Appliances on a Suresine-300

westyd1982

I've been testing various appliances we have on our Morningstar Suresine-300. Our small, relatively new, energy star Haier chest freezer won't start, even though it only draws around 65-70 watts when running. I even tried a Supco hard start kit which adds a starting capacitor. This lowered the starting surge to around 700-750 watts. Unfortunately not quite enough. I built a computer controlled relay-based transfer switch, and I can start the freezer on another power source and switch it to the Suresine once it has started.

We also have an older Maytag Neptune front-loading washer (probably from the late 1990's - it came with the house). To my surprise it will run a load of laundry off the Suresine just fine with its normal settings. If it has the Max Extract setting on, it draws a little over 600 watts in the final spin and trips the Suresine. The label on the washer says 7A at 120v, which must occur in the Max Extract spin.

Has any one else had any luck running major appliances off the Suresine?

waynefromnscanada

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

I run a fridge and two freezers on a TS-300, but it took some doing.
In order to get them to start, I had to add in a small step down autotransformer that only while starting, drops the voltage by about 10%, which also mades more current available. Once the compressor is up and running, a relay kicks out the transformer and connects the compressor directly to the TS-300 so it then runs normally. I also had to experiment to find the start capacitor value that was the best match for each particular compressor. While by comparison, just about any size anywhere near the ball park will work great on grid power, not so with the limited output of the TS-300, you really have to narrow it right down to the very best value. And something else I discovered, you can't always go by the MFD rating marked on the capacitor! The actual capacitance can be all over the place. Also, I got rid of the thermister starter "switch" on all of them and replaced them with timer operated relays. Again, the timers had to be carefully adjusted. Too long and the extra load of the starter circuit shuts down the TS-300, while too short a time and the compressor doesn't get a chance to come up to speed before the starter kicks out. By the way, I have the relay controlling the step-down transformer controlled by the same timers that control the start relays and that works great. Also, relays lock out the other two compressors whenever one is running, so only one can ever be on at once. The fridge has priority, it shuts down anything else that's running, whenever it needs to cool down. Next is the freezer in the basement, followed by the freezer in the outside shop. The freezers can wait, the fridge cannot. This setup has been working great now for about 3 years. The TS-300 that runs these items has no other job, it's dedicated to the fridge and freezers. My other TS-300 runs everything else but the big loads like the washing machine, toaster, water pump etc, but it will run the oil burner on my heating system, however if too many other things are on when the burner tries to start, it will kick off.
Hope some of this helps. Yes, it can be done, just takes some serious effort etc.
OH! And another thing, I learned it's much easier to make adjustments etc to the redesigned starter circuits if they're in a box, up on the wall where you can get at them without having to pull the freezer out and lay on the floor.
Good luck!

waynefromnscanada

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

westyd1982 wrote: »

I built a computer controlled relay-based transfer switch, and I can start the freezer on another power source and switch it to the Suresine once it has started.

You find this actually works? I had thought of trying that, starting them on a 1000 watt MSW, then transfer to the TS-300, but was concerned about spikes and the "crack of the whip" kind of thing seeing as the phases of the two sources wouldn't be the same. Perhaps the compressor motors are small enough that it's not a real problem.
If that works, it's a heck of a lot simpler than the system I now use.

john p

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

I have a long time ago had fridges modified by fridge mechanics to put 2 bypass switches on the compressor output and input, so that the gas just free runs in a small closed loop. then a relay opens the valves about 3 seconds after the compressor is running, Have had no probles running the fridges on a 400w MSW inverter. I have been told by one mechanic that cant be done on the latest fridges. unfortuunately I never never got to find him again to ask why. Idont have the fridges now but know one owner that it still using his and its been about 4 years now. Ita a far cheaper way than using a expensive 12/24v fridge.

garlic

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

Thank you for posting this westyd1982.I have the same freezer that I have running off of a 1000w msw inverter.The freezers greatest asset is that it doesn't take much solar to run it.My son and I have been hypothesizing for some time weather or not the SS-300 would start the freezer being it's top end starting current is close.
I like Morningstar products.My Tri Star MPPT 45 is an excellent piece of hardware.
I wish though, that they would scale up that Sure Sine to an inverter with the same low stand-by current,ease of use,high surge, and great price in maybe a 600,and 1500 watt version in 24v as well as 12v.

Being that I'm moving to 24 volts soon the SS-300 issue is mute,but if there
was ever a reason to wish for a 12v system that great little inverter would
be it.I can get the Magnum RD1824 inverter/charger for ~$900 new,so I think
that is where I am heading.

waynefromnscanada

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

garlic wrote: »

I like Morningstar products.
I wish though, that they would scale up that Sure Sine to an inverter with the same low stand-by current,ease of use,high surge, and great price in maybe a 600,and 1500 watt version in 24v as well as 12v..

Totally agree! I've already purchased 5 of their products, and would be one of the first to scoop up their 1500 or larger inverter. There seems to me to be a real void of similar quality inverters in that slot.
Can not understand why they don't act on the demand, it's not as if they can't.

garlic

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

There seems to me to be a real void of similar quality inverters in that slot.
Can not understand why they don't act on the demand, it's not as if they can't.

Yes,exactly.

I went on a mission to read the spec's of every inverter currently made,and
nothing else checks all of those boxes.Sure, there are some high $$ machines that
will tell you when your low on butter in the fridge and when your neighbors
i phone needs a battery,but for things like extremely low idle current draw,
that everyone can use,nobody touches them.You don't often hear about bad issues
with Morningstar products.

westyd1982

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

waynefromnscanada wrote: »

You find this actually works? I had thought of trying that, starting them on a 1000 watt MSW, then transfer to the TS-300, but was concerned about spikes and the "crack of the whip" kind of thing seeing as the phases of the two sources wouldn't be the same. Perhaps the compressor motors are small enough that it's not a real problem.
If that works, it's a heck of a lot simpler than the system I now use.

This setup seems to work well for me. I use this relay board http://www.electronics123.com/s.nl/it.A/id.388/.f as my transfer switch (works fine on 12v battery power). I also have a 5v chip (Fairchild MID400) designed to sense when 120 volts is present. I currently run this setup with a small, DC powered Linux computer ( Sheevaplug), but want to set it up to work off an Arduino board so it is self contained. The external box is a good idea. I keep trying to work in the freezer compartment.

niel

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

wayne,
wow, that was some tedious work to arrive at where you are just to make the 300w suresine work.8) that was good thinking to make use of an autotransformer and then relay to normal voltage and current.

just how many run caps do you have laying around to tediously find the optimal value? and did you need to place a specific optimal cap for each appliance as i would think this to be the case? i'd be curious of what capacitance did well for what appliance/load and was there a brand or brands of caps that seemed to be too far out of tolerance as i am still thinking of reducing the va load that my frig presents my magnum inverter with a cap? when you say they are out are they usually too low or too high or both? if i eliminate this extra loading i can add a few more incidental loads without fear of pushing the inverter too far.

waynefromnscanada

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

niel wrote: »

wayne,
wow, that was some tedious work to arrive at where you are just to make the 300w suresine work.8) that was good thinking to make use of an autotransformer and then relay to normal voltage and current.

just how many run caps do you have laying around to tediously find the optimal value? and did you need to place a specific optimal cap for each appliance as i would think this to be the case? i'd be curious of what capacitance did well for what appliance/load and was there a brand or brands of caps that seemed to be too far out of tolerance as i am still thinking of reducing the va load that my frig presents my magnum inverter with a cap? when you say they are out are they usually too low or too high or both? if i eliminate this extra loading i can add a few more incidental loads without fear of pushing the inverter too far.

Hi Niel, almost missed your post, for some reason it didn't show up under "New Posts", and for some reason I went looking to see if there had been an answer anyway.
Found each compressor required it's own value capacitor. I forget the values now, but the largest, on an older freezer was close to 200 MFD; the newer one, which also has a run cap of about 12 MFD continuously across the start winding, I think required around 85 MFD; and the fridge, a converted upright freezer also has a small run cap, and it needed around 65 MFD. I'm lucky, a buddy of mine owns an electric motor repair shop, so I have no problems trying several to get what works best. I don't recall the brand of cap, was just happy to get my hands on any at all out here in more or less the back woods. It was only after discovering I needed a lower value cap and got it, only to find it made things worse, I got him to check their values with his capacitor meter, and the lower value one turned out to be much higher than the one that was already too big. That surprised him, but I already knew it from my results. Wish I remembered the values, but it's been too long for my short memory. Metering their values I now know is the way to go.
By the way, if your compressors have the thermistor starter "switch", you can still add a start cap in series with it and hugely reduce the start surge, and produce much quicker starts, but you have to experiment to find the value that best "rings" the start circuit. Of course once it's up and running, there is no difference in power consumption or VA because then the start cap is out of the circuit, but you already know that. I never did get around to trying run caps across the main windings to see if I could reduce VA. Maybe some time.

Seven

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

I'm impressed. I have a xantrex prowatt600 that won't start my old over under fridge.

niel

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

hmm. i'm surprised you needed that high of values to make it do right. i tried either by calculation or from a website some time back and got a value of around 40mmf for my frig if memory serves. from your results i better go better than that. the frig is the biggest culprit and most likely the only one i'll put caps to. the pf was in the .50+ area so it's bad.

anyhow, the frig is a 21cuft roper (whirlpool) around '97 vintage and i couldn't tell you what it has in it and most of it is fairly inaccessible. i just thought backing the volt/amps down a bit might allow me to add my wireless phone and possibly my tv without the spike going beyond the inverter's 1000va limits. it may handle it normally now, but i think this added cushion would help. i've seen 108a (at 12v) one time already, but most times it is usually under 50a. for normal operation of the frig and a light is a 23a draw. this is configured for backup and with all of the items running it can push the va too high at times if i add the other stuff. to be clear i am not trying to save battery power.

i may be able to run some things off grid at times if i ever get the pvs i got mounted. too late i think for this year to get them up.:grr

waynefromnscanada

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

Niel, I've found that the older (older than your fridge) units work best with a much bigger start cap, and as the newer ones come along, they required smaller and smaller, with the smallest being those with a little run cap across the start winding. But you gave me an idea, I must see if I can increase the pf on my oil burner, as it's a pain to have the TS-300 kick out if the computer and TV, along with a few lights are both on when it goes to start. Doesn't always do it, so appears to be on the border line, may not take much.
And bumping up the 60 amp fuse on the DC side may offer a bit less resistance there as well, so that too might do the trick.
It is truly amazing though what these little 300 watt inverters are capable of. After all, I'm constantly pushing both of them to the very edge, yet like a certain battery add, the little bunnies just keep on going and going and going. :p:p
Very, Very well done Morningstar!
Oh yes, and with the timed relay starters, adding the start cap often allows the TS-300 to restart the compressors under full back pressure, IF I get the MFD's just right, but of course that won't work with the Thermistor "switch" as the thermistor must cool down before it's ready to go again. And just remembered, one of the relays I had to switch the start winding on the oldest freezer, was a bit undersized and it's contacts would sometimes weld. Solved that problem by using the little relay to control a triac. Been working perfectly ever since.

garlic

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

Would it be too far fetched an idea for someone to engineer a way for
the SS-300's to synch and stack?Most of my electronics knowledge from
my Navy days has been forgotten,but would there be a way to tie together
the sections (oscillator?) that generates the sine wave?Like a master "clock"
that controls the others? Is this plausible or just not worth the time and effort?

It would be pretty neat to have maybe 4 ss-300's stacked and coming on line
in succession as the load increases,still being reliable individual units,with a
potential load capability of 2400 watts for 10 minutes,and 1200 watts continuous.

waynefromnscanada

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

garlic wrote: »

Would it be too far fetched an idea for someone to engineer a way for
the SS-300's to synch and stack?Most of my electronics knowledge from
my Navy days has been forgotten,but would there be a way to tie together
the sections (oscillator?) that generates the sine wave?Like a master "clock"
that controls the others? Is this plausible or just not worth the time and effort?

It would be pretty neat to have maybe 4 ss-300's stacked and coming on line
in succession as the load increases,still being reliable individual units,with a
potential load capability of 2400 watts for 10 minutes,and 1200 watts continuous.

An awesome idea and one that I would think would be a relatively simple change in design for Morningstar to make.

garlic

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

An awesome idea and one that I would think would be a relatively simple change in design for Morningstar to make.

I was picturing someone more skilled than myself on a rainy day sitting
at their cluttered work bench with a couple of SS-300's open and an
old o-scope figuring it out because they weren't patient enough to
wait on the Morningstar MBA bean counters to give the go ahead.;)

techntrek

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

That's possible with any inverter - just gotta find the right circuit. Cut the trace on the additional units, tap the same location on the 1st unit, possibly amplify the signal so it can be divided and fed to where the traces are cut on the other units. I'm sure this is all they do on the Hondas and Yamaha inverter-gensets. I'm surprized inverter companies don't do this already. A great selling point for growing your system over time.

The harder part would be coming up with additional circuitry to activate the additional units when the 1st goes into overload. You could fudge it with relays and AND gates, triggered by the thermostats of loads like fridges or the switches that turn on your lights. If the fridge is on and the freezer kicks on and your stereo is on, turn on the 2nd inverter. That has its problems, too...

niel

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

all of that isn't worth the aggravation and there are too many higher powered inverters out there to warrant such an effort on this inverter to be stacked.

garlic

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

niel wrote: »

all of that isn't worth the aggravation and there are too many higher powered inverters out there to warrant such an effort on this inverter to be stacked.

I respectfully disagree,being the SS-300 can be had for ~ $200,and once
a reliable setup was ironed out,everyone could build up their system as they
wanted without having to swallow the whole enchalada in one bite.The value in
the SS-300 is that it offers a set of parameters that no other inverter does.If
it could be stacked,that set of parameters could be available for larger loads.

Discussing ideas like this is a productive endeavor one way or the other.

niel

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

really?

you can't find a psw inverter with at least 600w under $400? not to mention the costs of your stacking effort if it's even reasonably possible?

if you're so mindsetted to only use morningstar then you must ask them to do the engineering and production to come up with a suitable inverter with more capability and keep the price prerequisite you posed.

garlic

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

really?

Yeah Neil,

you can't find a psw inverter with at least 600w under $400?

No,not with the same set of parameters I can't.

not to mention the costs of your stacking effort if it's even reasonably possible?

It's not just about initial cost,but a cool solution that might be a fun challenge,
even if it's just a discussion.

if you're so mindsetted to only use morningstar then you must ask them to do the engineering and production to come up with a suitable inverter with more capability and keep the price prerequisite you posed.

I have done just that and I am waiting for the reply.

I am not "mindsetted to using only Morningstar" .Like I said ,I'm looking at
buying a Magnum inverter,but It that wont stop me from coming up with ideas
for an improved Morningstar product.

The best part of discussing an idea is that no one is obligated to like it;)

techntrek

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

Oh yeah, figuring it out would be 3/4 of the fun. When I was a kid I tore apart tape players and CBs to see how they worked. When I bought my APC UPS I spent 3 evenings just running tests to figure out the startup and running parameters (how the strings were wired together internally, low cutoff voltage, max charge voltage). That was fun.

niel

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

garlic,
i didn't say i didn't like it, but i view your effort as going just a tad overboard. i hope you achieve it, but i wouldn't hold your breath on you getting it done. morningstar maybe can and should. i have never said they made bad things as i believe it is all good stuff. only thing i ever said was they nickel dime you for things like displays and such.

techntrek,
yes, i did the same in my early years and some things never worked again as i'm sure has also happened to you. would you buy that many inverters to do the same with them? it is not worth it as there are too many other inverters out there.

with this i'll drop it as it isn't worth more time for me to be further sucked into a moot redundant argumentative discussion on this. have fun.

garlic

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

techntrek wrote: »

Oh yeah, figuring it out would be 3/4 of the fun. When I was a kid I tore apart tape players and CBs to see how they worked. When I bought my APC UPS I spent 3 evenings just running tests to figure out the startup and running parameters (how the strings were wired together internally, low cutoff voltage, max charge voltage). That was fun.

That right there is the spirit that motivates me.In another lifetime,my whole world
was electronics,hydraulics,transducers,and gas turbines.I have since been a logger for16 years and my prior self needs an outlet.So with my off grid homestead and a head full of various ideas I get that outlet.It's not just a mission to spend money in the most efficient manner,but to challenge my hands and brain to better my nice little world in the woods,and others who share an interest.

Glen Hurd and his $13 dump load controller kit is a great example of that spirit.
Bob and Robin Gudgel building a better inverter because Tripp Lites were junk at the time.Marc at Rogue etc....Its a fun and challenging spirit that makes the gears turn at maximum rpm.

john p

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

Here is my 17.65 cents worth of parallelling inverters.
It really isnt that good an idea for small inverters, one reason being the drive circuitry is inadequate to control another output stage or a few of them.You may find the master inverter may not even start up with outher circuitry connected to it, it may likely think its a fault condition. Another reason is obviously you void the warranty on all of them.and another it can be dangerous as there are high voltages in many places on the circuit board. If one of your new wires comes adrift for any reason it could easily touch a dangerous voltage point and now make many low voltage points high voltage..
I have made 2 x 800w MSW inverters successfully sync their outputs, BUT it took 5 inverters to get it all ok.. Lost 3 inverters in smoke.. But no problem ,not mine and I learnt how to do it.
Same went for getting a 1500 w GTI inverter to sync with a battery powered inverter(to make it think the battery powered one was the grid). In the end I got it to work. but at a loss of 2 x 1500w GTI. and 4 x 1000w sine wave inverters. Yes I know you can buy ones that can do that but I wanted to see how they did it and if it was possible to do it with a battery powered inverter.

What does this all prove?? You can achieve good results with almost anything if you have the time and money not have to worry about all your losses..

So good luck for all the experimenters out there. but just dont expect it to ever be economicaly viable.

techntrek

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

john p wrote: »

So good luck for all the experimenters out there. but just dont expect it to ever be economicaly viable.

If you then sell the plans + parts so others can do it, it would.

garlic

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

techntrek wrote: »

If you then sell the plans + parts so others can do it, it would.

That was what I envisioned as well.

My son and I are hashing out the cascading using all external parts,not
too difficult really.The more challenging part will be synchronizing the outputs.
In my Navy days I had three 2MW 450v 3 ph. gas turbine generators that
would automatically start and synchronize.That was relatively easy in that
the engine speed controlled freq. and when in manual mode you waited
till the lights dimmed showing no potential between the 2 generators wave forms
before you closed the breaker.Getting an inverters freq. to slow down and speed
up to match anothers would be fairly involved,unless you could just tie their
drivers signals together with an amp or isolator so as not to drag down
the primary driver.....I've got a lot of research to do

mike95490

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

techntrek wrote: »

If you then sell the plans + parts so others can do it, it would.

Better have a good insurance plan, there are enough "numbskulls" out there in AE land, to make even large OEM's quake. All you need is someone to misuse your kit and fry their brains - their beloved others will be after you like stink on s---.

And I really like my suresine, with it's 600w for 10 min surge. Awesome inverter, and I'd love to pair it with my XW, to let the XW sleep, till a load comes along that needs the beef.

john p

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

Sorry folks but me even telling you how to do it isnt going to happen. For a start every inverter has a different topology. The access point on one inverter will not be the same as on another brand of inverter. Even if I gave you the brand name and model number of the inverters I used they may not be the same as the ones you use. I obviously did all my mods on the inverters at work . (I dont have thousands of dollars to do that out of my own pocket). Also some of the inverters we have at work are preproduction versions and may be nothing like the final ones made available for commercial sale.
Here the voltage is 50hz and 240v, there would be differences in same model inverter used on 60hz and 110v.
Just far to many variables to make it possible to explain how to do the mods. And as I said in first post you would void warranty on all the invererters you modified.

Another problem is ,what happens if you make a mistake in the wiring and that results in the inverter becoming dangerous to use?? Are you going to be the one to fully accept liability ? or are you going to be looking to me to pay compensation to the the injured or worse persons family ??

Anyone that modifies an inverter should carefully thinkabout liability as they have lethal voltages inside them and one small mistake could result in anothers injury or death.

I have said this a few times before I work at a research and testing facility. I am not involved with selling anything to do with solar or for that matter anything else. Where I work no information can be made available to "outsiders" as to the performance or design of anything that comes into the facility.. Many items are specially redesigned by the manufacturers to met specific government requirements. Telling you about such items is just not allowed. It takes me a very long time to get permission to give out even the most innocent test data.

garlic

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

mike90045 wrote: »

Better have a good insurance plan, there are enough "numbskulls" out there in AE land, to make even large OEM's quake. All you need is someone to misuse your kit and fry their brains - their beloved others will be after you like stink on s---.

And I really like my suresine, with it's 600w for 10 min surge. Awesome inverter, and I'd love to pair it with my XW, to let the XW sleep, till a load comes along that needs the beef.

That is a very good point Mike.

Maybe just do it and let everyone else read how it's done.I can read online how to make a thermite device,but I'm sure there are no kits available.

Maybe enough discussion would motivate Morningstar,or someone else....I dunno..

I think the cross breed adaptation is a cool idea too (ss-300 to XW)

Is it possible for wave forms to be externally synchronized(outside the master inverter)?

garlic

Re: Appliances on a Suresine-300

Sorry folks but me even telling you how to do it isnt going to happen.

No worries there john,your off the hook:roll:

It's all about focus and doing things right.being a logger, if I didn't focus on my job

I'd be dead sometime before lunch.If I stressed about all the what ifs,I wouldn't

make it out of bed in the morning.Pay attention,know what you are doing,and do it

right,and from there on,enjoy every moment you can.