Hybrid Cars

Brianellul
Brianellul Solar Expert Posts: 95 ✭✭
Hello


I'm evaluating on purchasing a hybrid car and need some feedback from you guys. Do you actually in real-life (and not a laboratory test) reduce gasoline consumption?

My concern is that every battery, being Lead Acid, Li-ion battery is not 100% efficient i.e. for every 100 units which you put in, you will get 70-80 back, the remaining lost in the chemical charging/discharging process & as heat. Now, a hybrid car battery only charges itself using the ICE. This means that it will be using extra fuel to charge the battery, which energy is released afterwards. Granted, the hybrid uses wasted energy during braking to recharge the batteries but will this be enough to compensate for the battery inefficiency?

Regards
Brian
«13

Comments

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Hybrid Cars

    As I understand, part of it depends on where you drive... Lots of hills/stop and go driving for longer distances--A Prius is pretty good. Short trips, long highway driving, the batteries don't help much.

    And there are the new diesels... Here in California metro areas diesel is pretty expensive--10 to 20% more expensive? Some (?) new diesels have urea injection to meet new US emissions requirements. You do have to refill every 40,000 miles or so (after-market urea seems to be much less expensive than dealer).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Brianellul
    Brianellul Solar Expert Posts: 95 ✭✭
    Re: Hybrid Cars

    Thanks BB for your feedback. The car I'm looking at is the Toyota hybid Auris (for the european market). I live on a small island and therefore there are no highways however it's pretty congested with traffic ;)
  • solarix
    solarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
    Re: Hybrid Cars

    The battery cycling in a hybrid (like my Prius) is so short that there is very little battery loss. More so than the regen, the main gain provided by the hybrid is the electric assist makes it possible for the engine to run almost all the time in its efficiency "sweet spot". Going up a hill or accelerating, the electric allows the engine to work easy, and then going down the other side, you coast and the engine often turns off. Plus, the Prius has an amazing true continuously variable transmission that is highly efficient. Check it out on youtube. In addition, my Prius is souped up with extra Li-Ion batteries, which are externally charged and boost my milage up to 60mpg in spite of my hilly area. In flat areas, it can get into the 70's for the first 30 miles. That being said, is it cost effective? No, but I don't care, I just hate going to gas stations, and funding everything they stand for. My biggest aggravation is following around all the drivers trying so save gas by going slow.
  • Organic Farmer
    Organic Farmer Solar Expert Posts: 128 ✭✭
    Re: Hybrid Cars

    We have a Prius Gen-3.

    My wife uses it for work commute. It cut her fuel purchasing in half, as compared to her previous car an Aveo.

    Last spring we drove down to DC [to get my in-laws], then out to Kansas for a wedding then back to DC and finally back up to Maine. We had four large adults plus all luggage in the Prius. We stayed on Interstates and cruise-control set to 5mph over the posted limits the entire trip. Two tanks gave us 62mpg, and two tanks gave us high 50s. The entire ride was comfortable for all four of us.

    Most of the time my wife gets mileage in the upper 50s. Her commute is 25 miles each way.

    In winter the mileage drops. With temps fluctuating between 20F and -20F we only get around 54mpg.
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Hybrid Cars

    We have a pair of Chevy EREV Volts, while not really a hybrid in the generally know sense. In general we don't buy much gas, like one 5-7 gallon fill per year, unless we drive more than 40ish miles. At 40 miles the engine kicks in to run a generator so even slightly longer trips use minimal fuel. I did drive mine to Vegas @ 65-70 mph and burned about 15 gallons round trip for about a 40 mpg rate of burn when moving on the generator.

    So far both the wife and I went one year on a tank and the car forced a a stale fuel burn and refill. We charge them off our grid tie solar. SO far we have seen no battery degradation for the range.

    BTW I replaced a 6.0 liter CTSv that was lucky to get 17-20 mpg.

    Saves us a huge amount of gas.

    BTW
    The wife's 2011 (ecosister) is 687 mpg!!!
    My 2012 (Red-Rider) is at 519 mpg because of the trip to Vegas!!!
    http://www.voltstats.net/Stats/GroupDetails/14
  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    Re: Hybrid Cars

    Definitely saves gas. Long highway trips (14 hours to Florida and back, several times), regular stop-and-go commutes, doesn't seem to matter with ours. 52 mpg summer, 46 mpg winter. Cold air is much more dense which is why all cars loose a little mpg in the winter. Ours has dropped a bit lately but it is due for new spark plugs and new transaxle fluid which is probably the root cause. Remember that the hybrids aren't designed to put more than a minimal charge on the battery from the engine, the rest is opportunity charging while you drive so there is little loss going from gas>rotational>electric.

    My wife and I have nearly the same commute, I use ~23 gallons per week @17 mpg, she uses 8 gallons in the Prius.

    And see my signature for my favorite "aftermarket" use of my Prius... 8)
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
  • Wxboy
    Wxboy Solar Expert Posts: 70 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Hybrid Cars

    I've had a Gen 3 Prius for 2 years now and here are some thoughts...

    BB is right about short trips, the hybrid fuel economy suffers but it's still darn good compared to many other cars. Also cold weather is the enemy but it hurts all cars. The effects of both short trips and cold weather are a little more pronounced in hybrids. On the flip side the fuel economy in mild weather can be amazing. When you average it all out a Toyota hybrid will save a lot of fuel for most people with average driving habits. If you drive 2 miles per day then it won't save you much gas because you weren't using much to start with.

    In 2 years of mixed driving and 2 different drivers we are averaging 52 mpg in the U.S. Our fuel economy varies from the 30's on short trips in cold weather to 60 with warm temps and no ac. But again the average is what matters and most people are very happy with their fuel savings if that was their goal to begin with.

    Don't get hung up on battery efficiency. The battery is there to store and release small amounts of energy. The hybrids use a more efficient gas engine which has less torque than a standard engine. The electric motor and battery help to make up for the lack of engine torque when accelerating. When on the highway the battery doesn't do a lot and the efficient engine does it's thing to still give good fuel economy. Hybrids focus on not wasting a lot of energy and most of them do a very good job at it. If you hit the brakes they store energy in the battery, if you are coasting the gas engine shuts off, there is electric power steering, electric ac, electric water pump, no accessory belt(at least on the Prius anyway, not sure about the Auris). So again the battery is a very important part of a hybrid but it's more of an energy buffer and booster than anything else. I think the Prius has a 1.4 kwh pack give or take and the car is programmed to stay between 40 and 80 percent charge level to give it a long lifespan which in most cases is has proven to do.
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Hybrid Cars

    we have several Pruis in the family. All average 50+ us mpg. Of the 4, non have been in the shop ever, with an a average of 75k miles. A good trick is to install a simple Scan Gauge to monitor engine temps, and then use foam pipe insulation to plug much of the grill, especially in the wintertime. the Prius in fact won't ever get warm enough to be efficient without plugging the grill, especially if you are running the heat.

    Plugging the grill so that the engine temp is ~ 190 yield the best mileage.

    I jut wish they made a AWD and or a small pick up.
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Hybrid Cars
    Brianellul wrote: »
    Thanks BB for your feedback. The car I'm looking at is the Toyota hybid Auris (for the european market). I live on a small island and therefore there are no highways however it's pretty congested with traffic ;)

    All these Prius owners, and no one addressed your driving conditions. Sounds idea for a hybrid! They really shine in stop and go traffic when compared to gas only cars.

    So I was going to pop in and say a sensible car driven reasonably gets me 48mpg on the Hwy and 35 in town and 30 in my little hilly 20mph community. Toyota Echo. In shop for the first time at 200K for 2 new coils and the serpentine belt. I change my own oil & filters. Might look into an electric since I would think it would be the ultimate congested traffic vehicle, though the A/C would be problematic.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • thehardway
    thehardway Solar Expert Posts: 56 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Hybrid Cars

    would you all please elaborate a little on the type of terrain you drive. I need to purchase a newer vehicle, one that gets better fuel economy. The 2.3L Ford ranger I am driving now averages about 21mpg which is not bad for the hauling capacity it gives me and I am approaching 300k mi on it. Now that I have moved and am no longer hauling building materials on a daily basis its time to look at something else. My commute is 41mi. each way. It start out with a couple steep hills and 7mi. of windy hilly back roads at 40-50mph, then I'm on 34mi. of 4 lane highway at 65 mph with gently rolling terrain. Reverse this coming home. I encounter very few stoplights.

    Since I am spending about $450 a month on gas in the truck, gas is currently 3.60 gal. if I could get a car in the 40-50 mpg range it would cut $225 off my gas expense which I could put into a car payment.

    I have seen a few older Honda Insights for sale in the $200 a month payment range but not sure how reliable a used one would be. New hybrids are too expensive for my budget. I used to get 43 mpg in my '97 cavalier with manual trans and have been looking for 04, 05 cavalier as they seem to offer best economy per dollar spent but if I could get a hybrid that got 50-60 mpg that might tip the scale but how would they do on the steep windy hills? Also considering a CNG option.
  • solarix
    solarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
    Re: Hybrid Cars

    Hardway, the best mileage for your dollar is a tiny car if you can put up with all the discomforts that entails. Maybe for commuting that is acceptable, but if you want a nicer, midsize car at a reasonable cost, the Prius is the best bang for your buck. Most other hybrids have very small batteries and don't have near the mileage and the Volt has better mileage but at much higher price. The Prius will do quite well on your terrain. Its battery is good for about 5 miles of up or down hill before it runs out of capacity and reverts to engine only mode. The way I see it, you are sending $225/month out of the country to places that don't like you.
  • Wxboy
    Wxboy Solar Expert Posts: 70 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Hybrid Cars

    Hardway, every driver would get different fuel economy on your specific route since the driver plays a huge role in mpg. That being said if you are getting 21 mpg in a Ranger you know you will more than double that in a Prius. Going up hills will give you terrible fuel economy but going down them it will be exceptional and it all evens out. Most people average about 49 mpg with a Prius. Most likely you will get at least 45 and you may get 50+. The fact that you drive long distances which allows your engine to fully warm up and overcome the poor mpg of the first few minutes pretty much ensures you would do very well. In my experience the Prius loves rolling hills but it really will do well in just about any terrain.
  • Organic Farmer
    Organic Farmer Solar Expert Posts: 128 ✭✭
    Re: Hybrid Cars
    thehardway wrote: »
    would you all please elaborate a little on the type of terrain you drive....

    I live in Maine. Mostly level-ish land. Roads tend to follow alongside rivers, and were historically cow paths. Few of these roads were surveyed in straight lines or to follow a grid pattern.

    Gentle rolling hills, that I guess from valley to peak is no more than 100 elevation difference.

    My road is a river road, so it is subject to a lot of fog. When the ground/pavement is below freezing then any fog will freeze onto the pavement making 'black ice'.

    In my township we do not use salt on the roads, in fact the majority of towns in this state refuse to use salt. We 'plow' to scrap excess snow off, and otherwise to keep the ice/snow-pack smooth for driving across. Sometimes they scatter dirt on the pavement, in the thought that dirt may help traction.

    Speed limits are mostly set at 45mph. Though in urban neighborhoods it will go down to 25mph.

    The interstate is posted at 75mph.
  • Skippy
    Skippy Solar Expert Posts: 310 ✭✭
    Re: Hybrid Cars

    I read thru all the posts here, and did not see it.. . did I miss it ?

    Nobody here has mentioned replacing the battery in the car. If the battery lasts for 5 years, then you would have to take the cost of the battery into your "gas savings" . . you could buy alot of gas for the price of a battery. . . (5 - 10 K $ ?)

    I have been looking into getting one for years, and have been stopped by the price of the replacement batteries, versus the gas savings, as well as being in a cold climate reduces battery capacity (for my area).

    As for driving on an island, in grid lock, it sounds perfect for a hybrid - mainly warm weather , and when its not moving, its not using power. . . you could sit there for days :p;)
    2 - 255W + 4 - 285W PV - Tristar 60 amp MPPT CC / 3 - 110W PV -wired for 36V- 24V Sunsaver MPPT CC / midnite bat. monitor.
    1 KW PSW inverter 24V / 2.5 KW MSW inverter-24V ~ 105 AHR battery.
    3 ton GSHP.- 100 gallon warm water storage / house heat - radiant floor / rad
    9 -220W PV - net meter - Enphase inverters and internet reporting system.
    420 Gallon rain water system for laundry.***  6" Rocket Mass Heater with 10' bed for workshop heat.
    Current project is drawing up plans for a below grade Hobbit / underground home.
    Google "undergroundandlovinit" no spaces.
  • Organic Farmer
    Organic Farmer Solar Expert Posts: 128 ✭✭
    Re: Hybrid Cars
    Skippy wrote: »
    I read thru all the posts here, and did not see it.. . did I miss it ?

    Nobody here has mentioned replacing the battery in the car. If the battery lasts for 5 years, then you would have to take the cost of the battery into your "gas savings" . . you could buy alot of gas for the price of a battery. . . (5 - 10 K $ ?)

    8 year warranty on the main battery.
  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Hybrid Cars
    8 year warranty on the main battery.
    US Federal law and some state laws do require a pretty long warranty on the battery. Some time around the 2005 model year Toyota started using a battery pack design on the Prius which allowed replacement of individual groups of cells to reduce warranty expense. They were doing a 100% replacement of too many battery packs.

    But once the warranty is up, you are on your own. Assuming that the replacement battery pack is even available when you need it. :-(
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Hybrid Cars
    inetdog wrote: »
    US Federal law and some state laws do require a pretty long warranty on the battery. Some time around the 2005 model year Toyota started using a battery pack design on the Prius which allowed replacement of individual groups of cells to reduce warranty expense. They were doing a 100% replacement of too many battery packs.

    But once the warranty is up, you are on your own. Assuming that the replacement battery pack is even available when you need it. :-(

    Yep Chevy does 8 year 100 mile on the Volt, and in California on the the HOV lane cars is giving 10 year 150,000 mile warranty. Replacement cost looks like about $3,000 from the price lists, and several cars have over 50K miles on them now, I have yet to hear of any complete replacements for age related issues. There have a a couple that had some sort of error faults and they were pulled and replaced by GM to take to the lab for evaluations, I think mostly for Battery Management issues. Chevy was very conservative only using the middle 10-10.5kWh of the 16kWh battery, charge to 80% and discharge to like 20% while using a liquid cooling system to manage the temperatures to guarantee the battery only sees a health environment. They also limited the recharge rate to 3300 watts continuous so a recharge takes 4+ hours and a total of 13.3 kWh to get its full charge. In my Phoenix garage I can hear the BMS kick in about every 4 hours to cool the battery off during a 110+F day, drawing 800 watts from the wall charger to operate.

    Like I said in the Boeing thread, they should look to GM for battery management. A very well engineered system IMHO.
  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Hybrid Cars

    My brother had a prius and the battery died. The toyota dealer wanted $4000.00 for a new battery. He got discouraged and traded the prius in on a used Camry. Since he gets his gasoline free he didn,t think he would save much money if he got a new battery. Why he gets his gas free. He works for a chain of gas stations and has his company pump a little out of the bottom of the tanks to keep water out of the fuel. Originally they cleaned out the water and sold the clean gas back to them. Now the stations will take the gas for free but won,t pay for it. So his boss lets the employees have the gas. :Dsolarvic:D
  • Skippy
    Skippy Solar Expert Posts: 310 ✭✭
    Re: Hybrid Cars
    8 year warranty on the main battery.

    With all the discussion going on about electric cars, I thought I would make it a well rounded discussion on the pros and cons. . .;)
    2 - 255W + 4 - 285W PV - Tristar 60 amp MPPT CC / 3 - 110W PV -wired for 36V- 24V Sunsaver MPPT CC / midnite bat. monitor.
    1 KW PSW inverter 24V / 2.5 KW MSW inverter-24V ~ 105 AHR battery.
    3 ton GSHP.- 100 gallon warm water storage / house heat - radiant floor / rad
    9 -220W PV - net meter - Enphase inverters and internet reporting system.
    420 Gallon rain water system for laundry.***  6" Rocket Mass Heater with 10' bed for workshop heat.
    Current project is drawing up plans for a below grade Hobbit / underground home.
    Google "undergroundandlovinit" no spaces.
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Hybrid Cars

    In point of fact, Prius battery failures are very rare, th are many in txi service with over 500,000kms on them. Second, the price you hear for replacement cost is usually wildly inflated. The current price for a gen 2 battery is $3k. I have never known anyone who has had to replace one out of warrantee. Be careful of urban myths regring hybrids, as there is a pretty good data base out there to go by.

    Icarus
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Hybrid Cars

    We have driven one coast to coast several time, always averaging jut about 50 (us) mpg. My brother has one in Boston and gets a bit over fifty over the life of the car, and my sister owns one in the PAC NW and she get right at 52 averge over 75k miles.

    Terrain doesnt have too much effect in the net, but driving style has a lot!


    Tony
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Hybrid Cars

    I believe that California considers the battery bank to be part of the emissions system. Therefore it has to have a 150,000 mile mfg warranty.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Hybrid Cars

    My brother that had a prius lives in Raleigh NC. Some warning lights come on and he took it to the toyota dealer and $4000.00 was the toyota dealer quote for a new battery. If it were me I would have checked with another toyota dealer instead of trading at a loss for another used toyota. He was here in Pa. visiting a couple months before and I rode in it a couple of times. It still looked like new condition and rode like a new car. In N Carolina the cars don,t rust like they do here in Pa. If I knew he was going to do that I would have bought it off him. You still could drive it. Somehow I think that toyota dealer took him in. solarvic
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Hybrid Cars

    There is a failrly robust used battery market out there now, as well as folks that rue build batteries using new or used replacement cells. The $4K number is too high IMHO, as the labor is fairly easy, a couple of hours if that.

    Tony
  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    Re: Hybrid Cars
    icarus wrote: »
    ...
    Terrain doesnt have too much effect in the net, but driving style has a lot!
    Tony

    Very true. With me behind the wheel the mpg meter goes up, with my wife behind the whell it drops like a rock.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    Re: Hybrid Cars

    Discussing this exact thing on a Prius forum right now. Its only a 2 hour job but as always dealers build in multiple hours based on their labor book rate, which is part of those inflated $4k quotes. You can rebuild your own battery for under $1k, get a rebuilt or used one from a junker for $1.5k. New you can negotiate well below $4k.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Hybrid Cars

    Well, I can,t believe my brother didn,t do any research. The dealer really depreciated the prius when he traded in at the same dealer. So that dealer probably made a real killing on him as I think they make more money on excelent condition used cars than what they make on new. solarvic
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Hybrid Cars

    you are right vic as any search will show the pricing on used cars has gone ridiculous.
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Hybrid Cars

    Car dealers make money on EVERY side of the deal, the initial sale, the trade, the resale of the trade, the depreciation of book value, the quick fix of problems, and the service department. What is stunning is how often they go out of business given the profit centers built into the business. I guess the overhead must be too high!

    My rule of vehicles is, buy good used cars ~3-5 years old, from non rust markets and move them if I have to, then take care of them and drive them forever. I am currently driving a 99 Subaru bought for 55% of new, with 34k miles on it. I have driven it 150k, and with the exception of a starter, a EGR, timing belt, and rotors and pads, tires, fluids and filters, it still goes strong. The 45% price differential between the new and used has more than payed for all the service, service that I also would have had to do in the same miles on a new one.

    Tony
  • Ralph Day
    Ralph Day Solar Expert Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Hybrid Cars

    I'm with Tony on used, and especially Subaru vehicles. Even bought at 5 years old you can stop the rust cold with application of dripless rust undercoating (the kind sprayed into the doors, rockers etc). I've sprayed all my vehicles, and except for the "weep and creep" seen around the door drain holes (coating creeps out, dirt adheres to it) there's no drawbacks, just wipe the creep now and then to keep it off your pants, fingers, sleeves. 2000 Toyota Camry, no rust. 2005 Subaru, no rust. Previous vehicles that had been sprayed, no rust. I started out using chainsaw oil, it's got adhesives to keep it sticking to the chainsaw bar, so it would stick in the voids. Smelled and dripped all over the driveway, the drippless stuff does not.

    Ralph