Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice :)

dudeface

Hey all

I am considering buying 1kw worth of DIY cells from ebay for about 300ish. I am trying to figure out how many panels and the final cost
of each panel before i commit.

- Unsure whether i should buy the SHARP 6x6 panels from japan or the 3x6 panels from china.
- I need to know the size of a completed panel and how many cells on each panel (for pricing EVA)
- Cheapest effective encasement glass/plexiglass a storm window or something...
- Type of wiring i will need from panels to house
- Advice on charge controllers and inverters
- HOW MANY BATTERIES will i need (6v or 12v)

Any advice you can give would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance for putting up with questions you have answered a 1000 times already

dudeface

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

I will also need to know how much tabbing and buss wire to get. Thanks

Photowhit

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

For any response to make sense we would need to know what you plan on powering?

Knowing that professionally made panels can be had for under $1 a watt, usually it isn't very cost effective to make your own.

niel

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

we don't recommend doing this as you will not come up with a pv better or cheaper than those that are commercially made. commercial pvs are fairly cheap nowadays so get yourself something good that will last at least 25yrs.

if you insist on doing homemade pvs then know that these will not be approved upon an inspection and your insurance carrier will not cover your home due to any problems that they even think could've been caused by the homemade pvs.

btw, you need to know what you are going to use it for and what the loads would be over a 24hr day to size up any other equipment to match.

gww1

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

From some one who has did it. Panels are to cheap to mess with this. If you are going to go further anyway. Look here:

http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,145005.0.html

Good luck
gww

PS Several other current post at other power.

solarix

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

Been there, done that. Once you figure in all the other materials (glass, aluminum framing, backsheet, tabbing) needed to make a panel besides the PV cells, you will find that it costs you more to make an inferior product, than if you just buy a high quality, manufactured module. Not even figuring your time. There is a reason mass production changed the world.
But hey, it can be a great learning experience though. Go for it....

icarus

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

"all together now...with top quality panels avaialbe for under $1/watt why on earth would you spend as much to build your own"

Repeate until understood!

Icarus

BB.

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

I will add there is an issue with building panels from flammable materials (such as various forms of plastic sheeting/wood frames/etc.)... Building a small panel (10 watt) is unlikely to catch fire. However, building 100-200+ watt panels, there is more than enough energy (voltage and current) to easily start a fire if anything goes wrong. Even fire rated plastics will burn very nicely if there is a sustained heat source (such as an arc).

Here is the the results of one such fire:

Panel Fire Question

If you build your panels over a gravel bed instead of over brush or on a roof, at least you reduce the risk of fire spreading to your home.

-Bill

waynefromnscanada

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

The only people who will tell you this is a wonderful idea, are those selling the bits and pieces you'll need to build the panels.
My advice? If you want to build a small one for the learning experience, go for it. If you're looking for something useful and reliable for the long term, then like the others have said, purchase a high quality mass produced, factory built panel/s.

Flip570

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

out of that 1k you may end up with 250w if your lucky. I broke more cells then i made. It will take alot of hours. But a good learn.

dudeface

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

Photowhit wrote: »

For any response to make sense we would need to know what you plan on powering?

Knowing that professionally made panels can be had for under $1 a watt, usually it isn't very cost effective to make your own.

could you throw me a link please? i have been looking and i cant find anything less than 2 bucks a watt.

Photowhit

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

dudeface wrote: »

could you throw me a link please? i have been looking and i cant find anything less than 2 bucks a watt.

I guess you haven't looked very hard, Here are panels at $1 a watt from our sponsor;

http://www.solar-electric.com/conergy-polycrystalline-solar-panel-245-watt-pm245p.html

I'll PM you other places even cheaper, but it's hard to go wrong with a site that can answer questions inteligently!

Cariboocoot

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

Most of the panels the forum host offers are under $2 per Watt:
http://www.solar-electric.com/hiposopa.html

Sometimes you can find deals on the 'Net for close outs, blemished, or discontinued units.

And no, none of us moderators are actually connected with NAWS. We just keep things running here.

dudeface

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

i am looking to power whatever i can get away with powering. lights for sure, maybe desktop computers or plasma tv, can opener ect.. prolly anything except refrigerator and stove, or even these if i can. I want to power as much as i can get away with.

I want to get off the grid AS cheaply as possibly. I cannot afford a buck a watt. I have all the time in the world to construct panels. I dont really care much for the warranty or
tax breaks or UL listings. I could consider pre fab panels if they were 50 cents a watt though. I have a very small budget to do this with. I also have a background in electronics
and remember some of it lol...its been 20 years ago and i repair computers now a days while i wait on disability for cancer. I have got to do this as cheaply as possible.

Cariboocoot

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

Okay, problem #1: you want to get off the grid. So you already have grid power? Getting off it will not save you a dime as off-grid power at its cheapest is still more expensive than grid power almost anywhere.

This is not an avenue that will save you money even if the panels were $0.50 per Watt. Building your own panels may look cheaper, but it often costs more than $2 per Watt. And panels aren't the only cost. Battery costs are high, inverter costs are high, et cetera.

My advice is buy a Kill-A-Watt for $30 and examine everything you use and see what can be reduced. Spending money on conservation will return more than off-grid power will.

gww1

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

I built 2000 watts. I used mostly eva and liquid incapsulate. I did some with contact paper. The only ones I did that I come close to trusting are the ones with the liquid incapsulate. With it I seemed to break more cells trying to be sure they were compleetly covered. They are the only ones that don't condense water in the panel. It is the most exspencive. The link I posted in my other answer here would probly show how to use eva in a better fassion then I did with mine. You need vacume or you end up with water in your panels, too much vacume you break cells. It took well over 16 hours to complete a 60 watt panel. Just in electric for the solder gun and heating the eva was large. Not counting that cost my panels still cost 50 bucks for 60 watt panel. This was with my glass being free, not putting frames on "just glass" and no junction box "just tabs coming out of encapsulant with a diode on the poss one. I payed an average of $380 per 1000 watts of the cells and tabbing. Off of 3000 watts worth of cells I ended up with about 2300 watts of sub standard panels. I payed $0.94 cents a watt for mx 235 watt panels delivered.

In my defence I was possesed last winter insted of board, however I am now coniving on how to get 12 more of the mx panels so I only have to use the home made for camping spot and such. I do have 180 watts at a creek on two car batteries going on my second year and it has been kind of neat.

Good luck
gww

gww1

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

cariboocoot
I thought I could save money, but now know better, but am going to produce some high cost electric and I just don't care anymore what it cost. I am going to conserve later.

Dudeface
Let this be a lesson to you. When I go broke and lose everything or die my stuff might come up on a yard sale and you might be able to get it cheap enough to make money. Of course this would have to happen while the batteries are brand new cause if you have to buy them new, they will cost more by themselves then you can buy electric from the grid for.

This is like being hooked on crack.

Cheers
gww

Photowhit

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

Hi Dudeface,

What is your electric running in Kwhs a month?

Where are you located, and what is a minimal lifestyle for you?

Is there some reason you don't want to use the grid?

icarus

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

I guess this says it all:


"
I thought I could save money, but now know better, but am going to produce some high cost electric and I just don't care anymore what it cost. I am going to conserve later. "

Icarus

icarus

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

Those of us who live off grid do so (largely) not because it is "cheap" but rather it is because the grid is just not avaialbe! There are those that for what ever reason they want to "stick it to the power company", but they rarely if ever can do it as cheaply and as reliably as with the grid.

If you really want to "stick it to to the power company" use less power (conserve!) or do a net metered or time of use metered grid tie system so that they end up paying you! It seems misinformation, even (especially?) in the Internet age is still rampant.

Tony

niel

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

actually he can still utilize solar in a grid tied arrangement and use the grid like a battery.

Cariboocoot

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

niel wrote: »

actually he can still utilize solar in a grid tied arrangement and use the grid like a battery.

But again, not with homemade panels.

niel

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

Cariboocoot wrote: »

But again, not with homemade panels.

right, as it would not get approved by the inspector, the insurance company, or the electric company with home made panels.

Photowhit

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

dudeface wrote: »

i am looking to power whatever i can get away with powering. lights for sure, maybe desktop computers or plasma tv, can opener ect.. prolly anything except refrigerator and stove, or even these if i can. I want to power as much as i can get away with.

Well you can power anything with enough solar. I actually intend to run a couple ACs and electric waterheater(a real no-no!)

dudeface wrote: »

I want to get off the grid AS cheaply as possibly. I cannot afford a buck a watt. I have all the time in the world to construct panels. I dont really care much for the warranty or tax breaks or UL listings. I could consider pre fab panels if they were 50 cents a watt though. I have a very small budget to do this with.

I'm one of the few that have the grid running by my house and will cut the cord this spring. I had a somewhat goofy situation where I was cost effective with solar at my cabin, due to a very high user fee of $25 a month and minimal use. I had just purchased a large forklift battery, when a newer mobile home and land fell into my lap.

I had already purchased the large battery and choose to use solar for the new place. My panels have a cost of 88 cents a watt delivered for 4000 watts and 26 cents a watt for 2600 watts (new panels in a warehouse accident, had to properly dispose of the broken panels), with the 30% tax credit I'm at about 53 cents a watt. I didn't feel I could take the tax credit on the warehouse deal as I was not the 1st owner.

That $3475 is just the start of my investment, I also have 3 charge controllers ($1500), only 2 would be needed if I decided to go 48Volt, but I had purchased a largish 24 volt battery another @$2540, I'm using a 1800 watt inverter I got a deal on and was a backup at the cabin, but figure $1500 for a new one, I had much of the wire on hand but reconfiguring a combiner box and purchasing an E-Panel, breakers and fuses was another $500 and likely closer to $1000 if you hadn't been bargain hunting for a year.

So the panels are only roughly a third of my system costs, and if my peak use was in winter, I'd likely have a battery 2x the size I currently have.

I don't think many or any system has been put together any more frugally, and since my peak demand is in summer I'm working with very little reserve, luckly our heat comes with sun so I have a very minimal reserve. It may be as close to overall effective off grid use as you can get... I figure my cost per avoided electric use at about 26 cents a Kwh, my power company charges 10 cents a Kwh + the $25 per month. I figure over the year I will use or avoid 4Kwhs a day with out the A/C and 12-14 with the A/C or about 2500Kwh per year or about 20 cents a Kwh using the grid... It just can't be done cheaper than the grid.

I will also have the added cost of installing a wood stove, and replacing my central air with a mini split and a window unit total of $2-3000.

If you have a minimal life style and some silly $25 a month fee, it can be cost effective. I lived off 200 watts of solar for some fans, a laptop, a 13 watt cfl and some assorted entertainmant, small tv, radio, or mp3 player. No Fridge, used the one at work, No AC, wood stove for heat. It was cheaper than the grid, particularly since I had most of the pieces.

Then I decided I wanted A/C, I built a small cabin with 6" thick walls, built in the shade, with a small window unit, it cooled fine but for only 4-5 hours a night, enough to sleep, on 4 golf cart batteries, I also have a fridge at the cabin and I turned it off most summers for an extra hour or so of A/C, this system was also cost effective with a break even point of about 10-12 years out, I think I ran the numbers when I had 1700watts of panels.... but then I purchased the home and land...

If you happen to live in Central Missouri, I'd be glad to show you what I've done. If you live near Springfield MO, were the Electric Coop user fee is $32 a month, or somewhere similar, I understand your frustration. Grid tied solar can be cost effective, but off grid, with the grid running by the house, it takes a very odd situation to make the numbers work out. If your a prepper or just believe 'Peak Oil' happened yesterday and energy prices are just starting up, I understand and most everyone here will be glad to help you reach your goals.

icarus

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

Not to argue the point, but "peak oil" or rising energy prices (in the net" are a fact of life. Going off grid doesn't change that much if anything. We also have "peak lead" or "peak copper" or wht ever. What I am trying to say is that since the batteries represent about 1/2 the up front cost of an off grid system, and is a "wear item" it will have to be replaced, sooner or later (in many case with newbies, sooner than later), and the price of those replacements is likely to be higher in the future at about the same rate tags at energy goes up.

Let's assume for the sake of this conversation, you spend $1000 bucks on batteries, (enough for a moderate sized off grid application, of say 2 kwh/day). Let's also assume you have to replace them in an opptomistic ten years, that is $100/year in battery costs in constant dollars. Take the 2 kwh/day multiply it for a year and y of have 730 kwh. That that works out to about $.14/kwh just for the battery cost, about on a par with grid power in total. Now add in the PV cost, installation, CC and inverter costs, and it doesnt take a genius to see why the grid is such a bargain.

Now if the batteries fail in under ten years, say five, the per kwh cost just for batteries becomes ~$.28/kwh.

Then the question becomes, what is the logical price increase you can expect both for batteries and for grid utility power.

Like I said before, even with a $25-30 minimum connection charge, plus a kwh charge, the grid is a bargain, and is likely to remain so. Others may have other reasons for going off grid (aside from it not being available) but saving money is not one of them.

Tony

Photowhit

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

Well you are arguing the point! But I don't think you have a handle on Peak oil... at $300 a barrel the production from the panels becomes much greater asset.

The escaped cost of 2500 Kwh a year for my forklift battery even if a 10 year life, currently represents about a 10 cents a Kwh if energy costs double I would assume my it would be across the board for grid and my 20 cents per Kwh would increase to 40 and the battery at double the cost still represents 20 cents a Kwh, as this is the largest and most difficult to transport, I would expect the other elements would be less expedentally effected and my costs would go down in relation to energy, as the energy production with solar will be a fixed cost over 30-50 years.

Please note I expect 15 years out of my forklift battery and would not be surprised with 20. Also I had figured the replacement cost of the forklift to increase 40% in 15 years in my calculations.

By that time someone with a gun will come and take my system and I'll be back on my bike with a 10 watt panel, pulling mostly dead NiCd batteries out of walk way lights and a tin can stove... or more likely expired...lol

I'll agree the grid is cheaper, Heck it's the point I WAS MAKING!! ...If others could aquire a system as cheaply and understand peak oil for what it is, it maybe a bargain 20 year out... It may be that the battery can't be replaced and the grid is running 8 hours a day and I'm just trying to keep cells from shorting so I can use the solar during the day. We have some scary times ahead. I've been reading 'The Oil Age is Over' Matt Savinar makes me look like an optimist!

icarus

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

The problem with "peak oil" is that it is an elusive datum. Between fracking, shale oil, Nat. Gas alternatives etc I' don't see peak oil as the issue nor the real driver of ener cost increases. I guessing that CO2 is going to become the big driver
The fact is, the fracking and Nat. Gas boom has brought HUGE quantities of Nat gas on line, and that in turn has been driven down the price of elecricity (to the chagrin of those promoting RE for whqt ever reasons.) Just tonight I read a study in the economic effect of the coming boom in shale oil production which will serve as a huge damper on peak oil and peak oil pricing. The gist of it is that shale oil extraction has the potential to dramatically disrupt current energy supply markets, mostly on the down side price wise.
http://www.pwc.com/gx/en/oil-gas-energy/publications/shale-oil-changes-energy-markets.jhtml

The projections cited in the linke article suggest that even if OPEC were to reduce production to try to maintain a $100bbl bench mark, the base price of cried will remain in the $100 range through 2035.

As I said before, I am guessing (hoping) that the driver of the price is going to be placing a cost to the externalities of carbon fuels to cover thier true environmental costs. Bottom line, cheap fossil fuel translates to expensive alternatives in a relative sense.

I would make one more comment if we see significntly rising energy costs, then grid tie makes even more sense, as it's net pay off is likely to be even faster, but the issue with the cost of batteries will make off grid battery systems even more expensive per kwh...just saying'. Like I said before there may be a whole myriad of reasons why folks wish to go off grid, but saving money ain't one of them.

Enough of this dead horse, we should move on.

Tony

mtdoc

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

icarus wrote: »

The problem with "peak oil" is that it is an elusive datum. Between fracking, shale oil, Nat. Gas alternatives etc I' don't see peak oil as the issue nor the real driver of ener cost increases. I guessing that CO2 is going to become the big driver

I wish I could believe that was true. It may be too late.

The fact is, the fracking and Nat. Gas boom has brought HUGE quantities of Nat gas on line, and that in turn has been driven down the price of elecricity (to the chagrin of those promoting RE for whqt ever reasons.) Just tonight I read a study in the economic effect of the coming boom in shale oil production which will serve as a huge damper on peak oil and peak oil pricing. The gist of it is that shale oil extraction has the potential to dramatically disrupt current energy supply markets, mostly on the down side price wise.

An alternative view:-)

Photowhit

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

I'll let the horse be dead, but it is clear you didn't understand my post... I'm sorry, most do not... I've understood since the 70's and perhaps it's just hard to see or relate. Perhaps if I asked how much oil is in a bushel of wheat... I suspect mtdoc is covering how much oil does it take to bring a barrel to market, or the reason these old reserves are now worth producing. or why it's NOT going to be cheap oil. I can go on and on, it haunts me, it's the horse we all seem to ride with out understanding that when it's dead we're not far behind.

mtdoc

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

Photowhit wrote: »

Perhaps if I asked how much oil is in a bushel of wheat....

Understood Photowhit - but that's a whole 'nother can-o-worms. Suffice to say the planet will not support 7 billion of us once we've blown through what remains of the easily extractable, millions of years of stored solar energy we call oil. Assuming of course the planet is cool enough to be habitable once we've done that...

Dead horse indeed.

waynefromnscanada

Re: Getting ready to build my panels soon. Need lot of advice

I'm living off grid, have been for a few years now and loving it. However, I've not cut the pre-existing grid connection to the house as I realize I'm getting older and the time will come, if I live that long, when I'll no longer be able to tend to the off grid system, there's no one else around these parts who have a clue about it, and I may one day be very glad the grid is there to fall back on. If I was 30 years younger, yes those grid wires would be long gone. In the meantime, the electricity independence is awesome.
What did the whole system cost me as I built it up over the years, including the tiny hydro that keeps the batteries up at night? Probably $20.000 including controllers, batteries, inverters, etc, etc, etc. if I had only known back then, what I know now, I could have saved a ton of money. I now know that all I needed to do was stick a $300. panel on the roof and all my energy woes would have been over! Hahahahahaha
But all that aside, I'm now living in a situation where if the grid goes down, I can totally relax, feel great about my own situation, and say: "So What!?"