string tool, you will notice a significant correlation.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Getting the same brand and networking stuff together is interesting to those of us who are into that sort of thing, but personally I wouldn't do it. Sort of like getting an Iphone because you use a Macbook. Use the right tool for the job. If you are a bit of a geek like me, you can probably find a way to do the integration stuff.

    That said, Midnite may have an inverter out soon that I might have seriously considered if it was available when I bought a couple of Outback inverters. I should add that I recently had a problem with one of the Outback inverters close to the end of warranty and Outback were very good with getting it solved.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,728 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2016 #56
    Horsefly said:
    There is nothing wrong with the outback charge controllers for what you want to do. 
    It can be a pain for you to deal with different brands of equipment.
    Stick with the same brand and everything can be networked and you (and your SO) will only have to learn one language.
    I would also price out a split phase Schneider SW and their controller at our host before you decide.
    Thanks Dave. I do get the idea of staying with the same brand.  

    I hadn't even looked at the Schneider SW stuff before. They have a 3500W inverter/charger that looks pretty good for only $1495. That's cheaper than either the Outback VFXR3524A ($1770) or the Magnum MS4024 ($2079). I need to go look at their charge controllers too. Is there a catch with Schneider? How come I don't see stuff about them as much as Outback, MidNite, Magnum, etc.?

    Steve
    There are alot of hobiest solar people here who do not mind a mixed system. I mainly work with large homes offgrid and people who do not have time to play arround with this for one reason or another.  I think if you looked into the forum over the years and not just the short time you have been here you would find that Schneider/xantrex/trace have been the leader along with Outback. They are the only two I use because they build a balanced system that is networked and can be viewed anywhere in the world as a system.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • Mountain Don
    Mountain Don Solar Expert Posts: 494 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2016 #57
    IMO, if you want the system to be the most user friendly to all family members go with a single brand that can be networked. Before being struck by lightning and having to replace all the electrnics we had all Outback. After the strike I decided on the MN Kid because I did not need the capacity of the FM60 and I saved some $$ with the Kid. But I sort of miss the networked features I had with all Outback parts. 
    Northern NM, 624 watts PV, The Kid CC, GC-2 batteries @ 24 VDC, Outback VFX3524M
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Coming to the party late, but I second the idea of leaving a couple of panels vertical for the winter.  I have three panels wall mounted on hinges so that when I leave for a while in the winter the small array is plenty to keep the batteries in float.   Mine have held up fine for as long as several months.

    Tony
  • Mangas
    Mangas Solar Expert Posts: 547 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2016 #59
    Same manufacturer and best equipment you can afford.  

    My opinion scale 30% more capacity into the build than it calcs out to accommodate future expansion.

    Agree with Dave's advice. 

       


    Ranch Off Grid System & Custom Home: 2 x pair stacked Schneider XW 5548+ Plus inverters (4), 2 x Schneider MPPT 80-600 Charge Controllers, 2 Xanbus AGS Generator Start and Air Extraction System Controllers, 64 Trojan L16 REB 6v 375 AH Flooded Cel Batteries w/Water Miser Caps, 44 x 185 Sharp Solar Panels, Cummins Onan RS20 KW Propane Water Cooled Genset, ICF Custom House Construction, all appliances, Central A/C, 2 x High Efficiency Variable Speed three ton Central A/C 220v compressors, 2 x Propane furnaces, 2 x Variable Speed Air Handlers, 2 x HD WiFi HVAC Zoned System Controllers
  • Horsefly
    Horsefly Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭✭✭
    Thanks to all you guys for such great information. I asked some stupid questions, and you were kind in answering. Between this thread and a ton of other data on the Internet, I think I've come a long way.  I've got an initial design penciled out from PV through charge controller, battery bank, and inverter/controller. Per comments here, I'm trying to stay with the same manufacturer for the CC and Inverter, and I think I've settled on Schneider Electric.  I'm hoping to have my PV panels such that one or two can be moved to vertical during the winter. 

    Our cabin will be shutting down for the winter by mid-Nov, so I have the bulk of the winter to iterate and refine the design and parts list with my brother, sister, and brother-in-law. I feel much more confident in what I'm looking at now, due in no small to this advice in this thread and elsewhere on this forum.  It's especially nice to feel some of the cobwebs shaking off my MSEE brain cells after so many years!

    Thanks again!

    Steve
    Off-grid cabin: 6 x Canadian Solar CSK-280M PV panels, Schneider XW-MPPT60-150 Charge Controller, Schneider CSW4024 Inverter/Charger, Schneider SCP, 8S (25.6V), 230Ah Eve LiFePO4 battery in a custom insulated and heated case.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    A suggestion or two... Get a sheet of plywood sub floor (or something like 3/4 inch ply--depending on how heavy the stuff you will hanging), and build/wire your system at home--And test. Disconnect the battery+panel wiring, and take the whole assembled unit up to the place in the spring.

    Another suggestion--possibly, if you use exposed wiring (instead of metal conduit)--You might want to sheath the face of the plywood with sheet rock or cement board--And put some cement board (or ceramic tile, etc.) at the base of the e-panel installation. I am always a bit concerned about fire--And keeping the equipment/wiring mounted in such away to avoid spreading flames is not a bad idea.

    Lastly--E-panels... Pre-wired panels that are available for some models/brands of equipment. Can save a bunch of work getting all of the parts together.

    https://www.solar-electric.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=schneider+epanels

    Have fun!
    -Bill

    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset