Which inverter for 12V??

ywhic

I am looking at:

Xantrex Pro SW1000 Sine Inverter $250-270
Display Number Meter, 1 Double GFI outlet, 0.6amp draw

Ramsond Sunray 1500 Sine Inverter $260
Display Bar Meter, 3 15 Amp Outlets, 1 year warranty <1amp draw

PowerBright APS1000-12 Sine Inverter $270-290
LED indictators, 2 outlets, 1 year warranty.. <1amp draw

I'd like to get as much WATTS out as I can and do this once.. I have a budget of like $275 on this..

I'd prefer a SINE inverter..

I noticed the SAMLEX models.. but the casings look like the PowerBrite ones..

What do you folks recommend or would you say use 2 inverters??

1 HI-OUTPUT Modified Sine and 1-300 Watt Pure Sine??

westbranch

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

check out Cotek , they make some Samlex models

ywhic

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

westbranch wrote: »

check out Cotek , they make some Samlex models

They have the similar item.. Dual GFI outlets.. its just one GFI outlet.. (and one rest button for both outlets)..

I'd prefer at least 2 separate(d) outlets..

The Samlex SSW-350-12A looks good.. (pic shows 2 outlets)..

and the Samlex SSw-600-12A also..

ywhic

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

Maybe a Xantrex Pro SW600 Pure Sine $160 would be better, and then a normal modified sine larger wattage inverter for normal wiring??

Maybe a Whislter Pro-1600W for $120... use that for non-essential devises.. and the pure sine Xantrex for computer and TV??

Anyone have suggestions on which way to go?? or should I just stick with the Xantrex Pro SW1000 (Pure Sine)??
(Or upgrade my order to the Ramsond 1500/3000 Pure Sine $260??)

icarus

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

Suresine 300, true sine wave inverter. Very efficient, will surge to ~600 watts for a long time. Off grid the is seldom much use for a really large inverter.

Tony

ywhic

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

icarus wrote: »

Suresine 300, true sine wave inverter. Very efficient, will surge to ~600 watts for a long time. Off grid the is seldom much use for a really large inverter.

Tony

I understand.. but I have a 12x24 cabin that I need to have enough JUICE to get around it.. if needed..

I am totally off grid by 8 miles.. so I need (I feel) some power to run maybe a small dorm fridge (on timer).. maybe a small 4500 BTU A/C for a few hours.. I plan on running CEL or CFL bulbs.. and only a laptop otherwise..

Cariboocoot

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

ywhic wrote: »

I understand.. but I have a 12x24 cabin that I need to have enough JUICE to get around it.. if needed..

I am totally off grid by 8 miles.. so I need (I feel) some power to run maybe a small dorm fridge (on timer).. maybe a small 4500 BTU A/C for a few hours.. I plan on running CEL or CFL bulbs.. and only a laptop otherwise..

Okay, I don't know what the size of the cabin has to do with the size of the inverter. Our cabin is 30 x 40 and the inverter output averages less than 200 Watts. The only reason I have a big inverter is because of the necessary water pumps; if everything comes on at once the surge demand is wicked.

Small dorm 'frige and small A/C unit are both power-sucking monsters that will require far more system than you've got. They'd shut down even the largest inverter on your choice list.

ywhic

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

How do the folks online start there 5000 BTU with a 2500 Watt inverter??

I know the surge is like 1200 watts.. And I know it will kill the 'bank' quick..

But if I can get a new low EER A/C started on LOW fan, then switch to LOW AIR.. thats all I would want.. and its like 550 watt once its running..

I figured a large (and good quality with .6 amp draw) Xantrex SW Pro 1000 would be a good 1x & 1st choice..

The Morningstar SureSine 300 is appealing and the price of $215 (or so) is great.. and it hooks right to 110V panel and such..

I'd rather have EXCESS on-tap if needed though..

Before I even try an A/C I will get a 440ah battery bank.. intially I will be at a 225ah bank..

Another person suggested a $200 2500W 'stackable' and said they've use theirs for over a year thus far with 0 issues..

I just want to do it once and correct..

FWIW.. My cabin will become my fulltime home.. so its just not a weekend thing either..

Cariboocoot

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

Of the inverters mentioned I can only speak to the Xantrex, Samlex, and Morningstar as being good choices. I've never heard of the others, much less have any experience with them.

Different inverters have different surge characteristics, not just ratings. For instance the smaller Samlex units actually are not recommended for motors because they have basically zero surge capacity. Other inverters will have ratings 2X the run Wattage, but might be for very short period of time. In rare instances you may actually get the manufacturer to provide accurate info which may show a declining surge rate available over time.

I'd suggest you go with a quality small inverter, and save up your money. When it comes time you can add a second, larger inverter to run the refrigeration equipment when you can afford it. This second inverter can either be connected to the common (expanded) battery bank or possibly a whole new system constructed for high-current loads (preferably using 24 Volts instead of 12).

One thing about buying off-brand inverters: if it fails, will the company still be there to warrant and service it?

Wxboy

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

I vote for the Xantrex but only because I have the 2000 watt version of it and I like it. I don't have any experience with the other brands.

waynefromnscanada

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

As mentioned by Icarus, the Morningstar TS 300 is an excellent inverter for all but really big loads. One of mine has been on 24/7 for about 4 years now, powering everything but my water pump, electric fry pan, microwave etc. For those larger loads I have a Xantrex Pure Sine 1800. If your DC supply is limited, like most of us have, then two different inverters are the way to go if you occasionally have huge, yes I said huge, loads like that air conditioner you mentioned. The TS-300 has only a small idle current draw compared to the big ones, thus the big ones are only ever on when there is actually an immediate need for it.
Icrus and Cariboocoot in particular, I know have extensive knowledge and experience in this area, and I've been using off grid solar etc for over 10 years, so we do have some idea of which we speak. But it's you're money, your decisions to make. Most of us have learned many things the hard way in our early of grid years. Good luck.

Photowhit

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

I think you had a 1500 watt inverter on your list and I've run a window unit on a 1400 watt inverter. My system to run and AC (my goal) was originally 1000 watt array feeding 4 golf cart batteries, with this, in Missouri we have sun with our heat and I could run the A/C for 3-4 hours at night, with it cycling on and off, and feel comfortable I wasn't drawing down my battery past 50%, with my other odds and ends. I could run it for a couple hurs once the battery reach float. I'm in a well insulated cabin 10x16 cabin with 6" walls, built in the shade in Missouri. I didn't see shade in your photo. So think ice box thick walls and a smaller room, even at 1000 watt array.

In a smaller battery bank, and mine was already too small, things work against you, the high drain runs the battery voltage down which means your drawing even more amperage for the same watts.

If you reread about my experiences, I had a similar 1400watt inverter, to what they are now selling 2500 watt version, and after about 1 year the fan went out. I do feel it was a good value for what I got, and it did run my AC. I may not have mentioned it but it also had a high voltage shut down at 30 volts so when I equalized it did shut down, not a big issue.

Also on a 1000 watt array, I shut down my fridge over the summer! To paraphrase Kevin Smith, "...No sin greater than central air" or a window shaker for my little place.

Photowhit

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

Let me reiterate Shade made my AC possible. I live in a fairly modern Modular home, I turned on the AC a couple days ago about noon, when it was over 80 inside. I shut everything down here and when to my cabin, when I walked in about 4, outside temps near 90, it was in the low 70's. It was built in the shade. Modular is in the sun mostly.

ywhic

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

My plan was to run possibly an 5K A/C in the 1-3pm window of the day.. the hottest part..
The A/C rating is lets say 550watts AC continuos. for 2 hours.. which would equate to 55 amps per hour in AC land.. total of 110 AH being used (loosly)... The 1p-3p time frame would still allow my panels to get the afternoon sunlight before nightfall..

Plan includes 4 140watt panels @ 7.7 amps each... 12vx7.7ax4panels =369.6 watts per hour.. x 5 hour avg.. = 1848 watts per day..
FWIW.. during the spring (was just there 2 weeks ago) sun up was 7:30amp and set at like 6pm..

The bank would be 4 T105's @ 220ah, 2 in series then 2 pairings of those to get 12v.. 440ah..

This setup would use 110 (roughly) AH from the 440ah bank.. which = about 25.5% of the stored charge..

If I did the simple math right...??

Of course now I see another 220ah battery setup should be added as not to WIPE my battery away.. and bring it to 660ah..

Cariboocoot

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

550 Watts AC * 2 hours = 1100 Watt hours AC. Convert to DC @ 85% efficiency = 1294 Watt hours / 12 Volts = 108 Amp hours. This does not include the inverter's power consumption.
That's roughly 25% of your total battery bank, meaning it will be depleted in 2 hours without input from panels.
It will draw approximately 54 Amps DC while running, or about 12% discharge rate which is pretty high.
Your 560 Watt array will provide at best 290 Watts AC, or slightly better than half the demand for the air conditioning.

The start-up surge of the A/C could collapse the batteries (electrically) and/or cause the inverter to fault and shut down instantly.

This is so close to the operating edge that even if it does work it will cut the life of those batteries down by years (depending on how many days you run the air). None of that includes the draw of any other loads either.

Adding a third string of batteries to bring the total up to 660 Amp hours will definitely help, as it will reduce the discharge rate to approximately 8%. But your charge rate from those panels will drop to about 5%. Also, you must be very careful about wiring three parallel strings of batteries to keep the current flow even; it's bus bar time.

ywhic

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Also, you must be very careful about wiring three parallel strings of batteries to keep the current flow even; it's bus bar time.

I figured 25.5% of the 440ah bank.. but yup.. thanks for the BUS BAR tip.. I'll probably need that..

Usage may run less than the 2 hours.. maybe an hour and a half..

I figured the costs.. 520 watts worth of panels to fit my 30 Amp Charge Controller maximum..

The Xantrex SW1000 Pro (my choice standing thus far) is pretty efficent.. thinking I will be more like 90%.. but who knows..

The costs as reviewed about 50x in the last 2 weeks..

$533 Controller/Inverter/Wires/Breakers/Fuses..
(2AWG batt to inverter 1.5', 8AWG from Combiner to Controller 15', 8AWG from Controller to Battery 4' max.)
$536 ($134 x 4) for 4 220ah batteries (local)
$570 for the 3 panels 140 watts each
$150 for the 1 panel 100 watts
$1800 (est)

Photowhit

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

I'm worried that my ability to make it work in Missouri in the shade is giving you some encouragment.

Lets talk loads. Your in Texas in the sun, if you have a 12x24 barn building with R13 walls, your talking about more area to cool, and and more resistance to cooling. Take a generator out there and borrow an AC, and try it. I bet if it cools off it will heat back up in an instant. I have R20+ walls lots of insulation in the floor, insulated windows and door, with good seals, and I push the limits very hard here.

What are you planing to do for a living out in the wilds?

ywhic

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

I have plans to continue to sell firearms parts on the internet.. maybe get my FFL for a shop in town (22 miles away)..

I'm also an NRA instructor and the local Sheriff said he would have no issues with me have a range on my 11 acres..

I also have about 12+ years as a PI and Security consultant.. 4 years in the IT field. and 2 years in the Financial Advising.. 6 years in Warehousing..

2manytoyz

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

I'd recommend getting the Xantrex Prowatt SW 2000 instead. Best price I can find at the moment is $323.88: http://www.marinepartssource.com/newdetails.asp?mfgno=806-1220&pnumber=XT8061220&mfg=XANTREX&desc=2000%20Watt%2012%20Volt%20Dc%20Prowatt%20Sw%20Inverter

It's not that much more than the 1000W model, but it will most certainly eliminate any worries of being able to restart a 5000 BTU A/C unit that has a head pressure built up.

I have a 5000 BTU A/C unit, purchased at Home Depot. It's a cheap Goldstar brand. Under $100.

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The startup current is significant, but so fast most meters can't capture the "In-Rush".

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Through testing, I've found my Yamaha EF2400iS generator can supply over 50 Amps surge. I've also discovered my Xantrex 1800W Prosine inverter can start an air compressor (barely) that my generator could not! My inverter is connected with fat cables to a 900AH battery bank.

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The actual running current is only 4.9A, pretty close to the 600W rating on the A/C data plate. This is with the blower on high, and the compressor engaged.

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When the compressor cycles off, fan still on high, the current drops to 0.2A.

FWIW, I have an older Xantrex Prosine 1800W inverter, and the newer Xantrex Prowatt SW2000 inverters.

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During a major outage, I'll keep one room cool at night via an inverter and battery power. During the day, I'll use a combination of solar and a 75A Iota charger powered from the generator, to replenish the battery bank... and run the A/C unit directly from the generator in the meantime.

Photowhit

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

ywhic wrote: »

I have plans to continue to sell firearms parts on the internet.. maybe get my FFL for a shop in town (22 miles away)...

Your just very exuberant, wish I had that much excitment!. I was worried you were a young person trying to 'get away from it all'. I live somewhat rural and see people every year that, think being 'out in the woods' fit their lifestyle, but retreat to suburbia.

White shingles and light colored cabin will help with heat gain. might look into some alternatives to the stick built cabin, a berm shelter, or thick adobe walls, or sand bag construction. Ramed earth blocks, or even 'earthship' type homes are all worth a google search. Some can be cheap for people who have the time to invest, but not the capitol. All in some way or another use the coolness of the earth 4 feet under our feet, to help cool(and warm).

Might check with some of your local customers and see if some one has a dozer or backhoe and willing to trade out services. pour a slab block up the outside and push dirt up against the walls (More complicated thasn that, but you get the idea).

ywhic

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

Its already built.. about 2 weeks back.. 12x24.. no windows yet just 2 skylites for natural light and a roof end vent..




Its Country Club tanish/grayish..

Next trip out will be solar and plumbing.. the good news for the PV is no trees.. not so good for me.. LoL

Photowhit

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

If it's 2x4 construction, might consider adding another 4 inches inside frame for 8" walls if your serious about the AC, and maybe just a small room inside as a window unit would have a hard time with that volume.

Might try craigslist for insulated windows.

Here's mine (since I had photobucket open for a PM.) even in the dead of winter it's almost all in shade, and I did the white shingles which might have been over kill for me as they are a bit green now without the sun to kill stuff off.

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ywhic

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

I'll be getting 3 insulated house size windows when I get out there for permanent.. just trying to prevent breakin/breakage abit..

The back 10' of the 12' x 24' bottom floor will have a loft up top with a 5'6" height (for 2 beds).. the bottom part of that area will max out at about 6'4".. I may put the window A/C in the smaller back room that will be there.. which will be 10' x 8.5' (bathroom will be on the back left of the building 9' x 42").. a curtain pulled across the 1st rafter before the back room 'opens up' to the front area may be a good idea too.. keep the A/C in that 10' x 8.5' area with 6'4" ceiling..

My digital camera made the exterior color dark and brownish.. heres another pic.. my solar panel will be on POSTS on the LEFT side rear corner.. My 10 y.o. son is helping with the floor plan.. and we built a small model of it up here in PA..


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petertearai

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

I would not go the 12 volt way , but go 24 or 48 volts.

ywhic

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

petertearai wrote: »

I would not go the 12 volt way , but go 24 or 48 volts.

2 panels at 210w @ 24v.. works to 24vx7.11amp= 170.64 x 5 hours = 853.2 x 2 = 1706... for $800 total.

or 4 panels at 140w @ 12v.. works to 12x7.82amp= 93.84 x 5 hours = 469.2 x 4 = 1876.8... for $1196 total..

you may be onto something.. my controller is already going to be 12/24v capable... hmmm..

The Samlex PST-100S-24V 1000w Pure Sine inverter is about $110 more than the Xantrex SW Pro 1000 in 12v..

I'd save $286 overall.. :cool:

mike95490

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

petertearai wrote: »

I would not go the 12 volt way , but go 24 or 48 volts.

Ditto. A couple lights, you can do with 12V, larger loads, the rule of thumb is each 1,000w surge, add another 12V.

You can see that your 12V battery is ending up a monster parallel array, and parallel batteries are seldom the best configuration. Get 6V deep cycle batteries, in series. Golf cart batteries may be the least expensive way to go, since they are MASS PRODUCED, but may not last as long as "solar" batteries. Still a good way to learn with.

ywhic

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

I was going to buy 4 of the T105's anyway.. 4 in series (to get to 24v) would only be 220ah still though..

I was going with 4 T105's to get 2 parallel sets of 12v.. for 440ah..

Anyone have a CHEAP (under $150 each) 12v GOOD battery option for me?? I'd buy 2 of them...

My consumption would be the same upto about 100 ah per day (or is that for 12v)?.. so I need something..

My A/C will be using about 550 watts of 110v AC.. on 12v that is 55AH per hour.. is it less off a 24v-110v inverter??

vtmaps

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

ywhic wrote: »

I was going to buy 4 of the T105's anyway.. 4 in series (to get to 24v) would only be 220ah still though..

I was going with 4 T105's to get 2 parallel sets of 12v.. for 440ah..

Either way the energy stored in the battery is the same.

ywhic wrote: »

My A/C will be using about 550 watts of 110v AC.. on 12v that is 55AH per hour.. is it less off a 24v-110v inverter??

Energy consumption is the same either way.

--vtMaps

Photowhit

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

ywhic wrote: »

2 panels at 210w @ 24v.. works to 24vx7.11amp=...

NOT A 24VOLT PANEL!!!

I remember posting that some of what they were calling 24 volt panels were NOT24 volt panels...

...well if a 210 watt panel is producing 7.11 Amps 210/7.11= 29.5 Volts which is NOT a panel to charge a 24 volt system.

...At least not without a MPPT charge controler.

Cariboocoot

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

The power would be the same:

440 Amp hours @ 12 Volts = 5280 Watt hours DC, up to 50% usable
220 Amp hours @ 24 Volts = 5280 Watt hours DC, up to 50% usable

Power consumption for AC Watt loads is the same on either system, only the Amps goes down and the Voltage up.

A 24 Volt system is about 1% more efficient and can handle heavy loads better because less of the power comes as Amps (which creates heat energy that does no work). Wiring can be smaller and less "stressed".

But 24 Volt systems can still be more expensive to build. Check the prices on 24 Volt inverters and also realize you can't always use 12 Volt auto/RV components.

This is why I recommended saving up for a 24 Volt system to run your A/C and 'frige.

Photowhit

Re: Which inverter for 12V??

ywhic wrote: »

2 panels at 210w @ 24v.. works to 24vx7.11amp= 170.64 x 5 hours = 853.2 x 2 = 1706... for $800 total.

or 4 panels at 140w @ 12v.. works to 12x7.82amp= 93.84 x 5 hours = 469.2 x 4 = 1876.8... for $1196 total..

Another point I made somewhere else, is that the 200+ watt panels that can be had for near $1 a watt might be a better value as the PWM charge controller should handle the higher voltage, and produce near the same Amperage. That makes adding 40-50% increase in your array as easy as replacing your PWM charge controller with an MPPT type controller later. Also most of the 200+ watt panels are UL panels incase you ever need them. While not a savings now, it might have savings later.

If your considering a meter with your controller, you might look into the Rogue controller, which could handle around 840 watt array at 24 volts and has a pretty nice meter built in, I think they run @$350. The Rogue is an Mppt type controller.