Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

shockman

Need someone to diagnose my charging issues. The manual indicates that 110amps charging ability. Dip switches allow adjustment and are set at 90amps. With batteries indicating 11.6 amps under load and sg at 1.200, all I can find with clamp meter on main line between bat. and inv. is 45-50 amps?? Generator is Honda powered Tsurumi 6500 that I inherited with house?
I'm wondering if charger can be old and tired? are batts charged enough to lower input current? manual claims charger will deliver full rate until set voltage, which does not happen. Had same problem last winter when clouds and valley inversions happen and was considering Iota charger but am thinking that a new inverter/charger may be better money spent?? My fear is upgrading inverter to find charging not as smart as solar controller?? That generater sucks a lot of fuel and I'm not getting a lot of charge. Recommendations!!
Marc

Cariboocoot

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

You are correct that investing in keeping the old Trace going is not money well spent. It's at the end of its useful life and it will just be another problem waiting to happen even if you have a work-around for the charger.

As for that charger, you need to check and see if adding additional DC load at the battery will increase output at any given time. If the batteries won't draw full current it could be that the batteries are bad; adding additional load will show if the charger is capable of putting out more current than what they take. If it won't, then possibly a rectifier or some other component has died in the charger.

You have two parallel battery strings so you could also disconnect one at a time and see how that changes the current output of the charger. If the batteries are 'stuck' at 1.200 SG for any significant length of time they will suffer, so it's best to figure this out quickly or even put an automotive charger on them and boost them up before you get into a situation where you have to buy batteries and a new inverter.

A good inverter-charger will work almost as well as solar for charging. The profile is slightly different, because an AC based charger starts out at full current potential while solar ramps up as the sunlight increases. This has an effect on charge acceptance causing the solar to work better than AC charging. But they're good enough for days when the sun doesn't co-operate.

shockman

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

Batteries are only about 18mth's old, hope they are fine!! never have been overly abused except a few mth's this time last year where they may not have been brought up to snuff, but probably never sat very long below 50% sc. I will check sg now and run gen. and plug in coffee maker and let momma run vac and see if amps in from charger increase?? if that is what u mean by adding DC load??

Photowhit

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

Is there a 12 volt output on your generator?

How old are the batteries, might well do what ever you can to charge as 'Coot suggested. sitting at 50% or below for any time will create problems.

Also how cold are the batteries? Charging is an electrochemical function and chemical reactions happen slower at cold temperatures, The act of charging will warm the batteries, you might see if an hour into charging what the current is...

If the batteries are nearly new, I'd keep pushing some current into them! even with expensive gas...

Cariboocoot

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

shockman wrote: »

Batteries are only about 18mth's old, hope they are fine!! never have been overly abused except a few mth's this time last year where they may not have been brought up to snuff, but probably never sat very long below 50% sc. I will check sg now and run gen. and plug in coffee maker and let momma run vac and see if amps in from charger increase?? if that is what u mean by adding DC load??

Okay first problem: they should never be below 50% SOC. It's bad enough if they spend time below 75% SOC without being brought back up above that level the next day.

As for adding loads, turning on AC loads will not do it as when the inverter is in charge mode all AC loads are just passed through to the generator. Thus no increase in demand on the charger. You need a load that pulls directly from the batteries. If you have a spare 12 Volt inverter around you could hook that up and run an AC load with it to see if that causes the Trace to output more during charge. Otherwise you need to rig up some hefty resistance load on the batteries such as jump-starting a car.

shockman

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

According to classic rbt batts are 11C

shockman

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

Ya! thats what I figured, have gen going and 50 amps from charger, was about to turn toaster and coffee maker on but realized power would bypass inv. from gen. at least I figured that much out :>)))
will see if I can figure out a load off batts

shockman

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

any ideas?? cant get truck close to batts LOL, do have 12v cig lighter socks in house just cant think of anything that would draw enough current?

shockman

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

at the batts, with vm volts went quickly from 12.2 before charge to 13.3 and amps fell from 50 to 41. does that tell us anything?

BB.

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

Depending on the charger's settings--You want to see the batteries getting maximum available current until they reach around 14.5 volts (bulk phase of charging)... Then hold that voltage for 2-6 hours (the more discharged the battery bank, the longer the absorb time).

If your cables from the charger's DC I/O to the battery bank are too small of gauge/too long (or are loose/corroded), you can have excessive voltage drop in the wiring. Check the voltage at the inverter's terminals, and at the battery terminals).

Are these flooded cell batteries? Do you have a good quality glass hydrometer or one of these from Midnite?

http://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=505&productCatName=Battery%20Accessories&productCat_ID=39&sortOrder=1&act=p

Attachment not found.

-Bill

shockman

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

I have that exact hydro volt, cables are (i forget #) but largest welding cable, about 5 feet between batts and inv.

Cariboocoot

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

shockman wrote: »

at the batts, with vm volts went quickly from 12.2 before charge to 13.3 and amps fell from 50 to 41. does that tell us anything?

Not really. Batteries lightly discharged will raise in Voltage quickly. So will ruined ones.
Voltage ought to be going up to over 14 for Absorb stage.
If your batteries are 380 Amp hours each then the bank is 760 so 41 Amps would be 5% rate and 50 Amps would be 6.5% - this is either charged batteries (which SG of 1.200 says isn't the case), defective batteries (which may have happened if V and A from the charger aren't high enough and you've been depending on it for some time), or the charger is defective which is what you need to check out.

90 Amps @ 12 Volts would be over 1kW so the generator certainly should handle that.
You need to get like 500 Watts of additional load on those batteries just to see if the charger current will go up. That would be some pretty low resistance (like 0.3 Ohms); an awful lot of 12 Volt light bulbs.

shockman

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

how about my jumper cables, a coat hanger, a piece of steel and some welding off the batts just kidding :>))
I really do suspect the charger as I have never seen it put out more than 50amps. I will let gen run all day and see what happens to SG, however from past experience it seems to drop amperage as voltage comes up (normal) but SG is slow to follow?
On that note, a few questions on a new inverter. If I have properly dealt with line losses of 12v system and feel no need to expand system, is there any need to switch to 24v? Does my storage or charge rate change? I run mostly lights and laptop, ceiling fan when arriving to cold cabin in winter for couple of hours and a small freezer 24/7 365 that is at outside temps. Have no problems floating daily in summer. Are these draws all the same at 24v ?? other than the math
OH! also have a small windmill 12V that gives me 10-12A when windy here (quite regular at this time of year) that would be useless if switching to 24v

Cariboocoot

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

If you switch from 12 Volt to 24 there will be a small increase in system efficiency. Otherwise the Watts and Watt hours remain the same, just a change in the V*A ratio by a factor of 2.

Yes, your wind turbine would be useless. Or "even more useless".

shockman

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

Cariboocoot wrote: »

If you switch from 12 Volt to 24 there will be a small increase in system efficiency. Otherwise the Watts and Watt hours remain the same, just a change in the V*A ratio by a factor of 2.

Yes, your wind turbine would be useless. Or "even more useless".

Why did I know the wind comment was coming LOL, I will assume the small efficiency gain would not offset the small wind gain ??
So any recommendations on brand of inv/charger?? because I will probably act on this soon
Marc

Cariboocoot

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

Before you act on it at least try charging only half the battery bank at a time. If you can't bring the batteries up you're going to be buying new ones. If the inverter-charger is actually working, it doesn't need to be replaced yet.

Probably the best direct replacement for that Trace 2012 is an Outback FX2012T http://www.solar-electric.com/inverters-controllers-accessories/inverters/ouin/oupooffgrand/outback-power-pure-sinewave-inverter-fx2012t.html Warning: they are not cheap and you will need a MATE I or MATE II to program it. We are talking major investment here.

Alternately have a look and see of you can find a Xantrex Prosine. Basically that is what replaced your Trace and there may be a good used one out there for you.

Photowhit

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Alternately have a look and see of you can find a Xantrex Prosine. Basically that is what replaced your Trace and there may be a good used one out there for you.

I'm not sure if that is the case, I think the Trace naming structure went to Xantrex (trXXX?), While the Prosine has been stand alone... in either case. Prosines come in 2 versions, the 1000 and 1800 watt are inverter only and 2000, 2500 and 3000 I think are all inverter chargers(I think...lol)

Cariboocoot

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

Photowhit wrote: »

I'm not sure if that is the case, I think the Trace naming structure went to Xantrex (trXXX?), While the Prosine has been stand alone... in either case. Prosines come in 2 versions, the 1000 and 1800 watt are inverter only and 2000, 2500 and 3000 I think are all inverter chargers(I think...lol)

Oddly enough I too have difficulty remembering the names and exact specifications of every inverter made in the past 20 years. We must be getting old or something.

shockman

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

so now after 51/2 hrs batts at 14.75v, 14.5 on classic (temp corrected ??) 14-15 amps going in, SG 1.225-1.230. Still a ways to go on SG should amperage be that low?? Will wait another 4hrs or so and see if SG comes up. If not will have to try half the bank tomorrow. Batteries are gurgling

Cariboocoot

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

shockman wrote: »

so now after 51/2 hrs batts at 14.75v, 14.5 on classic (temp corrected ??) 14-15 amps going in, SG 1.225-1.230. Still a ways to go on SG should amperage be that low?? Will wait another 4hrs or so and see if SG comes up. If not will have to try half the bank tomorrow. Batteries are gurgling

Once you hit Absorb Voltage the current will be only what is needed to maintain that Voltage.
The size of your battery bank does make this a suspiciously low number however.

shockman

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Once you hit Absorb Voltage the current will be only what is needed to maintain that Voltage.
The size of your battery bank does make this a suspiciously low number however.

Thats always been my concern, the solar charger will maintain much higher current much longer as far as me comparing to SG, I'm wondering if this old charger is fooled by voltage if that makes any sense I did try using a digital car charger that would put out 35ish amps but also backed right off current as soon as voltage began to rise?

Cariboocoot

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

shockman wrote: »

Thats always been my concern, the solar charger will maintain much higher current much longer as far as me comparing to SG, I'm wondering if this old charger is fooled by voltage if that makes any sense I did try using a digital car charger that would put out 35ish amps but also backed right off current as soon as voltage began to rise?

No, that is normal.
Absorb stage is Voltage regulated.
Car chargers are entirely Voltage regulated.

The trouble is that a bad battery will come up in Voltage very quickly because it is depleted in capacity.

This is one of those case-your-own-tail situations where the charger can not work properly causing the batteries to suffer which results in the charger putting out less and ... You end up replacing both.

If you can't get the SG all the way up with the normal charging you could try a corrective EQ charge at a higher than normal (Absorb) Voltage. If pushing the Voltage up doesn't help, they're toast.

westbranch

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

After todays healthy charge, if you can, let the batteries sit for 3 hrs or so and watch for the resting voltage (RV). That is another significant number to note. If it is higher than what RV is normally it is a positive sign.. watch the rate of V drop too this evening, is it as fast as before?

hth

shockman

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

So, last night after 12hrs of charging I had 15v at batt terminals, bat temp had risen from 11c to 17c according to classic, SG was 1.255, amps in were still hovering around 14ish. A month or so ago with good sun by the time float hit I had no problem getting them to 1.265. All cels are within .005 SG.
So maybe all is good and I'm just impatient?? That 12hrs was probably about $30 worth of gas in my pig generator.

Cariboocoot

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

Good is it will recharge from the generator as fast or faster than the solar. 12 hours of charging is unacceptably long unless the batteries were seriously depleted for some reason or possibly chronically undercharged.

This brings up your 980 Watt array. That should manage about 62 Amps, which is a bit low for recharging 760 Amp hours @ 12 Volts on its own. How has the SG managed from solar-only charging?

shockman

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

Coot, I also have another 250watts on a seperate pmw controller, however that controller shuts down at something like 13.7V, which is no biggy as classic takes over from there. SG of 1.265 is no problem on solar in summer months. Last year and this year it is these present months that give me grief. So if I was to upgrade to new inverter, the Outback is one I can buy locally at a very competitive price so wondering if a EU3000 honda would power the charger??
Marc

Cariboocoot

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

Well yes a Honda EU3000 would power it. So would a smaller one: the nice thing about an Outback is you can set both the max gen input and the max charge rate, and it ramps up from zero charge Amps (giving priority to loads). Some others hit the gen with their full charge demand, then adjust down. This can be very hard when you're trying to use a small generator.

That EU3000 is rated for 2800 Watts continuous or 23 Amps @ 120 VAC. The OB 2012 has an 80 Amp charger which is about 960 Watts. Even allowing for power factor and loads it should be no problem to run from the generator. Keep in mind the AC IN should be wired for a 20 Amp circuit at least (i.e. 12 AWG).

LeighC

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

Hi all - We have the same Trace inverter here in Australia & we found the peak volts of the AC generators we were using were not high enough under load so the charging section would not put out full current. We took the Trace to the mains grid & it charged at full power OK - Hope this helps - Leigh

shockman

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

interestingly, my manual has an asterix for 110 & 120 amp charger settings that says "requires at least 164 peak AC volts input" ?? what mean this?? has to be wired at 240V ??
gen has 120/240 plug, but wouldn't have a clue how to wire to inverter?? prey tell!

Cariboocoot

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

shockman wrote: »

interestingly, my manual has an asterix for 110 & 120 amp charger settings that says "requires at least 164 peak AC volts input" ?? what mean this?? has to be wired at 240V ??
gen has 120/240 plug, but wouldn't have a clue how to wire to inverter?? prey tell!

Peak AC: top of the waveform. 110/120 Volts is RMS. As LeighC said some generators won't hit that 164 Volt peak because they're not very good or they may sag under load and this will cause the inverter to drop the source.

Not enough details on the wiring for me to help much there. Usually the AC IN on an inverter has three wires for 120 VAC: hot, neutral, and ground. A generator will have either a 120 VAC outlet or a 240 VAC outlet, the main difference being an additional hot for the 240 VAC. You need to sort out which connection is which on both units and wire accordingly.

shockman

Re: Old Trace 2012 inverter/charger ??'s

is now wired as normal, 3 wires, but wondering if gen. has anything to do with me only getting 50a max from charger? pretty sure connection on inverter will only accommodate 110