Trace SW4024 circuit diagrams

jperry

Hi to all on the NWAS forum,

I have just aquired two Trace SW4024 with issues. I have electronic experience but it is difficult to fault find with out schematics.
Any one have any? I am looking for one for each of the 4 circuit boards. Any other relative fault finding information for these inverters would be very help full.
When I apply DC to one unit it shows a "AC source applies to output" error, the ac lights blink and the fans are running at full throttle.
The other unit shows no display or lights but the fans also run at full throttle.

Any clues?

thanks
Jim

Vic

Re: Trace SW4024 circuit diagrams

Jim,

As you know, these inverters are about 13- 15, or more years old, probably with an unknown past. Many parts are hard to find, many others not available.

Relays do stick/weld on some of these. Some may have been hit by lightning. Many are old, tired and want to go to the cemetery. Schematics were controlled, and most of the repairs were board swaps, with Depot board repair, IIRC. FWIW,
Good Luck, Vic

jperry

Re: Trace SW4024 circuit diagrams

Thanks for the reply Vic.

Old units, yes. But actually not that old.
I found a beautiful circuit diagram of the Power Control Board right here on this forum, so I am hoping there are more out there.
These units are so well made, all here in the USA (I think). Although a surge arrester would have been a good addition.

Anyone out there got some schematics?

btw Vic, love the setup, I hope to get a nice diesel genset one day......

cheers
Jim

Vic

Re: Trace SW4024 circuit diagrams

Hi Jim,

YES, there have been some schematics posted here for the SW line of inverters. One member, RCinFLA knows a lot about these inverters, and may have posted a schematic or two. But this member is not very active here in the past many months, verses before.

Also, boB, did EE work at Trace/Xantrex (co-Founder of Outback, and MidNite), knows a lot about the guts of these inverters, and has Posted about the SWs, seems very, very busy designing a MN Inverter (it seems) ... and all of the time, our inverters get older and older -- my SW+es have been in service for about ten years. Some day, one or more of them will die. Then I will be faced with just what to do ... kind of a daunting thought, right now.

Good Luck. The schematics are out there, floating around, and there are those that can repair the SWs, but these inverters are HEAVY, as you know, and shipping costs have become so high, that sending the whole inverter in for service may have become so high that it may not make sense. No news here.

I have been very happy with the performance of the SW+es -- very solid workhorses, running 24/7 for 9.5 years ... knock, knock. Vic

jperry

Re: Trace SW4024 circuit diagrams

Thanks Vic.
I hope your inverters serve you well and long.
Maybe someone will respond to this thread with a complete set of schematics......
best
Jim

carkifelek

Re: Trace SW4024 circuit diagrams

jim, it might be very difficult to find anymore schematics actually. But you can draw your own schematics by a bit of reverse engineering on the part of the circuit you want to debug. I understand that if the connections are broken inside or outside the PCB it becomes extremely difficult to reverse engineer but we have to use our knowledge and understanding of electrical circuits and components to work out the issues.

boB

Re: Trace SW4024 circuit diagrams

If the fan is running on the one inverter, at least part of its aux power supply is working which is good.
On that control board, check the +5V on the logic chips. If there is +5V, then there may be some hope.

There are actually 3 inverters in series for the SW4048. Big, medium and small. The large one has
a waveform like a modified square wave inverter. The medium and small ones have higher frequency
waveforms to make up a close-to sine wave stepped waveform. All 3 sections may be working
or not. A relay may be stuck on or not. There is also a small fuse on the main power board.
It's a little round looking thing that was put there to satisfy UL or ETL. If that is open, the power
board won't run.
The other thing that sometimes breaks is one of the voltage sense or current sense transformers
where the fine hair wire (40 AWG ?) connects to the pins on the bobbins.

Of course, FETs can short but maybe yours are OK ?
Somewhere on this forum there are some partial schematics and some waveforms of the complete
output sine wave with individual waveforms of the 3 inverter sections.

There are 3 microprocessors. PIC 16C57 and a couple of ROM chips. One micro for the LCD display,
one for overall control like charging parameters, and another one that pulls table values from its
ROM to make the waveforms.

Good luck.

boB

Ralph Day

Re: Trace SW4024 circuit diagrams

Perhaps boB could give me a clue about what's going on here. My SW4048 had a little heart attack. I'd been using a little impact gun to drive some self drilliing self tapping secrews into the 4x4 power board the inverter is mounted on. A ffew seconds later, lights out. No leds on, still "on" position (control panel), but dead. After cycling the inverter through to "on" again everything was fine.

Maybe a loose board? Siticky relay? Give it a thump now and then? It's 10 years old and just hoping it hangs on until the Midnite Solar 4kw split phase inverters are available....:-)

Ralph

RCinFLA

Check to see if the main relay contacts are welded stuck together. To the inverter it is the same as connecting AC source to AC_Out.

CDN_VT

Ralph Day wrote: »

Re: Trace SW4024 circuit diagrams

Perhaps boB could give me a clue about what's going on here. My SW4048 had a little heart attack. I'd been using a little impact gun to drive some self drilliing self tapping secrews into the 4x4 power board the inverter is mounted on. A ffew seconds later, lights out. No leds on, still "on" position (control panel), but dead. After cycling the inverter through to "on" again everything was fine.

Maybe a loose board? Siticky relay? Give it a thump now and then? It's 10 years old and just hoping it hangs on until the Midnite Solar 4kw split phase inverters are available....:-)

Ralph

So how are the SW4024 circuit diagrams going ,

Sorry about the font , but I don’t want to waste anymore time on the forum software,
I have chatted with the TRACE warranty “Dude “ and will meet him next month , I just came back from Arlington , saw the Midnight crew & the outback bunch etc last weeks .
http://midnitesolar.com
This is not a fancy forum , BUT it WORKS ..

VT
I see search is now toast on this forum , 2012 is the oldest it can pull .
advancement to the cave Vbull strikes again , glade we punted them before this happened to us.
OP Sir , I will be meeting with the Trace warranty tech next month , I'll see what i can come up with , Robin & Bob have steered me the correct way .

littleharbor2

Not meaning to hijack the topic I did notice this is a pretty fresh conversation an I have a related question. I have a trace SW 4024 that I just put into service. It was tucked in the back of a warehouse since its purchase 14 years ago. I was lucky enough to purchase it from the original owner. I installed it 4 months ago and was the one to open the factory sealed box. Is this inverter "new" from an electrical standpoint? Does any of the internal circuitry degrade to any degree with age? It would be nice to know it should give me a decade or more of dependable service.

Vic

Hi little..,

Generally, there is a large Capacitor bank on the DC input of these inverters, it is possible that these caps might have gone bad, or, perhaps might need to be "reformed".

The capacitance total for this bank on an SW+ 5548, was about 75,000 uF. You might want to place a resistor in the positive battery lead for this inverter, and connect a 24 volt to the other end of that resistor, and the battery negative to the inverter neg battery input.

Perhaps using a resistor value of perhaps several hundred Ohms with a power rating of 5-ish watts might do OK. Watch the inverter positive side of the resistor with your DMM, set to a scale that can read 24 volts or more. You should be able to watch the voltage rise, relatively slowly. It should reach battery voltage, over a period of time.

On a 4 KW 24 V inverter, that Cap bank may well exceed 100,000 uF. Just some guesses, Good Luck, Vic

littleharbor2

Vic, I guess I forgot to mention, It is working beautifully and never gave me a problem. I have a solar engineering friend who mentioned to me something about some internal components that lose their oxides with time and non use. He suggested to connect a 12 volt source to the inverter and let it sit for 10 minutes or so to allow these oxides to build up again before hitting it with full 24 volt power. The readout actually comes to life with 12 volts. Anyway it is now working like a champ and I am hoping to get 10 or more years out of it.
Thank you for taking time to address my question.

Vic

Hi littleharbor2,

OK, great that the Trace inverter came up well. Capacitors are often a bit of a weak part, compared to most other electronic parts. But, in the past few decades, capacitors have, generally, gotten much better. And, seems that Trace and Xantrex did not buy cheap parts.

The Trace SW & SW+ inverters were built exceedingly well -- well Engineered, and produced with tight Quality Control. Most of the inverters used in this general area are Trace, most of them 15 to perhaps 20 years old. Very solid performers.

Good Luck. Vic

RonG

Has anyone experienced a problem with the Trace SW4024 float voltage fluctuating rapidly (0.5 volts per second or so) from it's set point?  Doesn't happen during bulk charge only when the charge current is low.  Battery spec says should hold within 0.1 volt.  Any ideas for a fix?

RdeC

I have a Trace S3024E and need to replace the power transformer. Appreciate any leads on where to buy one

BB.

Good Luck RdeC!

Here are some folks that have (in the past) been involved with repairing older inverters--Perhaps one of them can help you source the transformer.

http://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/comment/241766/#Comment_241766

Of course, there is always the question of replacing vs repairing. Electronics past ~10 years old can have many different failure modes--And the problem to obtain replacement parts (even "simple things" like older IC's) can be a nightmare too. Let alone and customer parts. Many mfg. will not even attempt to maintain products over ~5 years old because of how quickly the electronics business is changing.

-Bill

Dave Angelini

The 3024E is going to be very hard to find a transformer in North America as it was never sold here. Maybe Australia or countries that do not use split phase as we do here. 

BB.

RdeC might be out of Chile... Good catch Dave.

-Bill

Dave Angelini

No problemo !   I do know a few places in Aussie land that scavenge the oldies if the OP wants>

RdeC

RdeC is out Chile the 3024E operated fine in a marine environment off the grid until the transformer winding went to ground. The windings are flat wire... hard to get here and the rewind with round wire did lot last. Thanks for your comments. 

Dave Angelini

Wow rewinding a transformer, reminds me of the old days.  The only thing I rewind now is U-tube videos...

Vic

Is the wire really flat,  like tape,  or more square?

Rectangular is quite common in transformers.   Do you know of any transformer rewinders in your area?

The wire is probably not damaged,  but redoing the insulation and getting all of the original wire back on the core would probably not work out so well.

Good Luck,  Vic

boB

What is wrong with the transformer and which one is it ?  There are three (3) transformers in an SW inverter plus a small flyback transformer for the auxiliary power  supply on the control PCB.  Is one of the larger  transformers brown and crusty ?  Burnt ?  Shorted ?  Any idea  on that ?

Dave Angelini

I assume the big one as he said
"I have a Trace S3024E and need to replace the power transformer.  RdeC is out Chile the 3024E operated fine in a marine environment off the grid until the transformer winding went to ground. The windings are flat wire... hard to get here and the rewind with round wire did lot last.  "
 220V 50Hz. Hard to get here to......

CDN_VT

Well I copied this tread & forwarded it on to the Gent who Robin pasted me on to , The Warranty repair dude .
He does not see any problems of doing repairs , SINCE he has done 3 for me .
I don't use this e-mail much or come here ,, So best I can do is PM me your e-mail AND STORY PLUS  & i'll pass it on . If I hear about I'm passing on waste's of time , I'll stop . I was asked this !!

VT
This cost's , repair , not me helping . But I do know the amount of wasted time i have seen here ,.

Dave Angelini

We all waste time until it is near the end.  As someone who has shipped to Chile and been there, I would say if the OP comes back here, he should buy something down there and not have to deal with customs and shipping companies on obsolete equipment. If the transformer corroded, what is next....

Slowtation

I have no idea if this is the right place for this question, so I may need a little help. I just got a xantrex sw4024 (my second one) and with thru the start up test as decribed in the manual. Just the battery hooked up nothing else. Power on, relay clicks then AC1 good and AC2 good light start flashing together. Any ideas here??

Dave Angelini

You really should just start a new thread but for now, is this Schneider Conext SW or a Xantrex SW?
You need to give alot of info about this. The more you describe the faster it will be
Is is offgrid, Is it a new unit, does the inverter output AC, what is your battery and voltage, what is your problem more specifically?

BB.

Go ahead and continue in this thread--For some reason the software is not letting me split the thread to its own location.

But, feel free to start a new thread if this gets complicated. In general, everyone is invited to create new threads for their discussions. Helps keeps things from getting confusing with multiple questions and answers getting confused about who is replying to whom.

-Bill

Slowtation

This is a used new to me Xantrex  SW4024 series ii built in 2005 to be on the grid with a GTI for a grid tie system. The GTI is currently not involved, battery voltage is 26.5VDC and SW4024 is not hooked up to anything else, no AC, just testing before I do the rest of the wiring per the manual. The panel works just fine, values can be changed and they stay. I tried out the inverter function only using a 1 amp load, seems to work fine.  There are no errors (red Lights ) and none recorded. When powered up, the relay clicks on the AC board then the "AC1 in good" and "AC2 in good" start flashing together no other lights. Does the same when inverting just the inverter light and line tie lights turn on. Thanks for your help ahead of time.