The environmental cost of solar

wakamesalad

If we are really concerned about the environment and clean energy then we should also be concerned about any environmental damage that living off of solar panels could cause. Granted that these are probably much cleaner than oil, coil, and nuclear.

I am not being a negative nancy or a thorn in your side here. I just want to know the honest facts about any adverse reactions to solar energy.

-Are there enough resources to create solar panels to power the world?

-What are modern day solar panels made of? Where is the technology headed?

-What are the lifespans of solar panels?

-Are PV panels recyclable?

BB.

Re: The environmental cost of solar

Bits and pieces are recyclable--The typical aluminum and copper scrap metal. Batteries (lead acid, et.al.) are highly recyclable (even if heavy metals and lots of mining issues).

Panels themselves are typically glass panels and silicon cells--All as common as beach sand.

Thin Film panels are usually made with the toxic, heavy metal, Cadmium... So those should be recycled/disposed of safely. Also think film panels are typically 2x the surface area (because of lower collection efficiency) and made from thicker glass (heavier panels--will need more support structure and wiring).

In general, I (and some others here) really like to press for conservation... Lots of insulation, appropriate design of homes, and using appropriately sized appliances (laptop vs desktop computers, CFL/LED lighting, new high efficiency A/C and Heat Pumps).

For most people that have never looked into conservation before (and may have older homes), it is not unreasonable to see people save 50% of their energy usage with increased insulation, replacing with high eff/energy star appliances, turning stuff off when not used (computers, entertainment systems, etc.). With not too much impact on the home owner's day to day living.

Solar PV systems have limited savings for society (still need power plants for dark and stormy weather) and really only help those living off grid (who are too far from utility lines). At this point, solar Grid Tied systems only "save money" because of state PUC and Federal government regulations, laws, and tax incentives.

-Bill

wakamesalad

Re: The environmental cost of solar

Bill-
what about the amount of energy it takes to make solar panels? And the amount of water?
How long will it take a solar power to produce energy before it evens out its energy consumption?

I highly agree with you about energy conservation- this could solve most of the worlds problems! I have a car AND a bike- I ride my bike during good weather and drive during rainy weather. I live in a 1 bedroom apartment and my gas and electric bill is about $15 a month. I use thick soft blankets at night instead of turning on the heater (heat makes your skin dry and speeds up the aging process anyway). I live in San Francisco as well so the weather here being mild all year long is very helpful for conserving energy. I would like to see people move en masse to places like this and away from Las Vegas and San Diego where energy is becoming a rare resource (as we have seen with that widespread blackout in the SD area a few months ago). Also, living in cities vs. suburbs (more people living closer together= more concentrated body heat and less traveling to get to your destinations).

My premonition is that people will start moving away from sprawling arid climates into more mild ones within the next 2 decades. Oil and fossil fuels keep these places alive.

BB.

Re: The environmental cost of solar

We try to avoid politics here because it becomes difficult to moderate and somebody is going to end up unhappy (and a moderator gets between a rock and a hard place).

Our host (Northern Arizona Wind and Sun) who pays the bills and does the software maintenance here has asked us to keep the forum on a professional/family friendly basis--but they (and us moderators) recognize that there is politics + Solar RE--So as long as we keep focused, things usually work out OK here.

I live just 20 miles south of San Francisco--So I too see the mild climate gives us pretty reasonable power bills (even with our very high rates)... But we have the right (and ability) to live where we choose, pick our jobs, and live our lives as we see fit (and can afford).

Cities used to be hubs for commercial life--but heavy industry + residential is not very acceptable these days (even "clean industries" like electronics and computers have been found to be much less than clean). I don't know the answers--But unless there are some dramatic changes (some we may like, many we probably won't), I don't foresee what used to be common in the first 1/2 of the 20th century (shipyards, smelters, power plants, plating shops, silicon fabs, etc.).

Regarding how clean solar power is, water usage, etc... I am not sure we will resolve that issue here. Yes, making silicon, glass, aluminum, etc. takes a lot of power and a lot of water. It is better than a coal slurry pipe line running between states--I don't know.

And, with the off-shoring of much of low cost manufacturing--Our laws have little impact on what is being done elsewhere.

More Problems for JinkoSolar $JKS

The Huffington Post reported in mid September,“Police detained at least 20 people after hundreds of villagers protested last week, some storming the factory compound and overturning vehicles. Authorities said the factory had failed to address earlier environmental complaints and that the protests followed mass fish deaths in late August due to runoff from heavy rains.” Then in early October the company reported it was in the process of completion of its phase I environment safety upgrade at its facility in Haining City west of Shanghai in the Zhejiang Province of China.

-Bill

rollandelliott

Re: The environmental cost of solar

forget where I read it but I think around 5 years is the break even pooint for solar panels making more energy than was used to create them. depends on the process I think.

waynefromnscanada

Re: The environmental cost of solar

I like to focus on conservation and the environmental cost of all the frivolous junk we consume on a daily bases. Things which are very environmentally damaging and have no redeeming value, yet are so common that we as a society overlook them while we're busy focusing on the uncommon, like solar and wind, which actually do have an overall long term payback. It's long been my opinion that for way too long our priorities have been and are out of wack, and that we're being covertly encouraged in that direction by certain sectors of the economy.

mikeo

Re: The environmental cost of solar

I think around 5 years is the break even point for solar panels making more energy than was used to create them

I don't know the cost of making a 200 watt solar panel, but since I just bought some with shipping for around $1.00 a watt an supposed that half that is the cost of manufacture, according to PVWatts my 200 watt panel would produce about 19.20 cents a year. To arrive at this I scaled the power up to 2kw and then divided by 10. $200/19.20 equal about 10 years to breakeven with my current electric rates not including any other equipment. Am I thinking through this right?

BB.

Re: The environmental cost of solar

If you assume an average of 4.5 hours of sun per day, a 200 watt panel would produce:

• 0.2 kW panel * 4.5 hours sun * 365 days * 0.77 Grid Tied Eff = 253 kWH per year per 200 watt GT connected panel...

If you have $0.10 per kWH power, that would be $25.30 per year power production per 200 watts of solar panel...

From a very simple point of view, it breaks even in ~8 years [not 1 year] (assuming $1 per watt of panel pricing)... However, it it probably more realistic to assume $5-$8 per Watt installed (panels, inverters, wiring, permits, etc.) for most turnkey grid tied installations.

Obviously, maintenance, taxes, billing plans, and other stuff will affect pricing too.

-Bill

mikeo

Re: The environmental cost of solar

If you have $0.10 per kWH power, that would be $25.30 per year power production per 200 watts of solar panel...
From a very simple point of view, it breaks even in 1 year (assuming $1 per watt of panel pricing).

Don't you mean 8 years approximately in this case 200/25.30? In my calculations PVwatts used 7.4 cents/kw.

BB.

Re: The environmental cost of solar

Opps... Solar panels are not at $0.10 per watt (yet). Fixed my previous post.

-Bill

Photowhit

Re: The environmental cost of solar

There are some US goverment studies, that have concluded they have an energy pay back of 18 months to 3 years for poly panels. The likely some to be defunked Evergreen company used a patented string ribbon technology that used a very minimal amount of silicon and claimed a energy payback of less than a year (9 months as I recall)

I'd hunt for a link to the studies, but you likely can find them using Google.

Off grid systems basically never repay their energy costs since they effectivly use only a quarter of the enegy they produce and require batteries which must be replaced periodically, though they can be cost effective in some situations.

ggunn

Re: The environmental cost of solar

wakamesalad wrote: »

I live in San Francisco as well so the weather here being mild all year long is very helpful for conserving energy. I would like to see people move en masse to places like this and away from Las Vegas and San Diego where energy is becoming a rare resource (as we have seen with that widespread blackout in the SD area a few months ago).

Be careful what you wish for. 8)

wakamesalad

Re: The environmental cost of solar

I've read that the standard life of solar panels is 20- 30 years, so there is a period of about 15-25 years of pure net distribution of clean energy- sounds very encouraging.

mikeo

Re: The environmental cost of solar

I've read that the standard life of solar panels is 20- 30 years,

I have 30+ year old solar panels that are still in use. I suspect solar panel may have greater then 50 years of usable life span. Not to full spec of course, but probably to 80% of new. The BOS electronic components only have a life span of 10-15 years or so. They just don't build them like they used to.

ggunn

Re: The environmental cost of solar

mikeo wrote: »

I have 30+ year old solar panels that are still in use. I suspect solar panel may have greater then 50 years of usable life span. Not to full spec of course, but probably to 80% of new. The BOS electronic components only have a life span of 10-15 years or so. They just don't build them like they used to.

Actually, they are building them better and better. Inverter technology is developing along with the rest of the industry, and points of failure are constantly being discovered and engineered out of systems. Two major issues have been electrolytic capacitors and transformers, and solutions are emerging to these potential problems.

mike95490

Re: The environmental cost of solar

ggunn wrote: »

Actually, they are building them better and better. Inverter technology is developing along with the rest of the industry, and points of failure are constantly being discovered and engineered out of systems. Two major issues have been electrolytic capacitors and transformers, and solutions are emerging to these potential problems.

Any transformer that fails to last 30 years, is either underdesigned, or overloaded ! Simple bell transformers made in the 60's are still going strong, as are many "pole pigs" on the tops of utility poles.

drees

Re: The environmental cost of solar

wakamesalad wrote: »

I would like to see people move en masse to places like this and away from Las Vegas and San Diego where energy is becoming a rare resource (as we have seen with that widespread blackout in the SD area a few months ago).

Having lived in both San Diego and the Bay Area, the climates are not all that different. Gets a lot colder in the Bay Area - here in San Diego only minimal use of the heater is required with crappy insulation. In general the Bay Area is a bit cooler, but not that much so.

The blackout was caused not by a lack of electricity, but a unexpected cascading failure due to the loss of a major transmission line that caused a large amount of energy to be pulled from San Diego towards Arizona.

More rooftop solar in San Diego might have helped - there's a LOT of empty roofs around.