Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

alyaz

Thought I would share some information I found before building my generator shed and purchasing my generator/fuel tank etc.

Generator shed buildings:
http://www.hardysolar.com/off-grid/off-grid-energy-system-4kw.html
http://www.cashmanequipment.com/UserFiles/Uploaded/cms/best-installation-practices-for-exhaust-systems.pdf
http://www.baldor.com/downloads/manuals/_downloads/2400-405.pdf


Diesel generators:
http://www.hardydiesel.com/
http://www.generatorsales.com/diesel-generators.asp
http://www.ecodieselcanada.com/


Fuel tanks:
http://www.tidytanks.com/productlist.html

techntrek

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

Be careful about buying a diesel genset for a home environment. If you will be using it for defined and steady loads most of the time then you'll be ok - such as using it to always charge a battery bank or run a well pump. Loads are usually defined in commercial environments (office equipment or factory equipment and lights are always the same) so diesel gensets can be sized for the load. Homes can fluctuate from a few hundred watts to a few thousand with an occasional peak of several times that. Diesel gensets usually need to be loaded to at least 50% to prevent "wet stacking", easily done at a business, very hard for most homes but possible for some off-grid homes.

In many cases an inverter genset is the best choice now-a-days.

alyaz

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

Wire Suppliers:

http://www.wesbellwireandcable.com/Romex/UFB6-2.html

alyaz

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

techntrek wrote: »

Be careful about buying a diesel genset for a home environment. If you will be using it for defined and steady loads most of the time then you'll be ok - such as using it to always charge a battery bank or run a well pump. Loads are usually defined in commercial environments (office equipment or factory equipment and lights are always the same) so diesel gensets can be sized for the load. Homes can fluctuate from a few hundred watts to a few thousand with an occasional peak of several times that. Diesel gensets usually need to be loaded to at least 50% to prevent "wet stacking", easily done at a business, very hard for most homes but possible for some off-grid homes.

In many cases an inverter genset is the best choice now-a-days.

We tried the Honda EU6500iu generator and with less than 500 hours it was in the shop for a major repair... Not amused. Got it repaired (warranty covered most of it - but left us pretty nevous about its future) and it will be up for sale once the diesel gen is in place...

TheBackRoads

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

alyaz wrote: »

Wire Suppliers:

http://www.wesbellwireandcable.com/Romex/UFB6-2.html

Finally a place to buy welding wire for my inverter!

techntrek

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

Again, just make sure your system is designed to load up the diesel genset most of the time. Your typical house loads won't do that.

alyaz

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

techntrek wrote: »

Again, just make sure your system is designed to load up the diesel genset most of the time. Your typical house loads won't do that.

copy, thanks. the gens out this way are typically used to charge the batteries/equalize the batteries/or to charge the batteries while a few loads of wash and the vacuum in going, mostly in the winter months.

alyaz

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

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Finally got the diesel generator installed. Thought I would share a few pictures, for anyone in the process of building or planning a gen shed.

I built an intake vent -with baffles and insulation - for cold intake and an exhaust vent - with baffles and insulation, for the radiator. I built the vents on the outside of the shed so as not to take any interior space. I poured a cement foundation for the gen and laid heavy rubber matting on the floor to help with sound. The walls and ceiling are insulated with 'Roxul safe and sound.' I used Armstrong ceiling panels on the walls to further help sound deadening. The exhaust pipes, muffler, and resonator are all wrapped with heat tape and a wall thimble was used to run the exhaust safely through the wall. I ran all the wires and fuel lines through conduit to keep things tidy. And finally the new battery was placed into an insulated wooden box.

It all turned out well and the noise level is barely audible from the house. A fun but time consuming project

Ralph Day

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

Your build sounds just about like mine. You might find, as I did, that a little more room between the generator and the walls would have been advisable. Not for heat buildup, but for ease of access (changing oil, maintenance etc). Trying to get 2 people working on the unit can be a problem in my shed.

Ralph

alyaz

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

Ralph Day wrote: »

Your build sounds just about like mine. You might find, as I did, that a little more room between the generator and the walls would have been advisable. Not for heat buildup, but for ease of access (changing oil, maintenance etc). Trying to get 2 people working on the unit can be a problem in my shed.

Ralph

I totally agree. The shed was already there (used to house the Honda eu6500iu) but in a perfect world it would have been bigger. I gave myself a bit more room on the 'oil change' side of the gen.

TheBackRoads

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

What kind of gen is that?

alyaz

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

it's a Perkins...

oil pan 4

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

I work on diesel generators from 6 to 600kw.
My larger one happens to be a perkins.

The best way to prevent wet stacking is to change the oil and keep a some what clean air filter on it. The generators I find that are wet stacked typically have been ran for many months maybe even years with no servicing, have an air filter with a 1/4 inch of caked on dirt and being left to run at no load for many hours and most of them consume a lot of oil.

alyaz

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

oil pan 4 wrote: »

I work on diesel generators from 6 to 600kw.
My larger one happens to be a perkins.

The best way to prevent wet stacking is to change the oil and keep a some what clean air filter on it. The generators I find that are wet stacked typically have been ran for many months maybe even years with no servicing, have an air filter with a 1/4 inch of caked on dirt and being left to run at no load for many hours and most of them consume a lot of oil.

Perkins service manual calls for oil changes every 500 hours. Seems like an awfully long time between oil changes to me? I was thinking of initially changing it at 50 hours then maybe every 300 hours?

ChrisOlson

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

alyaz wrote: »

We tried the Honda EU6500iu generator and with less than 500 hours it was in the shop for a major repair... Not amused.

Inverter generators are best suited to camping and such at light loads. They are quite inefficient when required to run at rated load for off-grid battery charging systems and I have seen several EU3000 Honda's with failed inverters from running at or near rated load in hot weather.

We also did a recent generator upgrade. We had a Generac EcoGen and replaced it with a Honda EM4000SX. In our climate the amount of energy input required to start a diesel or LP engine at temps under -10F is too great, and the generator only auto-starts at other times during the year for peak load management. So with the primary considerations being cold weather starting, and the ability of the generator to accept rated load with a 15 second warmup for peak load managment, we went with gasoline-fueled.

Our inverters have the ability to load share with the generator for peak loads so we don't need a large kW generator. It was difficult to keep the EcoGen at full load where it runs the most efficient, even for load start amps, so we went with a smaller unit. The new generator required a new generator shed and I have photos of my gen shed project here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/110979388690716770927/HondaGenerator
--
Chris

BB.

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

Chris, neat little setup... How did you handle autostart and control of choke (or alternative) for cold starts?

Few of the non-autostart gensets (I have seen) support the choke and other nice autostart features for reliable operation.

-Bill

ChrisOlson

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

BB. wrote: »

Chris, neat little setup... How did you handle autostart and control of choke (or alternative) for cold starts?

Bill, the new Honda EM-series deluxe generators now have an electronically controlled iGX engine. It has computerized ignition and the engine's ECU is directly above the carb where it also controls throttle and choke. The key switch completes two different circuits in the "ON" position - one for the ignition module and the other for the engine ECU.

As far as wiring it up, the Trace GSM has two relays. The Run relay Common and NO terminals are used to turn on 12V power from the genset battery to the ignition, and I also had to install an additional relay on the genset that uses that 12V signal to enable the ECU. The third wire is the crank signal.

It was very easy to wire up. Not quite as simple as our old EcoGen with the two-wire start. But frankly the Honda is twice the generator the Generac ever thought of being. That little EM4000SX with the iAVR system where it maintains voltage and freq at 25% overload for 10 seconds easily rivals the EcoGen's surge power for starting air compressor, well pump, etc..
--
Chris

BB.

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

Hmm... Looking at the Honda site it is a bit hard to figure out which is a EM vs an EM deluxe (and if the inverter versions are deluxe or not, is it the "X" in the suffix?). But sure looks like it it worth more research.

-Bill

ChrisOlson

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

The "EM-series S" are the standard units that do not have electric start. The ones with the "SX" suffix are the deluxe version with the iGX engine. The ones that have an "iS" suffix are inverter units. The inverter units and standard "S" suffix generators use the old GX-series commercial engine.

On the website they don't really cover the "S" standard units' features - the just "SX" deluxe ones. However, when I went to the dealer to get it, I had to specify that I wanted the SX because the price on the rope-start "S" models is a lot cheaper. I think they call the "S" units the "economy" generator in the dealer book.

Although there is a fair amount of market speak here, this is a YouTube video that explains a lot of the features of the new deluxe series generators
http://youtu.be/qSG7wbAOMRw

I should also mention that there is a remote control plug on the SX generators. However, that ended up not being useful for an off-grid auto-start system. The Honda remote control box has a start button, a stop button and a pilot light to show that the generator is operating. It requires that the key switch be left in the "ON" position for it to work, which places a few mA draw on the genset battery because the ECU and digital ignition module are powered up all the time.

I removed the key switch, studied the wiring diagram in the manual, ohm'd the switch out to make sure I had it figured out - then spliced into the wires coming out the switch to tie it into the GSM. By splicing into the wires at the switch, it exactly duplicates what the key switch does, so there is no draw on the genset battery in standby.

In the inverter Generator Starting Details Menu, I have pre-crank set at zero seconds, max crank time 3 seconds, post crank 20 seconds (before it attempts another starting sequence). Basically the starter just bumps the engine and it's running. The inverter senses voltage and disengages the starter. In very cold weather I may have to adjust the crank seconds - I won't know that until it gets below zero here this winter. But at -20F I suspect it will take several intake strokes with the choke closed to get the mixture rich enough to fire, so it may require more cranking time.

The auto-choke on it does not just start it and slam the choke full open. It must use temperature, time, or some other factor to determine how fast to open the choke. I took the air cleaner element out and watched it during a Load Start cycle with the engine cold. As soon as it starts it opens the choke partly, but not all the way. For Load Start I have warmup set to 15 seconds and when the inverters load the generator it doesn't miss a beat, and it takes about 30-45 seconds for the choke to open all the way.
--
Chris

inetdog

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

ChrisOlson wrote: »

The ones with the "SX" suffix are the deluxe version with the iGX engine.
--Chris

And to save you from watching all the way through the video, a feature of the iGX engine is an automatic choke. Great for remote electric starting in all weather as well as manual electric starting for someone who does not know how to use a manual choke properly. :-)

The current transformer (CT) in the regulator/governor allows the governor mechanism to respond instantly to increased load without having to sense voltage drop or rpm change.

ChrisOlson

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

The thing I like about it is that it puts out utility grade power without having an inverter on it. Inverter generators are very nice because they put out clean power and can idle down to save fuel at light loads, having a permanent magnet alternator instead of a conventional wound field. But for off-grid systems where the auto-start will start the generator for one of two reasons - either load amps or low battery - an inverter generator is a bad choice. Inverter generators run least efficient at full load. Conventional generators run most efficient at full load.
--
Chris

techntrek

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

ChrisOlson wrote: »

... Inverter generators run least efficient at full load. Conventional generators run most efficient at full load.

That is incorrect, all types of generators are more efficient the more you load them up. Below are the numbers I just pulled from Honda's site for their 2 kw inverter-genset model and 6500 kw inverter-genset model, plus the numbers for my conventional 12 kw Generac LPG. To the far right are my own calculations of watts per gallon of fuel. In both cases you get more watts per gallon at full load.


Honda 2000: .27 gallons/hour at full load (1600 watts), .11 gallons/hour at 1/4 load (400 watts). 5925 watts/gallon at full load, 3636 watts/gallon at 1/4 load.
Honda 6500: .95 gallons/hour at full load (5500 watts), .32 gallons/hour at 1/4 load (1375 watts). 5789 watts/gallon, 4296 watts/gallon at 1/4 load.
Generac 12 kw: 2 gallons at full load (12000), 1.5 gallons at half load (6000). 6000 watts/gallon at full load, 4000 watts/gallon at half load.

For comparison, my Prius+UPS setup (see my signature) uses about .13 gallons/hour with approximately a 400 watt load. So about the efficiency of the 2000 but with almost the same operational specs of the 6500.

Cariboocoot

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

What he means is that (all mitigating factors being equalized) at full load conventional generators are more efficient than inverter-generators . As the loading decreases the advantage goes in favour of the inverter-generators because they don't have to maintain RPM to maintain Voltage & frequency. This fact has been proven many times by those of us with years of experience with both types of generators and has been iterated on the forum over and over.

The tricky part is equalizing 'all mitigating factors' because no two generators are alike. There aren't 3kW 'Brand A' generators available in both conventional and inverter type for a side-by-side comparison. It is possible to have two conventional or two inverter generators of the same kW rating with different fuel efficiencies because they are made by different companies and have different engines. By the same token, two identical generators (make and model) could have different efficiencies in side-by-side testing because of variations between the two (but it should be close). Some engines simply are more fuel efficient than others of the same HP/size.

It isn't really fair to compare different size gens to one another and extrapolate efficiencies of type from that data. A large generator is going to use more fuel because it has to be bigger over-all, including greater mass of the generator portion which requires more power to move it.

ChrisOlson

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

That would be inconsistent with what I have tested. Some time back I tested several inverter generators alongside conventional generators with a fixed load and measured fuel consumption all powering the same load. In my tests, the inverter generators invariably hit a peak then dropped off in efficiency at full rated load, while the conventional generators' efficiency continued to improve with loading. One of the generators I tested was a Yanmar diesel conventional type, which was the most efficient of all them. The inverter generators were quite impressive at lower outputs, usually exceeding a conventional generator's efficiency at partial loading.

I could dig up that testing data if interested. Generators are one of my interests because I worked for Cummins as a mechanical engineer on gensets and engines for 19 years.
--
Chris

ChrisOlson

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

What he means is that (all mitigating factors being equalized) at full load conventional generators are more efficient than inverter-generators . As the loading decreases the advantage goes in favour of the inverter-generators because they don't have to maintain RPM to maintain Voltage & frequency

This is pretty much what my testing showed re: the inverter-type generators. I concluded that for an off-grid power system where the generator is used only for battery charging with an inverter-charger that an inverter generator could possibly provide higher efficiency. Initially, when the battery bank is in bulk charging it will probably run at full load and be less efficient than a conventional.

But as we all know, as the internal resistance in those batteries comes up, the amount of charging current required is reduced in absorb. This is where the inverter type can make up for what it lacks in full-load efficiency. It can start idling down as the load is reduced where a conventional has to maintain rpm.

For off-grid systems where the generator is used for Load Start Amps (auto-start where the generator takes over heavy loads to reduce load on the inverters and bank), I think an inverter type is a bad choice because it's going to spend more time off the peak of its efficiency curve. This was, in fact, one of the problems with our EcoGen - it was too big for us, even for Load Start. All the generator really has to do it take the top edge off the loads for a Load Start situation and the inverters have no problem delivering the balance of the power. It was difficult to keep the EcoGen loaded at full load, and hence it was not the most efficient generator we could use.

The Honda EU2000/EU3000 are impressive little generators. Cummins also builds the QD (Quiet Diesel) series of inverter generators in larger sizes that are quite impressive. But again, considering a Cummins QD6000 that burns 1 gallon of fuel/hr at rated load, it is pretty inefficient at full load compared to even a gasoline fueled conventional one at the same load.

It is an interesting topic - I have seen the Perkins units like shown in this thread. I don't know what the size is of the one shown here, but it would nice to collect some fuel consumption data on one of those to see how they compare.
--
Chris

ChrisOlson

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

BB. wrote: »

Few of the non-autostart gensets (I have seen) support the choke and other nice autostart features for reliable operation.

Bill, I have searched and searched and can't find what I'm looking for now - but I saw an article on the internet someplace where a fellow hooked up a Honda EU3000 for an auto-start system. He used an electric door lock actuator for a car door to operate the choke. It was the first auto-start installation I have ever seen for a Honda EU-series on an off-grid system. The generator was in a shed and he had ductwork hooked up to it for the exhaust and hot air outlet on the generator. It was a really cool installation.

I wish I would've book marked it because he provided all the details of the wiring to the ignition switch also. I don't remember for sure what controller he used, but I think it was an Atkinson.
--
Chris

vtmaps

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

ChrisOlson wrote: »

but I saw an article on the internet someplace where a fellow hooked up a Honda EU3000
<snip>
The generator was in a shed and he had ductwork hooked up to it for the exhaust and hot air outlet on the generator.

This fellow didn't have autostart for his EU3000, but he did have the ductwork:
http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?15396
I wonder if he is still alive...

--vtMaps

ChrisOlson

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

That's not the one I saw, but that does make me chuckle a bit

It seems the one I'm looking for was in an installation on a mountain in Colorado at about 6,500 feet elevation, or something like that. I wish I could find it because I'm sure a lot of off-grid folks with EU3000's would find it interesting. It may have been on YouTube where I saw it too, but I have run out of Google search ideas to find it again.
--
Chris

techntrek

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

What he means is that (all mitigating factors being equalized) at full load conventional generators are more efficient than inverter-generators . As the loading decreases the advantage goes in favour of the inverter-generators because they don't have to maintain RPM to maintain Voltage & frequency. This fact has been proven many times by those of us with years of experience with both types of generators and has been iterated on the forum over and over.

Yes, the inverter gensets are more efficient at low loads, that has been beat to death on this forum and everywhere else. I preach the same thing not only for the commercially-available inverter-gensets but also for my Frankenstein Prius setup. I never said otherwise.

But I disagree that at full load the conventional gensets have much of an edge. I just found the same Honda 6500 genset non-inverter, same specs including the engine model number. I've pulled the numbers from above for the inverter genset down here for comparison. Doesn't get much more side-by-side than this.

Conventional 6500: .89 gallons/hour full load 6179 watts/gallon.
Inverter 6500: .95 gallons/hour at full load 5789 watts/gallon.

The conventional is slightly more efficient at full load.

ChrisOlson

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

techntrek wrote: »

Conventional 6500: .89 gallons/hour full load 6179 watts/gallon.
Inverter 6500: .95 gallons/hour at full load 5789 watts/gallon.

The conventional is slightly more efficient at full load.

We looked at those units. The inverter generator does not have the surge power that the conventional has. Our generator is used primarily for load management because we have 240 volt appliances (range, clothes dryer, water heater and well pump), plus 240 volt machine tools in my shop. Our generator rarely runs for battery charging. But it will run about 400 hours per year for load management - and it should be running at full rated load so it reduces the load on the inverters and batteries properly for the hour or so that the heavy load is on, and runs at the best efficiency.

At the above numbers for fuel consumption at 5.5 kW rated load for both units, the difference in fuel consumption over a year's time would be 24 gallons of gasoline @ 400 hours. Which is $85 in additional fuel cost over a year's time at today's prices without the road tax. With the road tax it would be a difference of $94 in our state.

Another consideration for inverter style is that I have seen several EU3000's with burned out inverters. The ones I have seen are used primarily in stock car trailers and tractor pulling rigs, and they are used at full load continuously for several hours running lights and AC units in the trailer, air compressors, and engine block heaters to heat up diesels in pulling tractors for competition. One tractor pulling guy I know burned out three of them in June and July and the dealer refused to cover the last burnout under warranty because he is supposedly "abusing" the generator by running it at continuous rated load for hours on end.

What scares me about inverter generators is that if one fails out of warranty it will cost just about as much to fix it as a new generator costs. I can fix a conventional unit myself. And even fixing a conventional generator made by Honda is not going to be cheap because Honda is really proud of the parts they sell for their equipment.
--
Chris

BB.

Re: Generators, Gen sheds, Gen fuel systems, etc.

If they are running conventional A/C and compressors/etc... I wonder if they are exceeding the VA rating of the genset (although, that should still pop the genset breaker).

-Bill