Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

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  • YehoshuaAgapao
    YehoshuaAgapao Solar Expert Posts: 280 ✭✭
    #62
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    Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

    Full creature comforts needs to include well saturation of TV (home theater), phone (cellphone ok), video games, and internet. This includes DVRs, computers, WiFi modems, cable modems, gadget chargers, TVs, Steroes, Playstations, etc.. This is about 10 amps with everyone home and 3 amps with nobody home (mostly DVRs, WiFi/Cable Modem) and computers). Lights add another 5 amps.
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  • mtdoc
    mtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    #63
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    Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    I don't know where things went haywire along the way. But we have trouble getting our off-grid home down to that level of daily consumption anymore.
    --
    Chris

    Yes but you're all electric aren't you! Nothing wrong with that ;) - especially given your RE resources but for those without electric ranges, water heaters, air conditioners, etc < 10 kWh a day is not hard to do. All it takes is energy efficient fridge and washers, CFL or LED lighting, laptop computers, etc. - oh and propane!
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  • mtdoc
    mtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    #64
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    Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.
    YehoshuaAgapao wrote: »
    Full creature comforts needs to include well saturation of TV (home theater), phone (cellphone ok), video games, and internet. This includes DVRs, computers, WiFi modems, cable modems, gadget chargers, TVs, Steroes, Playstations, etc.. This is about 10 amps with everyone home and 3 amps with nobody home (mostly DVRs, WiFi/Cable Modem) and computers). Lights add another 5 amps.

    Well, I suppose the definition of full creature comfort will vary...:roll:

    But as an example - for our family of 4 in a 3000 sq ft home with full sized fridge, 55" LED flat screen on 2-4 hrs/day, 2 laptop compuers. DSL with wifi, standard phone, various wall warts, CFL lighting and doing 1-2 loads of clothes and one load in the dishwasher - we easily come in under 10kWh.

    Right now it's 9:30 pm here and I just took this screenshot of my Wattplot program which records our daily load starting at midnight. The 6.95 kWh on right side ("load Kwh") is our electricity use today (excluding clothes dryer which at 240V is on a seperate circuit - though we could easily get a propane dryer or air dry our clothes).

    BTW our current load is 7 amps at 120V because our dishwasher is running


    Attachment not found.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #65
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    Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.
    mtdoc wrote: »
    Yes but you're all electric aren't you! Nothing wrong with that ;) - especially given your RE resources but for those without electric ranges, water heaters, air conditioners, etc < 10 kWh a day is not hard to do.

    When I tally up the kWh at the end of the year, about 30% of all the energy we produce goes into the water heaters.

    We are getting quotes on putting in solar hot water heat. We won't get much of anything from it in December/January. But according to our PV production at those times of year, and how it ramps in Feb/March, it should cut our wood consumption for home heating in February/March by about 35%.

    But the pump to pump the glycol thru the collectors is electric :D
    --
    Chris
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  • mtdoc
    mtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    #66
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    Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    When I tally up the kWh at the end of the year, about 30% of all the energy we produce goes into the water heaters.

    We are getting quotes on putting in solar hot water heat. We won't get much of anything from it in December/January. But according to our PV production at those times of year, and how it ramps in Feb/March, it should cut our wood consumption for home heating in February/March by about 35%.

    But the pump to pump the glycol thru the collectors is electric :D
    --
    Chris

    Chris,

    You ought to consider getting a Nyle Geyser heat pump hot water heater. This time of year when our utility room is at about 70 F, it heats up 50 gallons of water from 55 F to 120 F using only about 2 kWh. It would use less in your summer climate with hotter ambient temp.

    Here in the winter when our utility room is colder it uses more but I haven't yet quantified exactly how much more - it depends on the room temp which varies more in the winter. (I'm planning to install a heating coil in our wood stove for winter hot water)

    I considered installing direct solar hot water but with the price of PV so low it makes more sense to use the heat pump and get more PV.;)

    The nice thing about the Nyle Geyser versus the all in one, Geospring type heat pump water heaters is that you can replace your tank without having to pay for a new heat pump as well.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #67
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    Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.
    mtdoc wrote: »
    I considered installing direct solar hot water but with the price of PV so low it makes more sense to use the heat pump and get more PV.;)

    Ah, see? Now you're thinking like me. Using that electric stuff is addicting :cool:
    --
    Chris
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #68
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    Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    So what I'm saying is that when you design an off-grid system designing it with an over-sized generator, or designing to run the generator at anything less than 75% load is poor design.

    I understand what you are saying, but as I mentioned in the 'Generator Support' thread, there is no equipment to do what you do at a smaller scale. If I wanted to use generator support as efficiently as you do, I would need to find a 1000 watt conventional generator with electric start, and I would need to keep it warm in the winter. (I keep my eu2000 indoors and just put it outside the door when I need to use it).
    mtdoc wrote: »
    A modern, large, full creature comfort, energy efficient home that uses propane (and possibly wood) for heating and cooking can run at a baseline of 100-300 watts with only occasionally having short lived larger loads when running a washer, microwave or for fridge start up, etc. So with such a low baseline load (and total daily power need < 10kWh) an inverter generator makes perfect sense.

    Exactly right. My system is MUCH less efficient than Chris' system, but I use MUCH less generator fuel than Chris.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #69
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    Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

    Small scale it is hard to get everything you do in large scale, so you have to adapt. The Outback GFX is a great team with a EU 2000. I get about 7 + hrs to a Gallon and have charging, pass through and generator support. You set the generator input AC amps to 5-6 amps and turn the ECO throttle on. It'll sit there and run all day without lugging. The Outback will pick up all the surges. If you run a 5000 btu A/C it'll take all the starting surges of the compressor, off cycle it them returns back to full charging and pass through. The biggest issues I use to have is small appliances ( 1500 W range, coffee pot, microwave, Induction cooktop, toaster ), now Generator support picks them right up.

    If you want full power from the EU 2000, you turn the ECO off and switch to Grid 12-13 amps input on the Outback and you still have Generator support, pass through and charging but you use more fuel. The you get about 3 hrs to a gallon, but more power.

    Grid and Gen is like AC1 or AC2 it just 2 different amp settings incoming that are easy to switch back and forth to with one button push.

    AGS would be nice and can be had if your willing to spend the $$$. I find it easy enough to get around it.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #70
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    Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.
    vtmaps wrote: »
    I understand what you are saying, but as I mentioned in the 'Generator Support' thread, there is no equipment to do what you do at a smaller scale.

    Well, yes. I agree. For small systems those EU2000's are about ideal. Because, basically, they're the only game in town. when you need something below 2 kW.
    --
    Chris
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,448 admin
    #71
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    Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    Small scale it is hard to get everything you do in large scale, so you have to adapt. The Outback GFX is a great team with a EU 2000. I get about 7 + hrs to a Gallon and have charging, pass through and generator support. You set the generator input AC amps to 5-6 amps and turn the ECO throttle on. It'll sit there and run all day without lugging. The Outback will pick up all the surges. If you run a 5000 btu A/C it'll take all the starting surges of the compressor, off cycle it them returns back to full charging and pass through. The biggest issues I use to have is small appliances ( 1500 W range, coffee pot, microwave, Induction cooktop, toaster ), now Generator support picks them right up...

    BC4--That is just about the exact system I would see as being "practical" for setting up emergency power for my home. Enough power for a refrigerator and freezer, some lights, small sump pumps, etc...

    And ~$1,800 or so for GTFX inverter+mate...

    About the only thing still missing/of questionable practicality is the 600 VDC Schneider 80 amp MPPT charge controller + controller for ~$1,500 that I could switch to my 3.5 kWH GT configured array. Hmm... Getting close to my "pain point".

    But, currently, we have ~couple hour power outages once every few years--And it has been >50 years since the last multi-day outage (where I was raised on the coast).

    20-40 gallons of gasoline and a eu2000i genset still seems like a "good enough" solution right now (thinking of a "backup" eu2000i now :p to go with a Generac got a decade ago)...

    If our utility/state PUC kills the present power plan ($4.50 per month charges + ~$0.20 per kWH) to high minimum charges and low kWH chargers (~$50-$90 line charges and $0.06 per kWH), then the GTFX+Solar+Small generator starts making a lot of sense (convert to natural gas genset) and pull the plug.

    But with high monthly connection fees--That could make going to all electric interesting too (and drop the natural gas if that gets expensive)... Induction range, heat pump heating/hot water, etc... Have to wait and see.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #72
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    Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

    As in other "creature comfort" houses, my loads are spead around with very short occasional spikes. The best generator for me would be a very efficient 200-300W generator, which I could run 24/7 in winter time to feed background loads. No such thing .... :cry:
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #73
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    Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    As in other "creature comfort" houses, my loads are spead around with very short occasional spikes. The best generator for me would be a very efficient 200-300W generator, which I could run 24/7 in winter time to feed background loads. No such thing .... :cry:
    Actually there some small Fuel Cells that could do that, but having the fuel for them is still be a problem. If you had Natural gas as I beleive youi do that might be a direction I would look.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,448 admin
    #74
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    Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

    That is the problem--Thermal efficiency tanks as you go down in scale... You want 50% or better efficinecy--That 100 MWatt combined cycle natural gas turbine is very nice.

    You want 200-300 Watts 24x7... Have not seen much.

    Here is a 1-3 kW (electrical) micro turbine company:
    Based on the MTT 3kW micro turbine design, a 3 kW electrical / 15 kW thermal micro CHP system is being developed to replace heating boilers for small business and households. Major focus is given to low cost price, reliability, noise reduction and low maintenance.

    You are still only looking at 20% thermal efficiency (rest is "waste heat"--I could not use that much to heat my home/hot water)...

    A small prime rated 300 Watt prime rated genset + battery bank + inverter with generator support would probably just about run my home (if I kept solar array, just run the genset during poor weather). Connect that to natural gas and pull the electrical meter--I could live with that (if power prices keep climbing).

    I have wondered if you can take a Honda eu2000i or eu1000i and connect up an external oil tank+oil circulator and get improved service life and not have to replace oil every 25-50 hours. I guess that I would have to insulate the lines/tank/filter will to keep the temperatures up (so that I would not get condensation of water and byproducts in the oil).

    Heh... I put 300 watt prime power genset into Google and got this:

    http://www.amazon.com/dp/B009NWK8EE

    A 300 watt bicycle generator--Just need to get my two kids "busy". :p

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #75
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    Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.
    BB. wrote: »
    BC4--That is just about the exact system I would see as being "practical" for setting up emergency power for my home. Enough power for a refrigerator and freezer, some lights, small sump pumps, etc...

    And ~$1,800 or so for GTFX inverter+mate...

    <snip>

    -Bill
    The Outback GFX is about $1000 + a Mate in 12 v, 24v or 48v. I fixed it with plugs so I could move it around as necessary. The VGFX would work the same, I just didn't need 3500 watts, so the cost difference wasn't of interest to me, but it would work the same as the GFX with a Honda EU 2000. I have tried this many times before, but the missing piece was Generator Support on a small Inverter, the GFX has that.

    It's has to be seamless transition to get the Honda to stay with the incoming current limits, the GFX does that.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #76
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    Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    As in other "creature comfort" houses, my loads are spead around with very short occasional spikes. The best generator for me would be a very efficient 200-300W generator, which I could run 24/7 in winter time to feed background loads. No such thing .... :cry:

    NG - yes, there is such a thing. Not quite as efficient as an AC unit with larger baseline loads (you have to add electric water heating, etc., to use a small AC unit). But this was our prime power generator for better than 7 years.

    Attachment not found.

    --
    Chris
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #77
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    Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.
    BB. wrote: »
    About the only thing still missing/of questionable practicality is the 600 VDC Schneider 80 amp MPPT charge controller + controller for ~$1,500 that I could switch to my 3.5 kWH GT configured array.

    Bill, I think the MPPT80 requires like minimum 190V input. I was going to buy one until I saw that. Wouldn't work for us because our arrays are in three different places and I'd have to run "highline wires" from array to array to get the voltage up around 300 so it would work.

    Edit:
    And I also am not all that excited about working with 300+ VDC stuff. I have visions of big blue sparks jumping 3 feet from box to box in the utility room.
    --
    Chris
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,448 admin
    #78
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    Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

    Chris, yep... My array is ~300-400 Vmp VDC in normal weather because my system is pure Grid Tied. The high voltage XW charge controller would be perfect--Just put a manual 2 wire transfer switch (cut the GT inverter and power the XW off grid battery charger) and I would ge good to go.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #79
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    Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.
    BB. wrote: »
    Chris, yep... My array is ~300-400 Vmp VDC in normal weather because my system is pure Grid Tied. The high voltage XW charge controller would be perfect--Just put a manual 2 wire transfer switch (cut the GT inverter and power the XW off grid battery charger) and I would ge good to go.

    If you ever get any big blue sparks off that stuff, I sure hope you got the video camera handy so you can take a movie of it and post it on YouTube ;)
    --
    Chris
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #80
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    Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    If you ever get any big blue sparks off that stuff, I sure hope you got the video camera handy so you can take a movie of it and post it on YouTube ;)
    --
    Chris

    Not as dangerous as you might think since the switching could be done at zero current (panels are a current source).
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #81
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    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Not as dangerous as you might think since the switching could be done at zero current (panels are a current source).

    I'm scared to death of high voltage DC stuff.
    --
    Chris
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,448 admin
    #82
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    Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

    Just snap action (spring loaded) transfer switches (GT inverter, can shut off AC first, etc. to have zero current switching)... But, as a kid I played with a 1,500 Watt 15kV neon sign transformer for "fun" (from the old Hamm's brewery in San Francisco, a friend did the demolition on the sign/brewery)--Still have the transformer--Have not let my kids play with it yet :roll:)... So I am pretty used to pulling 4" arcs and not freaking out. About 1/2 way down this website:

    http://www.coroflot.com/billhannapple/montage-and-photo-compositing#

    The electrician doing the wiring on my GT inverter never did really care if the inverter was running or not when doing the wiring--I was the guy that cut the AC power to make sure it was off when servicing the DC (or AC) side.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,448 admin
    #83
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    400 volts of AC or DC is probably going to be similar if it hits a body...

    I am scared by the 10kAmp pole transformers and working the the drop to the house--Have a friend with the "official" work on 600 VAC gloves (leather outer work glove and rubber inner glove sets). A few 10's of amps of DC seems tame by comparison (of course a few tends of mill-amperes are are enough to kill).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #84
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    BB. wrote: »
    400 volts of AC or DC is probably going to be similar if it hits a body...

    Nope. AC switches polarity 60 times a second so it will make your muscles expand and contract. DC flowing positive to ground thru you to ground just makes your muscles contract and you can't let go of it or get thrown clear like AC will do. Once you get "grabbed" by DC power you will get cooked and there is no escape.
    --
    Chris
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  • mtdoc
    mtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    #85
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    Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    As in other "creature comfort" houses, my loads are spead around with very short occasional spikes. The best generator for me would be a very efficient 200-300W generator, which I could run 24/7 in winter time to feed background loads. No such thing .... :cry:

    Yes there is - it's called microhydro, :p

    When (if?)I get my microhydro set up installed (hopefully this year sometime) it should give me 200 watts 24/7 from October to May. This will take care of my background loads:cool:
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #86
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    Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.
    mtdoc wrote: »
    Yes there is - it's called microhydro, :p

    When (if?)I get my microhydro set up installed (hopefully this year sometime) it should give me 200 watts 24/7 from October to May. This will take care of my background loads:cool:
    Thank You for a idea, I have a water/air AC that has a out flow that would turn a micro hydro and could recapture some power.
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  • mtdoc
    mtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    #87
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    Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    Nope. AC switches polarity 60 times a second so it will make your muscles expand and contract. DC flowing positive to ground thru you to ground just makes your muscles contract and you can't let go of it or get thrown clear like AC will do.


    Actually, no. Muscle cells become tetanic (contract and don't release) at frequencies lower than 60hz (as low as 15 hz). Because flexor muscles in your arm are stronger than the extensor muscles, AC current can easily cause you to "grab on" and not be able to let go.

    DC tends to cause a single quick muscle spasm that throws the victim away from the source - not AC.

    The danger of DC is it's ability to sustain an arc and it's higher potential for thermal injury.

    Either AC or DC current when sent through the heart (hand to hand or hand to foot) can cause problems. AC tends to make the heart go into an abnormal heart rhythm - while DC stops the heart. If the DC current is brief it is not a problem - and can even "reset" the heart to a normal rhythm (that is how medical defibrillators work).

    - So if someone collapses after AC shock - just take those battery cables off the inverter and apply.. (just kidding - don't do this!)
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,448 admin
    #88
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    AC vs DC -- Yes some difference in how muscles contract... But even AC is dangerous.

    I have a machinist friend and his old company (don't know if state wide or not) pretty much stopped having even electricians work on "hot lines" (the old reason why you would hire a licensed electrician--so you did not have shutdown major production lines).

    As I understood, in the "olden times" if an electrician got bit--If he was able to stand up--nobody thought much of it. But after a few died hours or even day later... The procedure (OSHA? CalOSHA?, just local contractors???) was to send the guy to the emergency room if 120 VAC... And over night mandatory stay if 240 VAC or higher.

    We probably treat electrical shocks with less respect than we really should.

    If I am using transfer switches (hopefully 600 VDC)--I should not be in there grabbing any hot circuits. There is always the possibility of a sustained arc inside the transfer switch--But I am not too worried. At 10 amps and 300 VDC--It will take a while for anything to catch fire (I would be manually switching).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • mtdoc
    mtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    #89
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    Yeah- the biggest danger with smaller "shocks" is the potential for triggering a cardiac arrhythmia. Hence the adage to "work with one hand behind your back". Rubber soled shoes is also a good idea.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #90
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    I've been hit by both AC and DC over a fairly wide range of Voltages. The only thing I can say for sure is that either can really hurt.

    Probably explains the weird cardiac rhythm too.
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #91
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    Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

    To cut down on the DC switching arc, just glitch the AC, the inverter throttles back, and stops pulling DC, no current flow, no arc.
    You have 5 whole minutes to do it.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

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