pump alternatives?

nyarelathodepnyarelathodep Solar Expert Posts: 99 ✭✭
Was wondering if those knowledgeable about pumps could point me in the right direction for a pump set up appropriate to my particular situation. Since putting my well in, I have been using a goulds (1980's) model, 2 wire 115v 1/3 hp franklin motor with an 8.9 amp rating. That's all that's known about the pump, as the model # is illegible. I know that my briggs elite 5550w (8500w surge) that was running it would bog down slightly when starting it, so I'm guessing the surge is a little over the 5k mark?

Anyway, the genny finally died (or at least won't produce current, and I'm wondering if the amp draw burnt something out in there), and I'm faced with a few options here:

1) try to find an inverter which will run the existing pump (which otherwise runs terrific, as it fils my 80 gal pressure tank in less than a minute). I can't measure the surge, so trying to price the right inverter is tough, and i would rather not have to spend 2k on an outback 3524 just to pump water.

2) look at a more efficient pump that won't set me back a ridiculous amount, and the right inverter to run that. I currently have a samlex 600w sa (1k "industrial" surge rating). I'm doubting it will handle much in the way of pumps.

I would prefer another submersible. On to the well and draw:

4 foot wide shallow dug well
Static water level is about 14' down, and only typically about a foot an a half of water (less than half a tile)
Total horizontal distance of less than a hundred feet

I don't have split phase, so it would have to remain a 115v model, and would like to use the pressure tank if possible.

Any recommendations on a suitable pump? Alternate ideas?

Comments

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 31,082 admin
    Re: pump alternatives?

    At the high cost/high quality end: The Grundfos SQ or SQE series would be interesting... But needs ~220 VAC.

    The SQFlex would run from 100 VDC to 230 VAC nicely.

    Hardly any surge--So you can use a smaller inverter. Perhaps a Magnum split phase inverter? The 230 VAC pump--lower cost inverter plus not cheap transformer to boost to 240 VAC.

    There are also three wire pumps (Franklin and others, starting capacitor at the top of the well electrical box)--Should have much lower starting surge compared to the two wire pumps. And much cheaper than the Grundfos pumps.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • peakbaggerpeakbagger Solar Expert Posts: 341 ✭✭✭
    Re: pump alternatives?

    If you buy a 3 wire submersible pump, Franklin sells a pump controller that converts it to a variable speed drive unit which does away with starting surges.
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: pump alternatives?

    how far from the house is the well, how deep is the well and how high do you have to pump the water? 24V system?
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • nyarelathodepnyarelathodep Solar Expert Posts: 99 ✭✭
    Re: pump alternatives?

    24v system, yes.
    4 foot wide shallow dug well
    Static water level is about 14' down, and only typically about a foot an a half of water (less than half a tile)
    Total horizontal distance of less than a hundred feet

    Now, delving into the pump world, I've read many things concerning the control boxes for three wire pumps, and I've gathered that they don't do well in really cold environs, which is the case here 4-5 months out of the year. I'm not sure if it's viable, but then again I'm pretty unknowledgable about this sorry of thing. I'm to understand that pumps that have permanent split capacitor motors are the best for starting surges in 2 wire models. If the three wire with a control box for a 115v is indeed viable, perhaps the samlex 600w sa might be doable, or the step up to like maybe 1000w model of the same?

    I will check out the sqflex, thank you bill. ..i had not come across that one in my delvings..
  • jonrjonr Solar Expert Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: pump alternatives?

    Some of the 1/2 HP Grundfos SQ models are 115V.

    I am available for custom hardware/firmware development

  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: pump alternatives?

    OK Icarus has a system he designed and assembled using a 24V submersible pump with auto-drain-after-powered-down fixtures at low spots..He is on an island that sees 4 feet of ice and -30C most of the winter.. It has been mentioned on the forum several times.. Try sending him a PM.
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • nyarelathodepnyarelathodep Solar Expert Posts: 99 ✭✭
    Re: pump alternatives?

    ".He is on an island that sees 4 feet of ice and -30C most of the winter.."

    Jesus Christ...I thought I had it bad over here, lol. I'm figuring if the whole system costs 2kish, I might just pursue getting a gravity well as I have a ridge littered with springs about 40 feet above me and 150 feet out. The installation would be around 3kish... starting to look mighty attractive. At least that would eliminate alot of logistical headaches.
  • solarixsolarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
    Re: pump alternatives?

    Your well is about as easy as it gets and I say keep your 1/3 hp pump. 9 amps seems high for a 1/3 hp pump (which at 750 watts per hp should be more like 2 amps ideally - but 4 or 5 amps is probably more realistic). This is way below your generator rating and it is normal for the generator to "bog down" a little as it readjusts to the load. Even a relatively small inverter should be able to handle this pump. I'd say 2000W would be appropriate.
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,040 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: pump alternatives?

    couple things
    3 wire pump motors and control boxes. No problems with my control box last year at 10F Pipe and filters froze up, but control box worked

    Starting surge. Rotary (conventional) generators are much better at starting surge loads, than inverter generators are, the engine may bog for a second, but will keep going (unless the breaker trips) Inverter gensets have little surge capacity, fine at 2000w, but 2045w and the inverter maxes out.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: pump alternatives?
    solarix wrote: »
    9 amps seems high for a 1/3 hp pump (which at 750 watts per hp should be more like 2 amps ideally - but 4 or 5 amps is probably more realistic). .

    Thing is, these motors are rated for shaft output HP, not the power they consume. That said, my 1/2 HP sub pump (which is in position from when I was on grid, and with the flip of a switch can take over in case the piston pump were to fail) is rated 6 amps @ 220 volts. Same 1/2 HP pump with Franklin 115 volt motor was rated 12 amps.
    And yes, as others have stated, the 3 wire motors with external capacitor start control box, are much easier to start. As for starting in very cold weather, if the capacitor gets cold enough it's MFD value drops off. In the case of the OP, he's only 100 feet from the well. Run the motor wires to the house and mount the control box in the house where the temp stays above freezing. That's how it's done in these parts of the world. I've seen a 115 volt Franklin Cap start used that way with the well about 450 feet from the house, using #12 wire. I definitely wouldn't suggest that at all with a 115 volt motor, but the retailer wanted to sell the 115 volt pump he had in stock. Did so and got away with it. 100 feet is nothing to worry about if using #12 wire. When we had the cottage I ran a 115 volt 1/2 hp Franklin powered by a 1500 watt MSW. The pump was almost 200 feet out in the lake to get away from shoreline silt during storms. Worked great, but I wouldn't recommend MSW, it's all I had, tried it and it worked. And no, a 600 watt inverter won't start these pumps. You'll need at least 1500 watts, but even then, every model inverter is different in surge capabilities. I had one that would start the pump, many others won't.
  • animattanimatt Solar Expert Posts: 295 ✭✭✭
    Re: pump alternatives?
    I might just pursue getting a gravity well as I have a ridge littered with springs about 40 feet above me and 150 feet out.

    Not sure if a ram pump could be setup to charge existing pressure tank. Pump is definately easy to build but I have not seen it used to charge pressure tank but to lift water in gravity feed tanks.

    With about 40' drop you should be able to get roughly 15 psi with out any pump. Obviously any elevation in the house would lose or gain accordingly. But at 15psi input of ramp pump I would think you could get 40psi easily. Does depend on your spring flow rate. Worth some investigation to eliminate electrical demands. I am not sure what spring does in cold weather.

    matthew
  • nyarelathodepnyarelathodep Solar Expert Posts: 99 ✭✭
    Re: pump alternatives?

    they are definitly correct about the rough starting surges. .. I've tried my yamaha 2000is and it will almost immediately fault trying to start the pump. Thanks for the info for the control boxes though... I'm thinking some 115v 3 wire with a Control box would be the best and most cost effective option here. Aside from that, a pure gravity well running direct into the house would probably be the best of all worlds... they are fairly common around these parts in older homes.

    I have a nice ram pump, btw... but in the case of taping into the ridge, the gravity well makes more sense for constant pressure, plus i could avoid the frozen pipes i have to deal with almost every day here as it stands.
  • hemmjohemmjo Solar Expert Posts: 90 ✭✭
    Re: pump alternatives?
    (which otherwise runs terrific, as it fils my 80 gal pressure tank in less than a minute).

    This might not be a good thing. If your pump is running less than a minute to fill an 80 gallon pressure tank, something is wrong. You either have a water logged pressure tank or the pump is way too big for the system. Is it a captive air tank? or air over water? Have you checked the draw down? How much water can you pull out of the tank when it is "full" until the pump starts again? What is the system presssure 20-40, 30-50, 40-60 psi?

    John
    Two systems in the Dominican Republic  http://villagemountainmission.org/
    installed Feb 2014 at 19.796189° -70.893594°, Classic 150 + WBJR, KISAE SW1210, MN Battery Monitor, IOTA DLS 55/IQ4,  4- Solar World 275w, 4-6v x 225ah Trace Batteries
    installed Feb 2015 at 19.795733° -70.893372°, same components  as above
    Honda PowerMate PC0497000, 7000/8750w generator - powers the well and chargers maybe once a week






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