I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For Me
niel
Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
hi all from your former moderator,
i find myself with a 2nd failing magnum inverter in about as many years. it is an mms 1012 with the digital remote on a midnite epanel. my 1st one faulted with a permanent fault after about a year and magnum replaced it with a refurbished mms 1012 inverter rather than a new one. now 2 years later this one is faulting briefly when loads are put to it. it isn't pulling the voltage low and the batteries are good with a full charge with all connections and wires good. it will show the fault on the remote and i can hear it load down on the batteries and then clears after a second or 2. magnum's answer was they break and i can send it in for repairs at my cost as they only offered to warrant that refurbished for a few months. seems unfair doesn't it? the inverter model, if not the whole company line, may be too much of a risk to me to send it in or get another magnum inverter.
i do use it as a backups to my refrig and a few other key circuits in case of an outage with a periodic pulling of the breaker from the mains to test and simulate an outage to cycle it and verify functionality. it was on a test it first reared a problem and has reappeared in later tests periodically. this will fail completely pretty soon i fear and i need another inverter. it can be 24v or 48v, but i prefer not the 12v as i had to parallel 4 104ah agm batteries due to the 12v configuration. the inverter has to kick in for outages and a built in ac charger would be nice too even though i can use solar. ac is more reliable during winter to give a quick recharge after an outage. the other thing is it must have separate neutral and ground leads or i can't have the circuit connected to the main breaker panel.
now i don't usually need the full power of the inverter at 1000kva as that would rarely occur as simultaneous start ups of my refrig and boiler pump surges plus a few lights and about 100w max in security loads. once in awhile the tv and/or pc will be on it too and it has always functioned well with the loads i have even all turning on after being off. most current seen loaded was about 36a at 12vdc if i remember rightly with my present loads i listed.
i need options and $ is a factor too. the outback is good and reliable, but with the inverter plus mate and such it will go to around $2000. the present inverter with its remote is about $1300 total just to reference. this is something i will no doubt have to save for, but in the meantime i have to figure what i may be saving for with the help from you guys. options here?
thanks guys.
ps i don't sit here on the forum as much as i used to so be patient with my attendance.
i find myself with a 2nd failing magnum inverter in about as many years. it is an mms 1012 with the digital remote on a midnite epanel. my 1st one faulted with a permanent fault after about a year and magnum replaced it with a refurbished mms 1012 inverter rather than a new one. now 2 years later this one is faulting briefly when loads are put to it. it isn't pulling the voltage low and the batteries are good with a full charge with all connections and wires good. it will show the fault on the remote and i can hear it load down on the batteries and then clears after a second or 2. magnum's answer was they break and i can send it in for repairs at my cost as they only offered to warrant that refurbished for a few months. seems unfair doesn't it? the inverter model, if not the whole company line, may be too much of a risk to me to send it in or get another magnum inverter.
i do use it as a backups to my refrig and a few other key circuits in case of an outage with a periodic pulling of the breaker from the mains to test and simulate an outage to cycle it and verify functionality. it was on a test it first reared a problem and has reappeared in later tests periodically. this will fail completely pretty soon i fear and i need another inverter. it can be 24v or 48v, but i prefer not the 12v as i had to parallel 4 104ah agm batteries due to the 12v configuration. the inverter has to kick in for outages and a built in ac charger would be nice too even though i can use solar. ac is more reliable during winter to give a quick recharge after an outage. the other thing is it must have separate neutral and ground leads or i can't have the circuit connected to the main breaker panel.
now i don't usually need the full power of the inverter at 1000kva as that would rarely occur as simultaneous start ups of my refrig and boiler pump surges plus a few lights and about 100w max in security loads. once in awhile the tv and/or pc will be on it too and it has always functioned well with the loads i have even all turning on after being off. most current seen loaded was about 36a at 12vdc if i remember rightly with my present loads i listed.
i need options and $ is a factor too. the outback is good and reliable, but with the inverter plus mate and such it will go to around $2000. the present inverter with its remote is about $1300 total just to reference. this is something i will no doubt have to save for, but in the meantime i have to figure what i may be saving for with the help from you guys. options here?
thanks guys.
ps i don't sit here on the forum as much as i used to so be patient with my attendance.
Comments
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Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For Me
Hi Neil, sorry about your issues. How about a Outback GFX 1424 @ about $1,000 and a Mate for about $200. Has all the bells and whistles 1,400 Watts. If you want 48V then the GFX 1548. You get generator support as a plus feature. -
Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For Me
that sounds interesting and plausible. i'd be getting a bit more in power capabilities. i may have to look those up to view specs. -
Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For Me
I have a GFX 1312, it's 12v but I really like it. It runs beside a Xanterx SW that I just keep waiting on to check out and replace it with another Outback and run them in parallel.that sounds interesting and plausible. i'd be getting a bit more in power capabilities. i may have to look those up to view specs. -
Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For Me
Last Winter I picked up a used 7 year old Xantrex PROsine 1000W, 12V Inverter and love it! It's been on 24/7 ever since. New, it's roughly half the price of the 1800 watt model, but inside and outside, they are almost identical, only a few parts missing off the board results in the 1000 watt unit.
Was surprised when reading up on them, to find they are among the few inverters approved for use in medical life flights. Quality and reliability. -
Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For Me
wayne,
does the prosine have separate neutral and ground? trouble is no charger or auto switch of grid ac circuit or am i wrong on that account? -
Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For Me
blackcherry,
would the mounting holes on yours be the same as the holes for the other outbacks and if so what dimensions do they have on the mounting holes? worse comes to worse i suppose ican buy the door to the epanel to make it compatible. the approximate holes on mine are about 10" center to center high and about 7 and 5/8" center to center wide. -
Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For Mewayne,
does the prosine have separate neutral and ground? trouble is no charger or auto switch of grid ac circuit or am i wrong on that account?
Hi Niel, it does have separate neutral and ground, but they are bonded within the inverter. It has no charger, but some versions have built in relay that will transfer loads to grid when grid is available, and back to inverter when grid goes down. Other versions have GFI on the output.
I have a Prosine 1800/12 as well as as the 1000 watt version. Both have been flawless -
Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For Me
wayne,
i did see they have the model prosine 1000 24hwts, but have not found places that carry it so as to get price info and comparisons. that would be the 24v version of it with the transfer relay. only thing is i'd need a good charger which will add $ to it. to be honest the outback seems like the better buy even though the prosine is good. i do like the small idle power loss from the prosine. -
Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For Me
The GFX series is in the same case that the FX series, so all the holes would be the same as any other Outback Inverter. Even though it's 1400 watts it weighs 44 lb, all the boards are the same size as the others. The things I see different are that the FET board has 2 capacitors on it ( instead of 5 ) and the transformer is a little smaller.blackcherry,
would the mounting holes on yours be the same as the holes for the other outbacks and if so what dimensions do they have on the mounting holes? worse comes to worse i suppose ican buy the door to the epanel to make it compatible. the approximate holes on mine are about 10" center to center high and about 7 and 5/8" center to center wide. -
Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For Me
Does it have to be 12V ? -
Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For Me
There are 3 models. They are only a good deal if you know you'll only need their limited output on a small system, they do save about $600. I bought mine because they had Generator support, teamed up with a Honda EU 2000 it gives a lot of possibilities. It gives you the ability to run things that neither could run alone. They have a 60 amp transfer and pass through ( big plus ) and NO neutral / ground bond.Does it have to be 12V ?
GFX 1312 = 12V = 1300 watts + 70 amp charger
GFX 1424 = 24V = 1400 watts + 40 amp charger
GFX 1548 = 48V = 1500 watts + 20 amp charger
NAWS does not show them, but they are available. If I sound like a Fan Boy, it's because I am, I searched for years for a Inverter / charger with it's abilities and features.
NOTE: OutBack GFX International Series inverters are NOT ETL Listed to UL 1741. NOT intended for use in the U.S. or Canada. That means they should NOT be grid tied here to sell power, but they will if you turn the " sell " on.
. -
Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For Me
dmj72,
actually, i prefer it not be 12v due to my needing to parallel so many batteries. i can reconfigure the 4 batteries for 24v or 48v. general rule of thumb is 100ah in battery capacity for each kw of inverter capability at 48v. now it is 200ah for 24v and 400ah for 12v so i am borderline in my battery capacity no matter what way you look at it for the rule of thumb, but 24v or 48v would afford better wiring of the batteries with 48v being the one that i could expand with the same type batteries. i'm not likely to expand on them due to the batteries being about 3 years old. (actually 2 years and 7 months) only 1 incidence on them of deep cycling (about 40% soc) otherwise they were small draws from them for smaller outages and tests (60% soc or better). this was on average about every week so these batteries are not frequently pressed into service. -
Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For Me
blackcherry,
i won't need 4kw that's for sure as it is limited to the few items on 1 branch circuit. i had to fiddle with my wiring some to allow the majority of the things i'd like to keep going during outages on it, but i had no problem doing so as they draw appropriately for 1 circuit to function well with the wire being #12 and the main breaker at 20a. the excess wattage of a bigger inverter will not be needed, but will suffice if i don't over do the circuit as it is presently laid out for no greater than 1kva of inverting. i have to allow for the charger draw and not just the circuit draw, but even at that i have wiggle room.
i did not even realize that the inverter is able to sell and not approved for US. bummer as this will need the grid as pass through and for the charger function. -
Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For Me
That is not it, It's not certified to " Sell " power, that has nothing to do with hooking it up to grid power for pass through. I said it will sell if you turn the selling feature on. Mine is on grid 24/7, I have the sell disabled. They didn't word that statement very clear, since it's a grid interactive it's a back door way to have both.blackcherry,
i won't need 4kw that's for sure as it is limited to the few items on 1 branch circuit. i had to fiddle with my wiring some to allow the majority of the things i'd like to keep going during outages on it, but i had no problem doing so as they draw appropriately for 1 circuit to function well with the wire being #12 and the main breaker at 20a. the excess wattage of a bigger inverter will not be needed, but will suffice if i don't over do the circuit as it is presently laid out for no greater than 1kva of inverting. i have to allow for the charger draw and not just the circuit draw, but even at that i have wiggle room.
i did not even realize that the inverter is able to sell and not approved for US. bummer as this will need the grid as pass through and for the charger function.
You know the gig, if you don't have a net meter and you turn the sell on if will charge you for the power you produce. -
Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For Medmj72,
actually, i prefer it not be 12v due to my needing to parallel so many batteries. i can reconfigure the 4 batteries for 24v or 48v. general rule of thumb is 100ah in battery capacity for each kw of inverter capability at 48v. now it is 200ah for 24v and 400ah for 12v so i am borderline in my battery capacity no matter what way you look at it for the rule of thumb, but 24v or 48v would afford better wiring of the batteries with 48v being the one that i could expand with the same type batteries. i'm not likely to expand on them due to the batteries being about 3 years old. (actually 2 years and 7 months) only 1 incidence on them of deep cycling (about 40% soc) otherwise they were small draws from them for smaller outages and tests (60% soc or better). this was on average about every week so these batteries are not frequently pressed into service.
I highly recommend the Schneider Conext SW 2524. New firmware coming out in August will add grid-interactive features + bug fixes. Tare loss is a bit high, but its built like a freaking Tank. I have the 4024 version.
The AC regulation is top-notch.
$1,195 @ NAWS -
Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For Me
another option on the table. this is good. i think outback has the better track record and a better price too, but who knows what i may settle on by the time i come up with the $. -
Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For Me
There so many things that go into choosing a Inverter that you intend to use off grid with a small generator that you could write a book on it. Until you own one or get to test one you never know. The Inverter has to fit the Generator you intend to use. When the inverter qualifies the incoming power, how the charger reacts is important, if the charger does not ramp up the generator will be dropped. If the incoming breaker cannot be adjusted to the output of the generator, it is a problem. The charger has to be able stop on the limit set and not over shoot the setting. The charger has to be able to reduce it's output instantaneously. The Generator Support has to be seamless, any delay will cause it to fail. It's the instantaneous loads that that separate the good from the bad, refrigerator, microwave, air conditioner. It's pretty disgusting when you spend $1,000 + and it won't do what you thought it would.
Choosing a split phase output inverter, unless you have a need for one and a generator to support one it is a non starter in my book. If it will accept single phase input, then it is all split between 2 legs, that is very hard to balance on a small system and may cause a lot of problems with loads. I don't think it can be done with a small generator, but I could be wrong.
Just my .02 after many years of trying and what I learned along the way. -
Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For MeI highly recommend the Schneider Conext SW 2524. New firmware coming out in August will add grid-interactive features + bug fixes. Tare loss is a bit high, but its built like a freaking Tank. I have the 4024 version.
The AC regulation is top-notch.
By specification it has a tare loss of 40 watts. Some reviews put the tare loss higher. That's huge for a modest off grid system.
Be sure to read these reviews before you invest:
http://midniteforum.com/index.php?topic=1638.0
http://midniteforum.com/index.php?topic=1256.0Blackcherry04 wrote: »There so many things that go into choosing a Inverter that you intend to use off grid with a small generator that you could write a book on it. Until you own one or get to test one you never know.
An extremely important point. Personally, I would wait until BC04 posts a review on it before I purchased one.
--vtMaps4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i -
Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For Me
I have two SW series inverters they work great on a 20 KW generator, they won't on a small generator ( Honda EU 2000 size ), there to many issues to overcome. There is a reason I run a small Outback Inverter in parallel in my system, Here are a few things I'd look at. Some issues you can work around, some you can't.
ACin breaker setting = 5,10,15,20,25,30. The 10 amp setting is to small and the 15 amp is to large.
Generator Support
The Conext SW inverter/chargers can operate in tandem with an AC generator to temporarily assist power loads with large start-up demands such as air conditioners and water pumps. An Automatic Generator Start device (AGS) must be installed in the system in order for this feature to work. ( This you can work around, it has to be installed on the zanbus, it doesn't have to be wired up, but you do have to buy one $150 or so and you can manually start the Generator. )
AC Input
Split-phase output during invert mode and AC bypass The Conext SW always yields a split-phase output when inverting and during AC bypass.
• A split-phase input through L1 and L2 yields a split-phase output of L1 and L2.
• Single-phase input through L1 yields a split-phase output of L1 and L2.
• A single-phase input through L2 does not produce any output. Only the input in Line 1 is capable of qualifying the AC coming from the power source.
Power Share
The Conext SW charger uses both split-phase lines AC INPUT L1 and L2 to charge the batteries at full capacity. However, if only AC INPUT L1 is used, charge capacity is reduced to 50%. The Conext SW senses pass-through current going to the AC load. The difference between the pass-through (load) and 80% of the Power Share setting is the current that is available for charging the batteries. -
Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For Me
ags is not a priority although i have that ability right now excepting the generator. i look at it this way, i can feed the gen output into 2 side by side breakers with wiring i set up for this from the outside. it plugs into the outside wall with an extension for 240vac plugs on a romex wire for convenience and inside i extend and connect it to the breakers in the box. it takes a bit of time, but it is doable and it will feed enough to run most things in the house. my 4kw gen is not a very fuel efficient one nor is it one to auto start, but will provide an option for a time.
i don't mind the ags talk as it is always a good future option that is good to have, but it's not vital to my setup. -
Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For Me
With this information the Conext SW 2524 does sound a option to explore. Price wise it's a good deal for what you get. I have all my 240v stuff setup on separate panels and everything on the inverters is on their own single phase panels.ags is not a priority although i have that ability right now excepting the generator. i look at it this way, i can feed the gen output into 2 side by side breakers with wiring i set up for this from the outside. it plugs into the outside wall with an extension for 240vac plugs on a romex wire for convenience and inside i extend and connect it to the breakers in the box. it takes a bit of time, but it is doable and it will feed enough to run most things in the house. my 4kw gen is not a very fuel efficient one nor is it one to auto start, but will provide an option for a time.
i don't mind the ags talk as it is always a good future option that is good to have, but it's not vital to my setup. -
Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For MeI highly recommend the Schneider Conext SW 2524. New firmware coming out in August will add grid-interactive features + bug fixes. Tare loss is a bit high, but its built like a freaking Tank. I have the 4024 version.
The AC regulation is top-notch.
$1,195 @ NAWS
Pretty good reason not to buy one I'd say.
How many revisions does it take before the thing works? -
Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For MeCariboocoot wrote: »Pretty good reason not to buy one I'd say.
How many revisions does it take before the thing works?
I did a few beta revisions for Outback with your MX-60 and a few of mine. As good as the unit was at the time, I would say it never worked 100% right.;)"we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
htps://offgridsolar1.com/
E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net -
Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For MeDave Angelini wrote: »I did a few beta revisions for Outback with your MX-60 and a few of mine. As good as the unit was at the time, I would say it never worked 100% right.;)
Depends on how you define "100% right" as mine has no flaws at all; does exactly what it is expected to right out of the box. So does the inverter. No $300 'dongle' needed to attempt upgrades the brick the thing nor any excuses from the company about flaws being "features". Mainly because there aren't any flaws.
Oh for the days when Xantrex built good stuff! But the Gudgels can't work for everyone. At least not all at the same time. -
Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For Me
I sent Niel a PM, I'd suggest an Exeltech XP1100 in a 24v version. NAWS has nothing but good things to say about it, zero complaints or returns in 15 years! it comes with a shroud for hard wiring, has it's 'bonding' right at the hardwiring so it's easily removed;
Attachment not found.
...and if NAWS is correct, they still offer a $100+ parts repair, even if your version goes back to 1994 introduction of the xp100... pretty cool.
Attachment not found.
NAWS XP1100Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites, Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
- Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects. -
Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For Me
...Sorry, I missed that it must be a pass through inverter... Neil "...the inverter has to kick in for outages "
I've been happy with my Prosines, but I've never used them in this capacity, I think only one of them has this feature and I have never used it.Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites, Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
- Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects. -
Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For Me
We just disagree on too much. Not a problem though. 100% was closer when Outback replaced the MX series with the FM in my opinion. It certainly was Outbacks during the beta testing. I wonder what the owner here of the store thinks about a moderator constantly being unfair on a product he sells? It is harder for me to send business his way if a client is going to be exposed to such negativity. Oh well it is what it is.Cariboocoot wrote: »Depends on how you define "100% right" as mine has no flaws at all; does exactly what it is expected to right out of the box. So does the inverter. No $300 'dongle' needed to attempt upgrades the brick the thing nor any excuses from the company about flaws being "features". Mainly because there aren't any flaws.
Oh for the days when Xantrex built good stuff! But the Gudgels can't work for everyone. At least not all at the same time."we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
htps://offgridsolar1.com/
E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net -
Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For Me
NAWS is OK with negative reviews. They really do want full discussion/airing of issues.
Just as long as any such discussions do not become a personal crusade outside of the facts/experiences of the poster.
Take care,
-Bill "moderator" B.Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For Me
dave,
don't be too critical of coot's opinion as his concerns are valid. xantrex does have a poor record in that area beyond that of getting the usual bugs out of things from new equipment. some of their stuff would now be considered old and they still have unresolved bugs. -
Re: I Would Like Input From You Guys On A Inverter For Medave,
don't be too critical of coot's opinion as his concerns are valid. xantrex does have a poor record in that area beyond that of getting the usual bugs out of things from new equipment. some of their stuff would now be considered old and they still have unresolved bugs.
People like to bash Xantrex, and some of it is earned on their part, but the Conext SW is a all new Schneider design that works well in a single setup, the bugs seem to be with stacking etc. I love outback's fx series too .. bulletproof
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