how to go into "absorp mode" with load?

pyana1
pyana1 Solar Expert Posts: 39 ✭✭
please bare with me as I'm still new with RE, with that being said .

I have a Morningstar 60 amp charge controller , 4 Trojan t-105's and 1005.5 PV watt (12 volt system)

My load is a Haier chest freezer "start up amps 12 A and run amps 1.69", that I'm trying to run it 24 hours.

I currently have the controller set to battery type #5 which is a flooded battery setting - "absorp stage 14.60" - "float 13.50" and "equalize 15.30" .

And I am having trouble getting HIS system to go into absorp stage everyday, I can't seem to hit the set point of 14.60 with load because the controller keeps me at 50 amps although it's a 60 amp controller (even during "bulk" charge)

my next option I thought would be to set the controller to battery type # 4 which is AGM/flooded - absorp 14.40 - float 13.70 - equalize 15.10 . (Lower set point)

The remaining set point settings are much more lower but they are for "sealed and gel" batteries .

I don't have access to a laptop to customize HIS settings and out of curiosity What would happen if I chose a "seal or gel" setting for a "flooded" battery ?

Comments

  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    Hi pyana1,

    Believe that you might be in the Tropics ... anyway, Warm/Hot PVs will reduce the maximum amount of PV power available. Warm batteries will reduce the Absorb voltage required to maintain the Absorb stage. Also, if the Charge Controller (CC) is in a warm/hot environment, it may well be Limiting its output current to keep from over-heating.

    You did not exactly say weather you are IN Absorb, but with a lower Absorb voltage, or that you cannot get to Absorb, or stay there many times.

    And, we are also guessing about the Freezer's AC line voltage, and therefore how much POWER that the freezer is demanding.

    If your batteries are discharged significantly, over night, Bulk can take quite some time, and perhaps you do not have enough PV power available to proceed from Bulk to the Absorb stage.

    Perhaps, you are saying that when you do get to Absorb, and the freezer starts running, that the CC returns to Bulk, which is normal with heavier loads and limited PV power/CC output capability.

    Gel/Sealed CC Settings are much too low (usually) to fully-charge Flooded batteries. The result of using these settings would be that the battery bank could not supply as much Capacity as would Flooded settings, and would be ruined over an extended time.

    It IS too bad that Morningstar has not discovered a way to get rid of those DIP Switches, AND use a REAL, useful LCD display, IMO.

    Guessing done for now. Good Luck, Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • pyana1
    pyana1 Solar Expert Posts: 39 ✭✭
    Hey Vic.

    you are absolutely right, i am currently in Haiti and will be here for the next two weeks. And yes, i am having trouble getting into absorp mode with my load running,. My Vmax is usually between 14.0-14.4 and Vmin 11.9-11.7. I've noticed Without absorption my Vmin will continues to decrease...
  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    Hi pyana1,

    OK, so, for various reasons -- hot PVs, warm/hot CC and perhaps long run-times of the Freezer -- this may what one should expect.

    And, as you know, battery voltage readings are affected by loads on the batteries at the time, in the past number of hours, and battery temperature, at the very least. This means, that it is often difficult to translate raw battery voltage readings into reasonably accurate SOC estimate.

    As you also know, you will want to use your Hydrometer to measure the actual SOC of the battery, and try to decide if you have enough PV and perhaps battery Capacity.

    It is possible that you might want consider moving to a 24 V system, which would allow about twice the amount of PV with the same CC.

    Believe that Haiti might use 230 V AC Mains, and therefore it will not be easy to use a Kill-a-watt meter to measure consumption over a period of time ... and also if you are 230 VAC, that the Freezer consumes twice the power than if on 120 VAC.

    Good Luck, Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • pyana1
    pyana1 Solar Expert Posts: 39 ✭✭
    Thanks Vic.

    Yes, the freezer is 120 vac. hopefully I will figure something out; as I need this system to be sustainable without my wife having to mirco manage the battery .
  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    Hi again pyana1,

    OK on the Grid being 120 VAC .. forgot.

    You may have a Kill-a-Watt meter, if so, you could measure the power consumption over a period of several days, Average the results for 24 hour days, to see how this compares to a typical day's net power from your solar system.

    You do not want to damage the batteries from under-charging them.

    Doo you have a generator? And assume that you have NO Grid power. Good Luck, Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • zoneblue
    zoneblue Solar Expert Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭✭
    pyana1 wrote: »
    I have a Morningstar 60 amp charge controller , 4 Trojan t-105's and 1005.5 PV watt (12 volt system)
    My load is a Haier chest freezer "start up amps 12 A and run amps 1.69", that I'm trying to run it 24 hours.

    In general terms a 1000W array should be able to easily run a single chest freezer. Roughly you should be producing on an average day (give or take climate): Wh/day= 3 sun hrs * 1000W* 0.77 (CC derate) * 0.85 (inverter derate) * 0.9 (battery efficiency over 24 hrs) = 1800Wh

    The freezer should only need around 1000Wh per day or so, various factors depending. Whats the ambient temp for the freezer? Obviously anything you can do to shade/ breeze/thermal mass the freezer environment, the less it will draw. Until you have an actual Wh/d draw figure all the rest is just guess work.

    You say the controller is running at 50A into 12V. Thats what, 14V * 50A = 700W. Vic is probably right and your PV are running hot. But even so, something is off.

    You dont say if its a TS60 or MPPT60. Also i think you better go back a few steps and tell us exactly how youve set this up, cable sizes, cable lengths, PV specs. Its critically important that the battery completes a full bulk/absorb/float cycle every week at least. Otherwise you are just killing the battery.
    Vic wrote: »
    Believe that Haiti might use 230 V AC Mains, and therefore it will not be easy to use a Kill-a-watt meter to measure consumption over a period of time ... and also if you are 230 VAC, that the Freezer consumes twice the power than if on 120 VAC.

    Oh ye of little faith ;) 220/230/240V power meters are just as available as 110V models. Not sure how you figured a 230V freezer would use more power...
    1.8kWp CSUN, 10kWh AGM, Midnite Classic 150, Outback VFX3024E,
    http://zoneblue.org/cms/page.php?view=off-grid-solar


  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    zoneblue wrote: »

    In general terms a 1000W array should be able to easily run a single chest freezer. Roughly you should be producing on an average day (give or take climate): Wh/day= 3 sun hrs * 1000W* 0.77 (CC derate) * 0.85 (inverter derate) * 0.9 (battery efficiency over 24 hrs) = 1800Wh

    The freezer should only need around 1000Wh per day or so, various factors depending. Whats the ambient temp for the freezer? Obviously anything you can do to shade/ breeze/thermal mass the freezer environment, the less it will draw. Until you have an actual Wh/d draw figure all the rest is just guess work.

    You say the controller is running at 50A into 12V. Thats what, 14V * 50A = 700W. Vic is probably right and your PV are running hot. But even so, something is off.

    You dont say if its a TS60 or MPPT60. Also i think you better go back a few steps and tell us exactly how youve set this up, cable sizes, cable lengths, PV specs. Its critically important that the battery completes a full bulk/absorb/float cycle every week at least. Otherwise you are just killing the battery.



    Oh ye of little faith ;) 220/230/240V power meters are just as available as 110V models. Not sure how you figured a 230V freezer would use more power...

    In addition to hot PVs, had wondered, AND mentioned, that perhaps the CC is warm/HOT, and perhaps the CC might be reducing its output,

    And the Freezer power reference was directly related to pyana1's statement, "My load is a Haier chest freezer "start up amps 12 A and run amps 1.69", that I'm trying to run it 24 hours", but there was no AC V mentioned ... somehow thought that Haiti's Grid was 230 VAC

    Oh, ye of little faith ... must have said/done something to give you a dim vies of some, here ... FWIW, Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • pyana1
    pyana1 Solar Expert Posts: 39 ✭✭
    Yes it's an 60 amp mppt controller , the PV are (4) 250 watt panels all wired in parallel with a couple of renogy mc4y connectors . Going thur the Morningstar log the "Wh" came in as "4460" for today. "3300" for yesterday and "4120" the previous day.
  • pyana1
    pyana1 Solar Expert Posts: 39 ✭✭
    The cables coming from the PV down to the controller is 30 feet. I'm currently using about 10 feet the remaining footage is simply wrapped into a bundle and hung over the CC . The reason is because I wasn't too sure if I wanted the system initially set there.
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    pyana1 wrote: »
    Yes it's an 60 amp mppt controller , the PV are (4) 250 watt panels all wired in parallel with a couple of renogy mc4y connectors . Going thur the Morningstar log the "Wh" came in as "4460" for today. "3300" for yesterday and "4120" the previous day.

    With numbers like that, you should be able to run a freezer and charge the battery. Get out your hydrometer and see what's going on with the batteries. Also check that load... maybe there's something wrong with the freezer.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • pyana1
    pyana1 Solar Expert Posts: 39 ✭✭
    vtmaps wrote: »

    With numbers like that, you should be able to run a freezer and charge the battery. Get out your hydrometer and see what's going on with the batteries. Also check that load... maybe there's something wrong with the freezer.

    --vtMaps

    I was praying so, just don't know why the controller refuse to surpass 50 amps. I can charge with the load but not go into "absorption" . Is it necessary to hit "absorption" daily or is it just a weekly thing?
  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    You should be getting into Absorb at least daily or your batteries will suffer. It is not necessary (or required) to get into Float mode every day, since the sun hours are limited. To make the most of your available panel power, setting the Float voltage equal to the Absorb voltage is a good idea.

    To correctly base the Bulk/Absorb/Float distinction on the state of the battery independent of the load current your CC would have to be able to measure the battery current itself using a shunt at the battery rather than just looking at the current it puts out and the terminal voltage.
    If the CC is capable of putting out more than 50A but the desired upper limit on battery charging current is 50A, then using a shunt at the battery would potentially allow the CC to deliver up to 50A to the battery and additional current o the loads at the same time. The would be making the best use of your potential panel power.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • pyana1
    pyana1 Solar Expert Posts: 39 ✭✭
    I was hoping i didn't need a shunt or fuses, as im on an island and getting to one would be very difficult; i would have to commute very far for one . If I were to unplug the freezer I'd probably "absorb" before noon... And If I were to hit the entire 60 amp I know I'd be able to go into absorption mode with HIS load
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'd suggest something's Hinky here. A freezer should only run for a short time 30 minutes? every couple hours. So most of the time it will be a very minimal load. Is the freezer in the sun? I'd guess the kil-a-watt meter will show it has issues.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Photowhit wrote: »
    A freezer should only run for a short time 30 minutes? every couple hours. So most of the time it will be a very minimal load. Is the freezer in the sun? I'd guess the kil-a-watt meter will show it has issues.
    It's actually a bit confusing. The OP states "My load is a Haier chest freezer (and) I'm trying to run it 24 hours."
    My first take on that statement was that he has it set to run continuously for some reason, perhaps to super-cool it in preparation for receiving a big load to freeze.
    But it could also mean he wants to run it in normal mode, cycling as required, 24/7.
  • zoneblue
    zoneblue Solar Expert Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭✭
    pyana1 wrote: »
    Yes it's an 60 amp mppt controller , the PV are (4) 250 watt panels all wired in parallel with a couple of renogy mc4y connectors . Going thur the Morningstar log the "Wh" came in as "4460" for today. "3300" for yesterday and "4120" the previous day.

    You are confusing a bunch of things. As i said before 14V * 50A is 700W, which amounts to 0.7 of the STC Wp. We generally use 0.77 as a rough average derate, so if your ambient is hot (tropical) then 50A is all you are going to get from that array in fine weather. Cooler days, and cloud edge, you will see a bit more.

    Now the CC is reporting 4000Wh+ per day harvest. This means that 4000/700 nearly 6 sun hours per day. Thats what youd see in the tropics in the dry season. In temperate areas we only get half that. So pat yourself on the back, your getting fantastic yeild from that array.

    The bad news is that if your onyl load is that freezer, then either its terrribly broken, or the battery is terribly broken / internally shorted. No domestic freezer on the face of the earth uses 3kWh/d+. Is it sitting in full sun, inside a greenhouse, have a large hole in the bottom, some kind af giant walk in commercial unit... or what?! Even if a domestic unit compressor was running 100% duty, i doubt whether it would eventhen use that much.

    So you need to look further into this. Kinda soon. The question is whats using all that power? Which inverter are you using?

    Like any diagnostic process, you are going to need some tools, depending on what you can lay your hands on, beg/borrow etc.

    You can for the load :
    - use a clamp meter to measure the DC draw into the inverter when freezer running.
    - listen to the freezer and time how long the compressor runs, verses how long its off each cycle
    - use a kilawatt style meter to measure the AC draw, both during compressor run and compressor off, and/or leave it running 24h and tally the total WH draw.

    Once you know what the freezer is doing, that will either rule out or dictate where to look next. If the freezer is only drawing sub 1200Wh/d (as it should), then something else is haemoraging amps. Is there a wiring fault? Is the battery shorted? Lets cross that bridge when we come to it.
    Vic wrote: »
    Oh, ye of little faith ... must have said/done something to give you a dim vies of some, here ... FWIW, Vic

    Vic, just making sure you werent thinking that life outside of 110V land isnt some alien landscape. You can get at any hardware store here a 230V AC wattmeter, costs you like 20 bucks....just like in the usa you can get a 110V AC wattmeter.... for like 20 bucks. Not much different but does give you a bigger belt!


    1.8kWp CSUN, 10kWh AGM, Midnite Classic 150, Outback VFX3024E,
    http://zoneblue.org/cms/page.php?view=off-grid-solar


  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    guessing a mod sine inverter, keeps the motor heated up, compressor never cools down freezer
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

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