Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

hemmjo

Ok, Here it is 4:30 am Sunday morning, I am leaving 5am Tuesday with all of the equipment you have all helped me assemble. THANKS so much for all of your assistance so far. I got the firmware successful updated yesterday, thanks for your help with that. I will certainly let you know how the installation goes when I get back, if anyone cares...

Two more questions. (Hopefully final for this project, until i get it all installed)

1) The Classic has a remote battery temp sensor, and I got the WhizBang battery monitor adapter to install. These are very small wires, handling tiny currents for measuring purposes. I do not see anything in the manual about routing these wires away form the large current carrying conductors what will always exist in a system. Is it OK to run these sensor wires out the same opening in the Classic box as the other wires?

2) More concerning to me right now....inside the Classic, along the right side there is a strip of components, all bonded together with some material. The red strip in the attached picture I got from the manual. Not that it makes any difference, my strip is black,. Not sure what the components are, but the material that seems to be bonding them together has tiny cracks between several of the devices. Maybe 3-4 cracks total. Have any of you Classic owners noticed this? Do you think it is of concern. There is no way I can test it here, no time left, no panels here, etc. Any thoughts on these cracks?

Thanks once more for your help,

John

verdigo

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

Mine has them as well. From past discussions the cracks are normal.

H2SO4_guy

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

Mine have cracks and the routing of the RTS doesn't matter, but I do route it though a seperate hole in the Classics. Don't forget to use it, you're batteries will suffer! Life off-grid is mostly about the care and feeding of your batteries. I use used batteries, but have different sets so it gives me options.

Good luck and let us know how it works out.

Skip

Vic

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

hemmjo,

The MidNite Tech folks have noted that the cracking on the plastic piece on top of the string of FETs in the Classic CC is NOT a problem.

Personally, have always tried to keep the BTS and other control cables separated from the PVin and CC output cables. Just a matter of personal preference. Have never heard of any problem with the BTS being routed in the same run (or conduit) as the CC's in/out cables.

It is possible if the WBjr violet sensor lead needs to be extended beyond the standard length, as supplied by the factory, noise could be an issue. In this case, the WBjr's reported current might be sporadic. boB, the main Hardware/FW Engineer at MN (as I read it), has mentioned that the WB data stream includes a Checksum, so the Classic knows weather the WB's reported current it to be trusted.

If you see sporadic current reports (this can be seen by the WB's green LED randomly flashing, I believe), possibly using a shielded cable spliced onto a shortened Violet lead could help. The shield of this cable should only be connected at on end.

Good Luck with your trip and installation. Hope that you have internet at your destination, and can report your progress. Vic

Vic

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

hemmjo,

I should have added that there is a very active MidNite Solar Forum. In case you do not know about it, it is here:
http://midniteforum.com/index.php

You probably know that, FWIW. Good Luck, Vic

hemmjo

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

Vic wrote: »

Good Luck with your trip and installation. Hope that you have internet at your destination, and can report your progress. Vic

There is some internet access in the city, but we are out in a very remote area. If I run into a problem I will for sure make a run into town to seek more guidance. I think you have all helped me to think this through pretty clearly, so I anticipate no problems in that area.

Now there are other areas that may cause problems, but that is way beyond the scope of this forum. I grew up thinking that "mañana" meant tomorrow in spanish. However where we are working it in reality means "not today". Could be tomorrow, next week, next month, but for sure, not today. As in, the solar panels we ordered from a local supplier to avoid shipping costs and headaches, well... they will in "mañana". They have been going to be in "mañana" for a week now.

But, we forge ahead with faith, doing what we can when we can do it, its all good.

I will for sure report in when I get back home.

Thanks,

John
villagemountainmission.org

hemmjo

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

Install complete. All works awesome. Still in country. Need help.

Only batts avail were InterState GC2-HD-UT. Tag says 115mins@75amps. Dealer says they are 225ah. Can anyone verify the specs on these?
Have 4 configured in 12 volt bank.

Pics and details when I get home.

Also Classic WhizBang manual says consult manufacturer for specs for amp values to set switching between charge phases. No one here has any clue what I am asking.
Any assistance appreciated.
Leave here Tues 3/18, so need info soon if you can help.
thanks
John

Vic

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

Hi John

Congratulations on the installation:

The Interstate Battery page for these batteries state that they are 216 AH at the 20 hour rate. These are Flooded batteries. So measuring the SG should tell how well that they are being charged.

Normally, using 1% of 20 hour Capacity works well for different Flooded batteries here.

So, you have two strings, so looks like you have about 432 AH Capacity, so setting EA for the WBjr of about 4.3 A should be close to correct. However, this assumes that the Absorb voltage is set to the correct value, which should be ABOUT 14.75, or perhaps 14.80, in my opinion.

Am certain that you are using the included Battery Temperature Sensor, which is important.

Hope that there is someone at this site that can monitor the SGs and perhaps make some fine tuning adjustments.

As these batteries get 50 to 100 charge cycles, the exact setting for EA might well change a bit.

Just my opinions, Good Luck, Vic

verdigo

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

This link http://www.batteries-faq.com/activekb/questions.php?questionid=1 from Interstate has the charge specs at the bottom of the page for their deep cycle batteries. 14.46 Bulk, 15.3 Absorb, 13.4 for float, and 15.6 for EQ. Seems they want you to smoke em.

Blackcherry04

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

We have discussed that chart linked to before, most consider it to be out in left field. If you were using a charger that just elevated the voltage to 15.3 v as a trigger voltage to go to float, it'd probably be ok, but if your using a 3 stage charger that is going to do a true absorb over a period of time ( in hours ) or ending amps, I'd avoid it.

Having had GC-2's for many years, I'd start my absorb voltage no higher than 14.6 V and go from there. Yeah, they are deep cycle, but they react to a lower voltage a lot quicker than L-16's do.

vtmaps

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

verdigo wrote: »

14.46 Bulk, 15.3 Absorb

They are not using the terms 'Bulk' and 'Absorb' the way we use those terms in solar chargers. Your charge controllers and inverter/charger don't have separate settings for bulk and absorb voltages.

On a RE system you should follow Blackcherry04's advice.

--vtMaps

verdigo

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

So on a 48 volt system just multiply BC04's numbers by four? My Classic 150 has separate settings for bulk, absorb, float, and EQ. Not to argue. You guys are the experts, and I have been cooking my batteries.

vtmaps

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

verdigo wrote: »

My Classic 150 has separate settings for bulk, absorb, float, and EQ.

No! It does NOT have separate settings for bulk and absorb voltages.

The only thing you can do with bulk is set a maximum amps. The purpose of that is to protect a small battery from the full force of a very large array. For most of us the maximum current into our batteries is limited by the size of our arrays.

Actually, there are probably a few other things you can do with bulk... like tell the Classic to skip bulk for a few days, but there is no bulk voltage setting.

Anytime you see voltage settings for both bulk and absorb, you are not dealing with the "IUoU" charging profile which is the type of charging profile that all of your equipment uses. Stephendv explains:
http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?p=110231#post110231

In RE systems, there may be multiple charging sources and multiple loads. The voltage goes up and down as loads turn on/off and as clouds go by. All the equipment is connected to the battery and knows the battery voltage. That's how each piece of equipment knows what's going on... by battery voltage.

Batteries for solar power systems are a niche market. Most battery manufacturers recommend charging profiles that assume you are charging from the grid (unlimited time and power), and they assume that the only thing connected to the battery is the charger. The chargers that use these recommended profiles are able to regulate the current into the battery, as well as the voltage. They can regulate the current because they are the only thing connected to the battery.

btw, in future firmware updates the Classic will be learning learning a few new current-based tricks. Only a few months ago it learned to terminate absorb by using end amps.

--vtMaps

verdigo

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

We have discussed that chart linked to before, most consider it to be out in left field. If you were using a charger that just elevated the voltage to 15.3 v as a trigger voltage to go to float, it'd probably be ok, but if your using a 3 stage charger that is going to do a true absorb over a period of time ( in hours ) or ending amps, I'd avoid it.

Having had GC-2's for many years, I'd start my absorb voltage no higher than 14.6 V and go from there. Yeah, they are deep cycle, but they react to a lower voltage a lot quicker than L-16's do.

So with two strings of eight GC2-XHD-UTL what would be your recommendations for initial charge controller settings as well as inverter charger settings "if different" from the grid? Should I keep Interstate's float and EQ settings?

Blackcherry04

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

verdigo wrote: »

So with two strings of eight GC2-XHD-UTL what would be your recommendations for initial charge controller settings as well as inverter charger settings "if different" from the grid? Should I keep Interstate's float and EQ settings?

Thats how I would set them if they were mine. bulk / absorb 58.4 v ( for 2 hours or 1-2% Ending Amps ) and float 54.0 v. Give them a week of good sun and check your SG's if at the end of a good charge your getting back to 1.240 - 1.250 , your fine. If you see them at 1.265 - 1.280 to me thats high for everyday. If they are 1.210 -1.230 they are a little low. From there you can extend / lower the time, the same for the Voltage, you can raise it or lower it .2 - .3 points and see if the trend changes. As it warms up, things will change, your temperature compensation will change, all these are guesses at best.

The main idea is to get them into range and then let the trend be the guide and not to knee jerk chasing it with large swings. Your EQ voltage is a little high, 60 - 62 V will be better . A GC-2 only has a 5" x 6" or so plate size and are very predictable how they react to charging.

verdigo

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

Thanks, and will do as you recommend. No sun today though. Once everything is connected I may as well let the inverter do the charging, and have it set to sell.

Dennis

Blackcherry04

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

I have a set of GC-2 's in a 12 V setup, all winter they have been temp compensating and have been at 14.8 -15.2 V . The SG's were 1.20 -12.50 all winter, This week I checked them and they were all at 1.280 SG reading. As the sun got better they were way over charging. I did a re-set on everything and I am going to watch them, it's either time or voltage that is off and it's cumulative over time.

hemmjo

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

Hello everyone, thanks so much for all of your help, especially last week when I was down there and needed quick help with some information.

Here is an update on my installation in the Dominican Republic.

When I got there I was able to get 4, SolarWorld Plus SW 275 mono panels. Connected them in two strings for Voc of 78.8. The best batteries I could get were 4 Interstate GC2-HD-UT, 216 ah batteries, configured in a 12 volt string.

I hooked it all up with components I carried down with me. MidNite Classic 150 controller with WhizBangcurrent sensor, 1000w Kisae inverter model SW 1210 , combiner/junction box assembled from stock components.

There is no grid available and even if it was the grid there only runs 4 sometimes 5 hours a day and is often off for 2-3 days.

The system is intended to provide power for a staff housing unit for our mission. 32 x 68 foot concrete and wood frame building with 4 rooms for 8 staff members, along with a small kitchen, refrigerator, showers, etc, a storage room and large common meeting space.

The refrigerator is the biggest load hog so I monitored its load carefully. I found it has .63 RLA(running load amps) so about 75 watt running load(this was measured with the fridge warm when first started. As it cools, the loads drops significantly), 5.3 LRA(locked rotor amps) so about 636 watts is the maximum starting load.

There are 7 LED lights spaced around where it is inconvenient to use a flashlight. When all LEDS are on the load is only 8.4 amps @ 12V, so 1.2 amps each.

Other loads are cell phone and computer charging. There is no internet access on our site but computers are for use in town where there is WIFI available when necessary.

Photos attached show the panels on the South facing roof, Attachment not found.

the outside storage room where the batteries are elevated on the concrete roof and shaded from hot afternoon sun, Attachment not found.
the batteries, Attachment not found.
and finally the controller and inverter mounted inside the building.Attachment not found.

Cariboocoot

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

Your batteries are wired wrong. They appear to be parallel pairs first then connected in series. You want them wired as 12 Volt strings first, then pair up the strings. Otherwise you are trying to push all the current through one wire between the two pairs.

hemmjo

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

I appreciate your observation, however I do not believe they are wired wrong, simply differently. I explored several ways to wire a series/ parallel battery bank. The "one wire" between the 6 volt strings is more than adequate to carry the load, it is also an excellent place for a fuse to protect the bank.

http://www.batterystuff.com/kb/articles/battery-articles/battery-bank-tutorial.html

Cariboocoot

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

Whatever. Not my problem as there's no way I'm traveling that far for a service call anyway.

zoneblue

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

Coots right. Hes pretty much always right Its not the recomended way. If done in two independent strings you are better able to fuse each string. If one of those battery internally shorts, it will short its mate, BOOM, showers of molten lead, sulpheric acid, and with hydrogen detonation finale, and thats why you need strings, and string fuses.

BTW the fuses need to be further away from the bank (500mm), otherwise its an ignition risk. Theres a few other changes id recommend, if you are interested.

zoneblue

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

Actually theres one ill point out anyway, becasue its a safety issue.

Inverters with power outlets are designed for portable use, and not as a rule intended for fixed installation. If you use them in buildings you must adhere to NEC/whatever local regs regulatory practices. This isnt just red tape, its for personal safety.

What you (appear to) have is the inverter plugged into a ac outlet as a means of distribution. The problem with this is that if say one appliance has a netrual to case fault, and another appliance has a live to case fault, and you are hanging off both appliances, then you will likely recieve a fatal shock.

The legal and safe way to do this is to wire from inverter to a distribution center, which has AC ground fault/RCD, and for personal safety and correct neutral to ground to stake bonding. I highly recomend you get a sparky to fix this up for you asap.

I commend you for your DIY build enthusiasm, its certainly a great thing to do, and for putting the pics up. You may get some other feedback, understnad thats its intended as constructive help, not as criticsim.

hemmjo

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

I have no problem with feed back. As I have said I appreciate all of the help I have received form this forum and seriously consider all feed back. I have learned too much by listening to feedback to discard any without considering it. Feedback is also the reason I posted photos of what I have done.

As for codes and local regulations, that's funny!!! Attached are some photos I took a while ago of the "grid" where this installation is located!! I cannot locate the photo I have of 6-8 meters hanging by their wires from poles, with MANY more unmetered lines running directly from homes to the conductors on the pole. I have watched a guy feed an 18 gauge zip cord feed through the thatched roof of his house, strip the ends with a machete, climb a pole in his bare feet with the wire in his mouth, and tap the grid. Not quite as dangerous as it sounds since there is a more than 75% chance the grid will be off at the time. The grid is crazy bad here. The common voltage available at a "LEGAL" metered drop for a house is in the 80-90 volt range. They need a step-up transformer to make things run.

Even though there are no codes or regulations involved, I want to do this correctly and safely. As for having a "sparky" do it, it is just going to me you all and me.

I am currently further researching Coots opinion about how to wire the battery bank. But I need a better reason than "Otherwise you are trying to push all the current through one wire between the two pairs." The wire between the pairs is sized correctly for the anticipated load thus that logic does not make sense. I see it shown both ways on multiple sites. Nowhere do I see a recommendation for fusing both strings individually.

In regard to fuse location, all I read says the fuse should be located as close to the battery as possible. I even see them (http://www.bluesea.com/products/category/Terminal_Fuse_Blocks) for mounting directly on the battery post. I am even considering getting those instead of the one that I installed as I do like like it hanging out in the air like it is now and I am trying to keep the wire runs as short as possible to minimize voltage drop to the inverter.

In regard to inverter wiring. It does have built in over load protection and GFCI circuit protection. There is a cord plugged into the inverter. It runs into a proper junction box where it is connected to an standard duplex outlet located over a shelf for electronic device charging. Or they can use the USB jack on the inverter. That circuit then runs to an additional box/outlet for a small washing machine (I mean small as in TINY). Then on to the last outlet for the refrigerator. Total length of run about 20 feet. In the scenario proposed where there are two different faults in two separate devices, wouldn't the GFCI trip as soon as the first fault occurred assuming the system were properly grounded, which it is?

Once again since tone is impossible to judge here, be assured that mine is always for discussion focused on deeper understanding. I return in June/July to make corrections and adjustments.

John
http://villagemountainmission.org/

These photos are not isolated situations, this is the common practice where our mission works. Please understand these are NOT practices that I follow or condone, it is simply the way many do things!!
Attachment not found.Attachment not found.Attachment not found.Attachment not found.

vtmaps

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

hemmjo wrote: »

I am currently further researching Coots opinion about how to wire the battery bank. But I need a better reason than "Otherwise you are trying to push all the current through one wire between the two pairs." The wire between the pairs is sized correctly for the anticipated load thus that logic does not make sense. I see it shown both ways on multiple sites. Nowhere do I see a recommendation for fusing both strings individually.

It's not just Cariboocoot's opinion. Every manufacturer of batteries and inverters that I have ever seen, recommend NOT doing what you did. The poor advice on the 'batterystuff' site just goes to show that you cannot believe everything you read on the internet. Go download the manuals for magnum or outback or schneider inverters and look at the battery wiring diagrams. Many battery manufacturers also publish similar diagrams.

--vtMaps

mike95490

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

Please read the much more comprehensive posting at http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html about wiring batteries on the diagonal. They explain the why's and such for the proper wiring methods.

The Blue Seas fuse holders are enclosed and designed and approved to be mounted close to the battery vents. They are nice, and available in a double version too.

verdigo

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

A quick question on the blue sea fuses. They show a 58 volt max voltage. I know we are talking amps to blow the fuse but during high absorb, and especially EQ charging will the 58 volt max be a preoblem?

Thanks

Dennis

BB.

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

Do you have a link to the specific fuses/fuse holders?

58 vs ~61 volts is not going to hurt anything with a fuse/breaker.

You can find a bunch of standard glass fuses Listed/rated for 110/120 or 250 VAC... Yet our high line voltage runs around 132/264 VAC.

I asked a UL inspector once years ago about this (specifically 48 VDC rated devices on a "48 volt" battery bank which can exceed 60 VDC during charging)--And he refused to say anything--And approved the system (72+ VDC stuff is/was hard to find--Which would have been my understanding of the requirements).

-Bill

verdigo

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

http://www.bluesea.com/products/5191/MRBF_Terminal_Fuse_Block_-_30_to_300A. As mentioned a couple of posts back in this thread.

Dennis

BB.

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

Between rock and hard spot with ratings... If you look at the details:

Maximum current interruption ratings:
10000A @ 14V DC
5000A @ 32V DC
2000A @ 58V DC

The higher the short circuit rating, the lower the rated voltage. Lead acid batteries can output a lot of current (and AGM even much more) into a short circuit. But it is not common to find the battery ratings--And you have to take into account the cabeling too (in this case, "too heavy" of cable can be a bit issue).

If you know/measure the battery series resistance and the minimum length of cable/AWG (cable resistance), you can figure out the maximum short cult current.

Say you have a 0.01 ohm battery and and 0.01 ohm cable run:

12 volts / 0.02 Ohms = 600 amps short circuit
48 volts / 0.02 Ohms = 2,400 amps short circuit

You can also look at Class T type fuses--In general, they have higher ratings:

http://www.solar-electric.com/infubr.html

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/622214.pdf

Voltage Ratings:
AC: 300 Volts (JLLN); 600 Volts (JLLS)
DC: 125 Volts (JLLN 1 – 30A)
160 Volts (JLLN 35 – 60A)
125 Volts (JLLN 110 – 1200A)
300 Volts (JLLS)

Interrupting Ratings:
AC: 200,000 amperes rms symmetrical
DC: 20,000 amperes
(JLLN 110 – 1200A)
(JLLS 1 – 1200A)

Ampere Range: 1– 1200 amperes

Not to say that I would not use Blue Sea fuses+holders... They are a very neat part that makes wiring up battery banks/larger cables+loads much easier. And, overall, make a system a lot safer.

But when you go to larger and larger battery banks (and higher voltages), DC gets really dicey... Note that the DC interrupt rating is 1/10th the AC rating for the same fuse (and ~1/2 the voltage rating).

Longer term... If you can mount the wiring/hardware on non-flammable surfaces (sheet rock, brick wall, over a non flammable tile/dirt/concrete/sheet metal floor under the hardware)--It would be a bit safer. Wood and many synthetic materials are just too easy to light off with sparks/hot wires.

There have been a few fires that folks have documented here--Add a generator + oil + fuel (leaks, cuts, battery/backup powered electric fuel pumps that pressurize broken lines (as a problem in the 9/11 attacks in NYC emergency center fire)... The failure modes become more complex and more costly (as the systems grow).

For example, placing your batteries+inverter+etc. in one shed and a your genset+fuel in another--Both with a defensible space to occupied buildings. You don't have to do it--But it does reduce the cost of failure (if it ever happens).

-Bill

zoneblue

Re: Question for MidNite CLassic 150 owners

verdigo wrote: »

A quick question on the blue sea fuses. They show a 58 volt max voltage. I know we are talking amps to blow the fuse but during high absorb, and especially EQ charging will the 58 volt max be a preoblem?

Thanks

Dennis

Voltage is related somewhat to current interupt capacity. The thing you want to be comfortable about is the ability of the device to break the arc that forms across the fuse.

Its for this reason that we love midnites Carling and CBI breakers, and thier reliability is what provides the best nights sleep around.

A related problem exists for your busman breakers. They are also 48V rated as well, and not know to have a high interupt rating. Being thermal / sealed as opposed to magnetic hydraulic there is no arc shute, no where for it to go.