Alcatel Lucent 12AVR145ET Telecom 12 volt AGM batteries for off grid

bobertcombobertcom Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭✭
Been a while since I have posted, but I have been lurking :# NAWS is my go-to forum! 

Anyway, newbie charging error: I killed my x16 6 volt golf cart batteries over the winter.  They are still going, but the SG after multiple charges and equalize shows I murdered them.  The AGS support kicks on alot to make up for the battery issue.   

They are wired series/parallel for my 24 volt weekend off grid cabin.  I have a Schnieder 4024 inverter, 60 amp MPPT solar charger with x10 180w solar panels, 5500 watt generator backup on autostart.

I happened across 12 Alcatel Lucent 12AVR145ET Telecom 12 volt AGM batteries, see attached photos.  Great price, 6 months old, and load tested.  Gonna series/parallel them to 24 volt as well.  I understand the issues with telecom batteries, but since this is a weekend cabin, I think they will work fine for us.

Soooo....  I'm new to the battery thing as evident by my murder of 16 golf cart batteries (RIP).  Can I get some advise on charging these AGM batteries?    Should I just use the Schneider AGM charge profile on the inverter and MPPT charger?

Thanks all!

Bob

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Comments

  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,370 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Telecom batteries are rated for about 100 cycles of high power usage.  Then they die.   if they are free and you can carry them twice (once to your place, and then shortly to the recycler) then go for it,  you will get a couple months out of them,
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • vtmapsvtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2016 #3
    One of your mistakes with the 16 6-volt golf cart batteries was that you had 4 parallel strings.   If you buy 12 12-volt batteries you will have 6 strings in parallel.   Parallel batteries are a sub optimal design choice that will shorten the life of the battery bank.     NOTE: batteries that seldom get cycled are the exception to the rule.   Telecom batteries are often put in parallel because they do NOT get cycled often.  As Mike pointed out, it will be a mistake to use telecom batteries for daily cycling (whether or not they are in parallel).

    The problem with parallel batteries is that the current does not divide equally between the parallel pathways.  Here's a good link to get started on understanding this:
    http://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/13179/series-rule-of-thumb

    There are many other reasons to have a single string.  For one thing there are stochastic considerations.   The capacity and lifespan of your battery bank is NOT the average capacity and lifespan of the individual cells... rather it is the single weakest cell that will set the capacity and lifespan of the entire bank.

    If you have a single cell (2 volt) system, you have a 1 in 2 chance of buying an above average cell.  If you have a 4 volt system (2 cells in series) you have a 1 in 4 chance of getting 2 above average cells.  If you have a 6 volt system (3 cells in series) you have a 1 in 8 chance of getting 3 above average cells.   For a 24 volt (12 cell) system it's 1 chance in 4096 of getting 12 above average cells.  Don't count on it!

    A more useful way to look at it is to consider the below average cells... you will get some.  But how far below average?  The cell quality has a Gaussian distribution...  The more cells you have, the greater the chance that you will have a far below average cell, an outlier on the Gaussian curve.   If you have 4 parallel strings you have almost 4 times the chance (compared to a single string) of getting a really weak cell.  The more cells you have, the shorter the lifespan of the entire battery bank.

    The optimal design for a system has as few cells as is practical.   If you have a 2 volt system, you have a battery with an expected lifespan longer than a 12 volt battery....  but of course, 2 volts is not practical for the power levels you will use.

    As mentioned in the thread I linked to, each of your parallel strings should have a fuse or non polarized DC circuit breaker.   Fuse size is tricky... if one string (of 4) develops high resistance all of its current will pass through the other three strings... the current is unlikely to divide evenly, causing one of the other fuses to blow, and then the current will be forced into the remaining 2 strings and cause their fuses to blow.  

    And then there are points of failure.  Every cable, crimp, bolted connection, circuit breaker, etc. is a potential point of failure.  Four strings of batteries has many more potential points of failure than a single string.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • bobertcombobertcom Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭✭
    I agree with your assumption about the prior failure.  My charger was not set up correctly for winter and continually undercharged during many below freezing days on the mountain.  That added to my too large of strings= murder.  Further, I discovered 2 batteries that were 10 months older than the other 14, I suspect they were the weak link?  Another rookie error i think...

    Regarding the telecom batteries:  it seems they are well suited for my application because they will only be cycled ounce a month for 3 or 4 days.  The rest of the 25-28 days they will be sitting idle powering my sat internet, cameras, fridge (during summer), and being charged by solar during the day. AGS is turned off while I'm away...

    Newbie thinking:  I though the extra AH capacity and setting the AGS gen support a little higher for when we are there, they would work fine for me... I'm I wrong?  I guess thats the core of my question:  Any suggestions for a charge profile for the 25-28 days the system is sitting idle (or almost idle)?  Then a profile for when we are there...


    For what its worth from the guy I got them from:  he said his he has successfully used these batteries for both off grid and back up.  They will even replace or upgrade them if they fail in the next year.  I know...take with a grain of salt. 

    Thanks again
  • vtmapsvtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭
    bobertcom said:
     Any suggestions for a charge profile for the 25-28 days the system is sitting idle (or almost idle)?  Then a profile for when we are there...
    If (and only if) you can get them fully charged before you go away for a month, I would suggest that you disconnect them... no load and no charge.  It is a virtue of AGM batteries that they have low self discharge.

    If you are planning to discharge them deeply and then go away and let them charge back up, I'm not sure what the best advice is... I have no personal experience with telecom batteries.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,489 admin
    Check the manual for charging set points. In general, at 75F you do not want more than ~14.4 volts (12 volt bank) at the battery terminals... And you do not want that for (probably) more than 2-6 hours.

    After that, check the "float voltage"... Something around 13.4 to 13.8 volts (maximum).

    Or, as vtMaps says--If mostly fully charged (over 90%)--Just disconnect loads and charging sources and let them sit. Should be fine for 3+ months without much problem.

    Note that Lead Acid batteries do very well when stored cold (45F and colder)--Stored hot (95-115F), they are not going to be happy (rapid aging).

    Fully charged Lead Acid Batteries will not freeze in normal winter temperatures. Fully discharged lead acid batteries will freeze near 32F/0C. AGM's are supposed to be "freeze tolerant" (not crack cases/break plates if frozen--However, you cannot charge them when frozen--Would not recommend freezing AGMs on purpose).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • bobertcombobertcom Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭✭
    Thanks for the advice, I'm going up this weekend to install...Wish me luck!
  • bobertcombobertcom Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭✭
    Last question:

    145AH @ 8HRS... what would that be in AH in a parallel/series of 12 batteries at 24 volts total in 20HRS?  The 8HR this is messing me up!

    The plan is to keep the SOC high and not cycle them too deep.  From what I have read, that seems to work well with these batteries.


    Thanks again!
  • littleharbor2littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 1,402 ✭✭✭✭
     145 AH @ 8 hour = 175 AH @ 20 hour rate so at 24 volt x 6  = 1050 AH @ 20 hour rate

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric, 700 ah @24 volt AGM battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • bobertcombobertcom Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭✭
    You rock sir, thanks!
  • VicVic Solar Expert Posts: 2,970 ✭✭✭✭
    bobertcom said:
    Last question:

    145AH @ 8HRS... what would that be in AH in a parallel/series of 12 batteries at 24 volts total in 20HRS?  The 8HR this is messing me up!

    The plan is to keep the SOC high and not cycle them too deep.  From what I have read, that seems to work well with these batteries.


    Thanks again!


    As always,  the Capacity of a battery does depend upon just how deeply one wants to discharge it.  And the differences between the Capacity verses the discharge interval does depend upon the actual battery construction ...

    I might say that those batteries might have closer to about 150 Ah,  BUT,  that is based upon recollection of the following Date Sheet,:
    http://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/wp-content/uploads/12AVR145ET-Flyer-1398.pdf


    FWIW,  YMMV,   and so on.    Vic

    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH [email protected], 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • bobertcombobertcom Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭✭
    I am thinking of not going below 50% SOC...is that too much or too little in ones opinion?
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,370 ✭✭✭✭✭
    occasional discharges that are that deep are not generally a problem, but even twice weekly discharges of that depth will shorten it's service life
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • H2SO4_guyH2SO4_guy Solar Expert Posts: 213 ✭✭✭
    I have been living with used telcom batteries full time for over 31 months.  These are actually stationary 2 volt cells.  They are Panasonic 2 volt cells and 1040 AH @ the 8 hour rate.  I bought 56 cells so I could have 2 strings of 48 volts (2080 AH @ 48 Volts @ 8 hour rate) and have a 12 volt string kept charged to swap in as needed when cells fail.  They were all within .01 volts of each other when I got them used.  They were headed to the smelter, but I just diverted them for the time, but once they fail they will still get smelted. 

    I have used Lucent cells before just to mostly run lighting and some tools.  They worked very well and I got rid of them to trade in for the Panasonics I have now.  I did abuse them pretty bad and they took it well, but I do lots of stuff not reccomended doing off grid.

    Good luck and let us know how it works out.
    12K asst panels charging through Midnite Classic 150's, powering Exeltechs and Outback VFX-3648 inverter at 12 and 48 volts.  2080 AH @ 48 VDC of Panasonic Stationary batteries (2 strings of 1040 AH each) purchased for slightly over scrap, installed August 2013.  Outback PSX-240X for 220 volt duties.  No genny usage since 2014. 
  • bobertcombobertcom Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭✭
    Thanks all, they are installed and for now (fingers crossed) and holding 60-70 SOC overnight with refrigerator, video system, and satellite internet router running.  The sun has not been good since install, so I expect charge profiles to get better... 

    The SOC reading is via the internet using my Combox with the system on and running, so I think that 60-70 SOC may be a bit high...  Am I correct in that assumption?

    I do have a Schneider Battery Monitor, but I did not set it up correctly...
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,142 ✭✭✭✭
    Try to get an Ahr reading to do your assessment... if you had a MidNite WBjr ( along with a Kid or Classic) you would be smiling...
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • bobertcombobertcom Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭✭
    This is what my Combox came up with for last night into this morning... 
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,142 ✭✭✭✭
    OK good...  can you zero that info so you can see just what you have used since changing the batteries from the old set?  I look at both  output and input to verify my Ahr settings for my bank... since change over at midnight I have to assume that the use from sundown to 12:01 AM yesterday is the same as tonight's use.. I usually end up with a small + AHr reading at sundown if I reach Float that day...
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • bobertcombobertcom Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭✭
    Copy that, I'll do that and post up
  • bobertcombobertcom Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭✭
    heres yesterdays:

    .8 KWH used
    3.2 KWH solar in

    not too shabby? 
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,142 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2016 #21
      if you only used .8 and the batteries took 3.2Kwh then they  REALLY need a full charge and an EQ if they will take it...
    rule of thumb for recharge is ~ 110% of use is needed for a full recharge...your number give ~ a 400% ratio... something is just not right, don't know what right now

    ADD: What are your charge parameters and times for Absorb etc.
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • bobertcombobertcom Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭✭
  • bobertcombobertcom Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭✭
    I think that has what you need.  Thanks again for the help
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,142 ✭✭✭✭
    Check Batt temp coefficient, seems a bit large, mine is 3.5, yours 42....???

    Default bat temp ....can you set it to 25*C? that is the normal reference temp AFAIK
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • bobertcombobertcom Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭✭
    It has the battery temp sensor installed, so that should be automatic...???

    The default for the Batt Temp Coefficent was -42. So -3.5 would be ok for AGM batteries?
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,142 ✭✭✭✭
    The BTC is the adjustment your charge controller will make to the Absorb voltage based on the actual temp of the batteries...and it is from the reference temp ( most use 25C) a colder battery needs a higher V and a hotter battery needs a lower V while charging, and you need a battery/remote Temperature sensor (BTS or RTS) to make/allow the CC to  adjust the Voltage it sends to the battery...

    Chekck the makers web site for the coefficient % setting... it is maker specific, FLA is around 5 AGMs less...
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,142 ✭✭✭✭
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • VicVic Solar Expert Posts: 2,970 ✭✭✭✭
    Check Batt temp coefficient, seems a bit large, mine is 3.5, yours 42....???

    Default bat temp ....can you set it to 25*C? that is the normal reference temp AFAIK


    I have not used the Combox,   BUT,  would bet that the --42  mV is for all 12 cells of the 24 V battery bank   ...   which is,   --3.5 mV/Cell/degree C.

    Just guessing,   FWIW,  Vic

    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH [email protected], 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • bobertcombobertcom Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭✭
    copy that I will research.  I do have the BTS sensors installed for all the schnieder gadgets I have.  U guys rock!
  • bobertcombobertcom Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭✭
    so vic, you think the --42mv is correct?
  • VicVic Solar Expert Posts: 2,970 ✭✭✭✭
    bobertcom said:
    so vic, you think the --42mv is correct?


    Typical AGM batteries are in the range of --3-ish mV/Cell/C,  but you should contact the manufacturer for the exact value for your batteries.

    And,  you might consult the documentation for your Schneider system to confirm that the noted Temp Comp value is the total compensation for your system voltage that you have entered,  or that the system has guessed as your battery voltage.

    Vic

    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH [email protected], 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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