Static Vinyl

I had a thought, and wanted to get your opinions on it. You know those little static vinyl stickers you can get to stick on glass or whatever... Being vinyl, they have to have some kind of R-value to them, right? Whether it's R2 R1 or even R.5 there's at least some R-value. My thought was, why not get some plain clear static vinyl material and cover both the inside and outside of each window? It seems like that could help control heat loss/gain throgh the windows. Then I also thought, since they can create graphics on the vinyl, why couldn't they coat it in a reflective type material such as reflective window film to help even more to reduce solar gain in the summertime?

Thoughts? Questions? Anyone know where to find rolls of static vinyl film?

Comments

  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Static Vinyl

    yes, vinyl has an r factor, but it is really low and not worth using it for insulation purposes. believe it or not even steel has an r factor, but i wouldn't want to insulate with that either.
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Static Vinyl
    niel wrote: »
    yes, vinyl has an r factor, but it is really low and not worth using it for insulation purposes. believe or not even steel has an r factor, but i wouldn't want to insulate with that either.

    From what I understand though, vinyl is a somewhat decent insulator though... I mean, not like real insulation, but putting real insulation in your windows isn't really feasable either. The main benefit to using the vinyl would be using the reflective window film on it so you could put reflective film on the windows during the summer, but remove it in the winter when you do want solar gain.
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,036 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Static Vinyl

    > outside of each window

    Vinyl on outside will only last a few days/weeks. Grit of all kinds will stick to it, and it gets gummy and nasty from the UV.

    I've seen the thick cling vinyl for moveable car window sunshades, but don't know how well an entire window coated with it would work overall. Yes, the vinyl is a better insualtor than glass, but maybe after a month, you will notice problems with it.
    I'd stick with the regular window films, whatever tint, and see if that helps.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
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  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Static Vinyl
    mike90045 wrote: »
    >I'd stick with the regular window films, whatever tint, and see if that helps.

    My problem there is that I live in an inbetween climate. I spend about the same on heating as I do cooling for the year. So if I put a reflective tint on the windows, I might save some money on cooling during the summer, but I'll have to spend that same amount on extra heating in the winter. So the only way it would be economical for me is if I could remove the film every winter... hence the static vinyl idea.
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,036 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Static Vinyl

    Check with a local tint shop, see if they have removeable film. Also, they have clear, but may not stock it. There is also Armor Film, which, when applied, makes the glass hold together when beat by a baseball bat. That may have insulative qualities.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • GreenerPowerGreenerPower Solar Expert Posts: 264 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Static Vinyl

    The Gila film sold at HomeDepot or Lowe's works for both heat and cool. For small windows, for my aunt house, I purchased the transparent acrylic or plexiglass sheet from Lowe's, cut to the size of the window and attach the Gila film on it. With 2 layers of film (one on the glass windows, one on the plexiglass) and the air in between , this acts like a double pane window, quite effective. you can shine a heat lamp from both side and don't feel much of the heat from the other side, close to the feel of a low-E double pane glass window in our house.
    GP
  • lamplightlamplight Solar Expert Posts: 368 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Static Vinyl

    i found my local hardware store resells what are essentially inside storm windows, ive been buying them for the whole house and they make a big difference. not cheap at about $60 per window but its a difference you can feel, they custom make each one, look ok (painted white metal ) , are sturdy clear plexiglass and a custom fit, held in with tacks, airtight. i was looking for something like this for yrs.
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Static Vinyl

    pexiglass will do great in the beginning, but as time goes on and it ages it will cloud over and become more brittle. if you can get that in glass it would do so much better and at those prices it might as well be glass imho.
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,036 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Static Vinyl

    Lexan is a bit tougher than Plexiglas, and costs more, but lasts longer.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • BrockBrock Solar Expert Posts: 633 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Static Vinyl

    Really the insulating value is in the trapped air space in the window. So adding a layer of vinyl might add its own R value (I am guessing .05R) the air space is what is needed.

    In our last house I had two casements (crank out's) and they were the only two I didn't have storms on. I had a local hardware store make up a piece of 1/8" plexy the exact same size as the screens, with the felt / fur lining on one side. The trick was the locking part was blocked by the plexy so I had to wedge 2 dimes in the locking hole right in front of the storm window. They worked great, but my wife didn't like the dimes, then we moved so...

    I guess my point is somehow making an air space is the trick. Heck fiberglass or foam insulation itself isn’t the insulator; it is the trapped air inside it. So spacing a second mostly sealed pane inside or outside the existing window is your best bet. I prefer attaching it on the outside since that side of the window is made to be outside and get wet and it won't bother it much if there is condensation in between the panes. But if it condenses on the inside between two panes then you could have water damage at the bottom where the water collects. But in some case, like our third story casements, outside wasn't an option.
    3kw solar PV, 8 L16's, xw 5548, Honda eu2000i, iota DLS-54-13, Leaf EV, 4 ton horizontal geothermal, grid tied - Green Bay, WI
  • GreenerPowerGreenerPower Solar Expert Posts: 264 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Static Vinyl
    niel wrote: »
    pexiglass will do great in the beginning, but as time goes on and it ages it will cloud over and become more brittle. if you can get that in glass it would do so much better and at those prices it might as well be glass imho.
    Probably thanks to the first layer of Gila film on the window glass, most UV is blocked, the plexiglass behind the windows facing west are still clear and flexible after 3 years. Will see how long it would hold up.
    GP
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Static Vinyl

    gp,
    a gradual clouding will be hard to detect with your eyes so how will you measure it? uv protection may very well extend the life somewhat.
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,036 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Static Vinyl
    Probably thanks to the first layer of Gila film on the window glass, most UV is blocked,

    uh, the first layer of plain window glass knocks out >90% of the UV. if you have dual glaze windows, you've got nil UV.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Static Vinyl

    Most window films and treatments, do little for heat loss, but can significantly reduce heat GAIN. This can be a double edge sword. If you live in a climate where your biggest energy nut it keeping cool, then cutting down on heat gain has it's advantage. On the other hand, if you wish to get as much solar gain through your glass, filming/tinting/lowE or otherwise changing the glass may loose more than you gain. The problem is that most people live in a world where we want both.

    A popular misconception is that glass has some significant insulating property, and that property can be improved. The reality is that glass is a terrible insulator, and high tech add ons only add a tiny fraction of a R-value, or reduce the U-Value.

    In simple terms (not completely accurate but illustrative) a single pane of glass, with calm air on the inside and the outside, will have a R-value of ~R1. The bulk of that R-value comes from the static film of air on each side of the glass. Add moving air outside from the wind, or inside from fans/furnaces/convection and the R-value drops to almost zero.

    Now if you add a second layer of glass with a trapped airspace in between, you go from about an R-1 to about an R2, cutting the heat loss in half,,,pretty good,,, until you consider that the heat loss from the same square footage of wall next to the glass is somewhere between R-11- R-21,, 11-21 times LESS energy lost per square feet. If you consider the r-value of a ceiling it is even more impressive, since more heat is lost through the ceiling. So if it is about saving money, for the same money you spend on exotic window treatments (triple glazing, lowE, exotic gas filled space etc) to gain perhaps another R1, you would be WAY farther ahead adding an additional layer of insulation in the attic!

    You would also be way further ahead buy making/buying insulated window treatments (night shades/window quilts) that can add about an R6 to the window area as well as cut down on convection losses that make the house seem colder than it is.

    The same is true on the flip side. It is way cheaper to shade the glass in the summer to reduce the heat gain, than it is to treat the window. Awnings, shade trees (best bet!) proper overhang design etc are a much more effective way of controlling heat gain.

    Having said all of this, I do believe in at least on layer of insulated glass. In addition to the energy savings, the reduction of fogging or frosting of the glass is well worth it.

    I have used the 3M inside, hairdryer shrunk storm window kits and they work quite well. Cheap and easy to do. I have also made inside storms using a product called "flex-o-pane", a thick, clear plastic. Stretch it over a simple wooden frame, tension fit it into the window opening.

    Our small house in the bush has single pane, old fashioned multipane windows. With inside storms, and window quilts we end up with about an R9 in our old fashioned windows. When it is -30 with the wind blowing we are toasty.

    As with so many energy issues it pays to look at the total picture,

    Tony
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Static Vinyl

    "Our small house in the bush has single pane, old fashioned multipane windows."

    what does this mean? if it's what i think it is, you have lots of heat losses. are they the old storm windows that can slide, circa 1960?

    as to the heat going through a window if it's say 3000btus lost at cold outside temp for say 1 pane then going to 2 will make that 1500btus lost for that same window and the same temps. when you've already got high amounts of insulation in the walls and ceilings the amount of insulation needed to recover that same loss for that 1 window is very high and you would need to recover that for all windows. the extra glass in a window does become cheaper under these circumstances. now if you have 2 inches of fiberglass only in your attic, i will then agree with you that the insulation should go to the walls and ceilings.
    if you have r20 in the walls and ceilings and a window with say r2 and the window is losing using as an example 500btus/ft at a certain inside/outside temp differential then the walls and ceilings are losing 1/10th that or 50btus/ft and you need to make up the 450btus difference in the walls and ceilings. even if you get the walls and ceiling to 0btus lost (impossible), the room will still have the loss presented by the window and it is significant.
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Static Vinyl

    I confess upon reading my previous post, I didn't write it very well. We have Single glazed windows, made up of multiple small panes of glass, 12 light, 3 over 4 pattern in each sash. In the winter we install inside storms, made of the clear plastic, tension fitted into the window jambs. On the coldest nights we have insulated, sealed window quilts that we cover the entire window openings, creating a total of about R-8 for the entire window.

    As to my point about insulated glass. R value is just the inverse of U Value. U value is the heat loss per square foot, per Delta T (inside vs outside) per hour for any give component. A lower U value represents fewer BTUs.

    I don't have my calc books handy, but if you have a 20 ft sq window with an R-value of 2, and lets say that it looses 200 BTUs/hour, or 10BTU/FT Now if you have a 20 ft sq wall with R-20 it will loose 1/20 of that or 10 BTUs. My point is simply that there are way more sq ft of walls, floors, ceilings in a typical house than window. (Understanding that the heat loss through each is different, ceilings being the worst, floors the best, generally) As a result if your goal is to reduce the amount of energy used in toto, then money is (generally) way better spent on insulation than exotic windows.

    Having said all that, good design, and quality components pay off in the long run.

    Icarus
  • BrockBrock Solar Expert Posts: 633 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Static Vinyl

    In our first house I actually built operable storm shutters with 2inch foam as the center. They could be shut from the inside and sealed up pretty tight. On three of the windows we shut them late in fall and sealed them until the spring. It made a HUGE difference in heat loss.

    I got the idea because my father had worked on a project with a passive solar house and when a sensor saw there was no light for 30 minutes it would close roll down insulated shutters on the exterior of the windows. It was overkill but they wanted to see how much heat gain they could get during the day and retain it at night. He said if you just left windows as is they always lost more heat at night then you could gain during the day. And if the windows were really well insulated you got less solar gain during the day, still losing more heat at night.
    3kw solar PV, 8 L16's, xw 5548, Honda eu2000i, iota DLS-54-13, Leaf EV, 4 ton horizontal geothermal, grid tied - Green Bay, WI
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Static Vinyl

    Good point Brock,

    In the solar sunspace/greenhouses we used to build, if the roof glass was not insulated, it could easily loose more heat at night than it could gain during the day. When you think about it, skylights/roof glass are gigantic holes in the roof to let out your heat. I have used covered stryrofoam pop in panels for skylights as well as regular windows for years.

    Tony
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Static Vinyl

    tony,
    ok, we have the same knowledge of the situation and how btus come into play and my point was only that with high existing wall and ceiling insulation already in place that you would need to obtain oh so much more in insulation to offset the losses presented by a single or even a double paned window and you understand my other point that the loss presented by the window is still always there. you're right to a point $ comes into play as to which is more economical.
  • lamplightlamplight Solar Expert Posts: 368 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Static Vinyl
    mike90045 wrote: »
    Lexan is a bit tougher than Plexiglas, and costs more, but lasts longer.

    you know i dont even know what it is, it may be lexan, not glass though
  • lamplightlamplight Solar Expert Posts: 368 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Static Vinyl

    yup, that was the point. :) it works in a noticeable way too!! you can feel the difference. i have had to cut some wood striups to create appropriate stops on a few windows, but well worth the effort.
    Brock wrote: »
    Really the insulating value is in the trapped air space in the window. So adding a layer of vinyl might add its own R value (I am guessing .05R) the air space is what is needed.
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Static Vinyl
    niel wrote: »
    tony,
    ok, we have the same knowledge of the situation and how btus come into play and my point was only that with high existing wall and ceiling insulation already in place that you would need to obtain oh so much more in insulation to offset the losses presented by a single or even a double paned window and you understand my other point that the loss presented by the window is still always there. you're right to a point $ comes into play as to which is more economical.

    Neil,

    To beat a dead horse,,

    When we here are advising people about PV, we tell them that conservation is their cheapest Pv dollar, and to "Do the math".

    My point is that, all else being equal,, if you "Do the math" regarding windows, money spent on exotic glazings (beyond double glazed) is usually better spent somewhere else. If the reality here is to use the FEWEST BTUs to heat (or cool) then there is way more bang for the buck with added, even superinsulating other parts of the structure.

    For example, instead of spending $1000 on triple glazing to save 100,000BTUs annually, if you spent the same $1000 to go from R-38 to R-60 in the ceiling might save 1 million BTUs. (I made up all these numbers to illustrate the point,,,as I away say,,"Do the math!")

    Tony

    PS Other technologies have an even more impressive payoff. Air to air exhaust heat exchangers, window quilts and pop in panels etc are even cheaper and give a better bang for the buck.

    T

    PPS. This discussion assumes new or remodel construction. New windows are of course cheaper than adding more insulation to the outside walls of an existing house. On the other hand, in a typical attic space, adding blow in fibreglass is cheap, easy and very effective, as is adding a layer under the floor.
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Static Vinyl

    yes, i guess the horse is dead now, but know that i only meant adding another layer of glass be it in a new window or some type of addon with nothing mentioned about exotic.
    flatlined.
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Static Vinyl
    icarus wrote: »
    Neil,

    To beat a dead horse,,

    When we here are advising people about PV, we tell them that conservation is their cheapest Pv dollar, and to "Do the math".

    My point is that, all else being equal,, if you "Do the math" regarding windows, money spent on exotic glazings (beyond double glazed) is usually better spent somewhere else. If the reality here is to use the FEWEST BTUs to heat (or cool) then there is way more bang for the buck with added, even superinsulating other parts of the structure.

    For example, instead of spending $1000 on triple glazing to save 100,000BTUs annually, if you spent the same $1000 to go from R-38 to R-60 in the ceiling might save 1 million BTUs. (I made up all these numbers to illustrate the point,,,as I away say,,"Do the math!")

    Tony

    PS Other technologies have an even more impressive payoff. Air to air exhaust heat exchangers, window quilts and pop in panels etc are even cheaper and give a better bang for the buck.

    T

    PPS. This discussion assumes new or remodel construction. New windows are of course cheaper than adding more insulation to the outside walls of an existing house. On the other hand, in a typical attic space, adding blow in fibreglass is cheap, easy and very effective, as is adding a layer under the floor.

    $1000 is a bit high... I was thinking it would run more along the lines of $25-50... which isn't enough to pay for more insulation. If I had $1000 to spend, I would just add reflective insulation to the inside of the roof studs, then blow in some more insulation... OR get a solar panel. The point in doing this is that even if it doesn't have as much value, it's a cheap enough "upgrade" that I can afford to do it. Because until the economy turns around, I'm on a pretty strict home improvement budget... and I've done most of the other cheap stuff already, or already have it on my to-do list.

    For example: I've already made the switch to CFL's for all lightbulbs except the fridge, oven, and outdoor floodlights. I installed both timers and motion detectors on the floodlights so they are only energized at night, and then only when motion activated. I installed foam outlet/switch insulators on all outlets, switches, cable-hookups, and phonejacks. I installed "childproof" plug inserts to further insulate the outlets. I installed a second layer of insulation on the inside of the attached garage door (unheated space unless in use, but the walls between the house and garage are thin, so there was still a lot of heatloss through the garage). Installed R-19 batts in the attic over the garage. Installed plastic sheeting over the windows (with dead air space) (this was from one of those "window kits"). Installed two insulation blankets around the water heater (all the water pipes are already insulated, so nothing to do there). Installed water heater timer. Sprayfoam sealed and insulated all floor/siding punctures including the heat pump hoses and the cable TV runs. Replaced the back door weatherseal that was kinda drafty. Installed a programmable thermostat. In the process of sewing full curtains for all the windows. I also installed low-flow aerating faucet heads on the sinks (wife likes her high-flow shower head, otherwise I would have replaced that, too). Also replaced one of the toilet's fill valves with a water saver one that lets me divert more of the water from filling the bowl to refilling the tank (doesn't really save energy, but does save a bit on the water bill, supposedly) (that was not by choice by the way, the old valve broke, so I had to replace it with something anyway).

    On the to do list: re-routing the dryer intake to suck air out of the attic instead of the heated space the dryer sits in. Installing a couple of x-10 outlets for better power management/conservation of TV and other often idle appliances that stay plugged in and use some slight idle power. Paint the front door, ceiling, and under-floor with that insuladd paint (or other similar brand). Although I'm not convinced that it works anywhere near as well as they claim it does... at around $11-15 per gallon, it's worth it if it only added R1 to the effective insulative value (though I realize it's reflective and not a resistive insulator, so it has no real R-value). Also on the to-do list, add a second layer of fiberglass batts under the floor (there's only R19 batts there now, so there's room enough for another R19 batt, but I'll probably just add an R13 so as not to even worry about losing insulating value due to compression). After that, I'm out of cheap ideas. Of course, I realize that all in all, I have probably spent close to about half that $1000... which would have been at least enough to blow in some more attic insulation, but the way my wife budget's the money, well, it's sorta like a government administration. If I don't use the budget, I lose the budget. Once the economy turns around, then she'll be more receptive to a couple of large ticket items here and there to make big differences, but in the meantime, I'm left with what I've got now.

    PS - All those little things DO add up in savings by the way. Despite a 35% rate increase this year, our electric bill has gone down by $20 a month over last year's bills... so FAR. Of course, what I really need is a solar system, but my wife's employer is in such desperate financial shape she doesn't know from week to week if they can make payroll the following week, so that's put a freeze on all major spending for us for the time being.
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Static Vinyl

    It sounds like you are on all the right tracks. My point of $1000 was only to use (made up) comparative numbers. My point is (again) if you spend say $50 on window film (or anything else for that matter) will it yield as much savings as some other energy saving measure. $50 will buy a significant number of square feet of added attic insulation, possibly for bigger benefit.

    (Note of caution about over insulating,,,for the few that may not know,,, Insulation works due to trapped air space. Adding insulation in confined space (wall cavity for example) to the point of compressing the insulation is a net looser. For example adding one 6" R-19 batt in a wall cavity on top of another 6" batt compresses both so the net R-value is LESS then the original R-19. Same with attic spaces, you need to have an airspace above the insulation to allow for venting, which is a very inexact science).

    Tony
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Static Vinyl
    icarus wrote: »
    It sounds like you are on all the right tracks. My point of $1000 was only to use (made up) comparative numbers. My point is (again) if you spend say $50 on window film (or anything else for that matter) will it yield as much savings as some other energy saving measure. $50 will buy a significant number of square feet of added attic insulation, possibly for bigger benefit.

    (Note of caution about over insulating,,,for the few that may not know,,, Insulation works due to trapped air space. Adding insulation in confined space (wall cavity for example) to the point of compressing the insulation is a net looser. For example adding one 6" R-19 batt in a wall cavity on top of another 6" batt compresses both so the net R-value is LESS then the original R-19. Same with attic spaces, you need to have an airspace above the insulation to allow for venting, which is a very inexact science).

    Tony


    My problem there is that the attic has blown insulation, which get's compacted if you walk on it, so I couldn't add fiberglass batts on top of it without creating a bunch of cold-spots that would be much worse. So until I can afford to have a truck come out and blow in more on top of what's there, which runs about $360-400, I can't really add to the attic insulation. I have thought about adding an attic fan to cool down the attic in the summer though... I'm just a bit non-commital to the idea though. If I did that, I would want it to be one of those self-contained solar ones... and that puts that project into the major expenses catagory.
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Static Vinyl

    SgtMjr

    Your post highlights the reality that every case is different. What works (or doesn't) in your case might not work in mine. My examples are "all things being equal/possible",,,and we know that is seldom the case.

    The goal is to be as energy efficient as possible within the reasonability of cost.

    T
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Static Vinyl

    I got to thinking about it and realized that our rates didn't just increase by 35%... because they first raised them by 10% in January, then by 25% in September... that's an effective 37.5% increase because that 10% was compounded. I'm telling ya, it's highway robbery.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 31,077 admin
    Re: Static Vinyl

    Our PG&E gas rates took a wild ride this last January through November (2008 )($ per Therm, baseline rate is about 75% of a small home with family gas needs for cooking/hot water/heating):
    ($/therm ~ $1/100 Cubic Feet)
    Baseline Excess
    $1.14364 $1.36831
    $1.21106 $1.43573
    $1.24351 $1.46818
    $1.39672 $1.62789
    $1.45131 $1.68248
    $1.61666 $1.84783
    $1.91372 $2.14489
    $1.67367 $1.90484
    $1.33943 $1.57060
    $1.21151 $1.44268
    $1.06901 $1.29081


    vs Jan 2006-Dec 2007

    Baseline Excess
    $1.62261 $1.83938
    $1.24486 $1.46163
    $1.16888 $1.38565
    $1.21835 $1.44970
    $1.13575 $1.36710
    $0.94197 $1.17332
    $0.98272 $1.21407
    $1.08803 $1.31938
    $1.12040 $1.33974
    $0.93755 $1.15689
    $1.15552 $1.37486
    $1.12898 $1.34832

    $1.13309 $1.35349
    $1.12139 $1.34179
    $1.16485 $1.38525
    $1.14837 $1.37250
    $1.23781 $1.46194
    $1.37637 $1.60050
    $1.34526 $1.56934
    $1.18750 $1.41158
    $1.19043 $1.41451
    $1.24231 $1.46639
    $1.21296 $1.43704
    $1.24320 $1.46728
    Pretty volatile pricing out there...

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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