Use of Xantrex Freedom sw3000 in residential Solar application?

jbdparkjbdpark Posts: 15Registered Users ✭✭
Hello everyone,

In 2010, I purchased a Xantrex freedom Sw3000 and a Sw SCP to be used on a marine application.
The project failled and the units has never been used. Now I am embarking on a home
Solar project. Does anyone knows if the Freedom sw3000 and the SCP can be used in residential Solar installation?
Also, I recently accquired a XW mppt 60-150. Is there any firmware upgrade which will allows the 3 units
to interface?

Thanks

Comments

  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Posts: 4,660Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Use of Xantrex Freedom sw3000 in residential Solar application?

    Well maybe...

    It has UL certification for marine use(UL458 ), and doesn't has a shroud(?) so that you can't put the battery cables in conduit, required to meet current code. So if you have to have your system inspected, no or ask the inspector if they are OK with it. It's not uncommon for even UL 1741 to be installed with exposed wires in my experience, I'm not sure when the code changed. I have a Prosine 1800 watt inverter that clearly has UL 1741 on the back but has no provision for battery cables run in conduit.

    I asked the engineers over at the Midnite forum and they say that has always been the requirements for inverters. For the record you have to buy the conduit parts seperatly for the Magnum and Outback inverters either from them or as part of an installation package from them or some E-Panels designed for particular brand of inverters.

    It's a large inverter on a 12 volt system, so you'll need large wires/cables and short DC wire runs, to run it properly. 3000 watts on 12 volts 3000/12=250 amps so your looking at 4/0 cable for short wire runs, and this doesn't take into account 6000watt surge.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Prosine 1800 and Exeltech 1100, ForkLift battery. Off grid for @13 of last 14 years. 1000 watts being added to current CC, @2700 watts to be added with an additional CC.
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Posts: 2,486Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Re: Use of Xantrex Freedom sw3000 in residential Solar application?

    One issue your going to have is with the Neutral - Ground bond. When it transfers to Invert it will make the bond automatically, so you will not need to have the sub-panel grounded with a bond screw. That means you'll have to put in a ground rod on the chassis ground of the Inverter.

    I am not sure the sw3000 will allow the SCP to communicate with another device, once it identifies the Inverter the menu is pretty limited. it might , guess you'll have to plug it in. If you can control it from the SCP, I wouldn't think they would have to talk, they would be two separate items, with their own menus.
  • jbdparkjbdpark Posts: 15Registered Users ✭✭
    Re: Use of Xantrex Freedom sw3000 in residential Solar application?
    Photowhit wrote: »

    It's a large inverter on a 12 volt system, so you'll need large wires/cables and short DC wire runs, to run it properly. 3000 watts on 12 volts 3000/12=250 amps so your looking at 4/0 cable for short wire runs, and this doesn't take into account 6000watt surge.

    What should be the best cables/wires size should I consider to safely handle the 250A nominal curent as well as the 500A surge?
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Posts: 2,486Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Re: Use of Xantrex Freedom sw3000 in residential Solar application?
    jbdpark wrote: »
    What should be the best cables/wires size should I consider to safely handle the 250A nominal curent as well as the 500A surge?
    4/0 would be fine as long as you keep the run to 5-6 feet. The problem that you'll have is the voltage sag if you battery bank isn't large enough to handle any large surge. In a Boat or RV the only reason to have a Inverter that large @ 12 Volts, is to have enough reserve to start a A/C or Refrigerator, you would probably not have many sustained loads like you might in a house. Some would also buy it because of the charger size ( 150 Amps ).
  • jbdparkjbdpark Posts: 15Registered Users ✭✭

    NEED Help Designing my Installation

    I am in the process of putting together a 12V solar installation in the Caribbeean.

    My daily energy usage is about  6.5 Ah. I have about 51/2 to 6hrs of Sun daily.

    Here are my gears:

        1    Freedom SW3000w 12v inverter charger

        1     AGS box

         1    SCP  Box

        10  100 ah AGM trojan batteries,

        1    MidniteSun 150 charge controller

        8     345w Seraphin solar panels

        1    MidniteSun Combiner box (6 strings)

    The panels will be installed at about 30ft from the combiner which will be at about

    15ft from the Charge Controller.

    Charge Controller will be about 10ft from the battery bank and 8ft from the inverter.

    I already have about 120ft of awg #8 of pv cable, and 16ft of awg #4/0 batterycable

    Can you guys guide me in putting all this stuffs together for the best possible performance.

    Any help will be appreciated.

    Thanks



  • BB.BB. Posts: 27,682Super Moderators admin
    I would humbly suggest that you first focus on your loads and electrical needs. Trying to shoehorn in existing hardware is not always a good solution--Ideally, you want to match the system to your power needs--And before that, look into heavy conservation efforts for yoru loads as solar power is many times more expensive than utility power (i.e., if you had to pay $1-$2 per kWH vs $0.10 to $0.20 per kWH for typical utility power--Would you do something "different" with your loads...).

    Inverters tend to be the cheaper components in an off grid power system. I understand your desires, just don't get them wrapped around the off grid axle.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • EstragonEstragon Posts: 2,597Registered Users ✭✭✭✭
    When you say 6.5ah daily consumption, what voltage is that at? What kind of loads (any high amp / surge draw stuff like pumps)? Are some loads 12vdc? That inverter will use a fair bit of power just being on.

    With 8 panels, 4 strings of two panels makes sense. Distance is reasonable, so no big need for higher voltage strings.

    At 12v though, a single classic won't work. Even accounting for warm panels, you're at around 170a output, which would require a second classic.

    It may be a good idea to take a step back and look carefully at loads to see if it makes more sense to rethink the inverter, or to add a second classic.

    I assume the batteries are 12v? If so, that would be a bank of 10 in parallel. Especially with AGMs, it may be difficult to avoid balance issues. Going to a higher system voltage may be worth considering.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • westbranchwestbranch Posts: 5,083Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    From what I read you seem to want a DC power supply for 6.5 Ah and an unspecified AC load(s).
    You did not tell us if the loads are  during daylight hours only or during the dark period?
    10 batteries in PARALLEL is not a recommended arrangement in any voltage...
    Based on the AC loads you have, 24 volt may be a better choice.

     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge, Hughes1100 Sat Modem
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • jbdparkjbdpark Posts: 15Registered Users ✭✭

    Thank you guys for the quick reply.

    The AGM batteries are 12volt.  The  6.5ah is at 110 volt, it assumes I have all my loads on at the same time.The daily loads consist of:   DPl projector 3.7A, water pump 5.4A, 24000btu air conditioner 12.20A, 32inch Tv 1.15A, water filter 0.4A, Hunter fan 0.75A, Casablanca fan 1.00A, ceiling lights 0.85A, Freezer 2.5A, 7.5cubic fridge2A.

    Estragon, can you elaborate more on difficulties of balancing the battery bank.

    Tks

  • EstragonEstragon Posts: 2,597Registered Users ✭✭✭✭
    Like Bill said, it all comes down to loads. Assuming the 10 batteries are 12v, OP could wire them as 2 parallel 48v strings, with 2 left over in parallel to support 12vdc loads (if any) and/or run a smaller inverter for lights overnight or whatever. Could do 24v, but that's still 5 parallel strings to keep balanced (and needing a fuse for each string).
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • westbranchwestbranch Posts: 5,083Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    OK with that list, please estimate the amount of time each item will be running, It is MUCH more than 6.5Ahr per day.
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge, Hughes1100 Sat Modem
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • jbdparkjbdpark Posts: 15Registered Users ✭✭

    Correction:

    I meant to say  my daily use is about 6.5kw instead of 6.5AH

  • EstragonEstragon Posts: 2,597Registered Users ✭✭✭✭
    To clarify, 6.5 is amps (a), not amp-hours (ah). Ah is a measure of current over a period of time (generally 1 day). Amps is a measure of current flow at a given instant. Both are important in designing a system, but shouldn't be confused with each other.

    The amp ratings you've given may be running amps. Some of the loads may have significantly higher starting currents, so it would help if you could establish if some have locked rotor amp ratings. Also, as @westbranch notes, you need to estimate how long each load will be needed each day. With this, you can estimate ah (a times hours used).

    The balance problem arises when parallel banks of batteries have varying resistance (either within the batteries, or in interconnects). Some batteries get fully charged before others, so the less fully charged ones tend to sulfate faster, which makes them harder to charge, and so on. If caught early, the weaker batteries can be charged apart from the stronger ones periodically in an attempt to bring them into better balance, but this takes constant vigilance to do. With AGMs, it can be harder to catch early, because there are no regular specific gravity readings to alert you to a weakening battery. Proper wiring can reduce, but not completely avoid the issue.

    If not caught early, the sulfate hardens and the weaker cells are permanently damaged. At some point, the better batteries could end up being overcharged, vent gas, and also be permanently damaged.

    The problem increases with the number of parallel connections. The rule of thumb here is 2 is okay, 3 is marginal, and more than 3 is very likely to be problematic.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • westbranchwestbranch Posts: 5,083Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    We still need to understand how you need the power over the 24 hr period, ie how much of the load is during the Sun UP period  and how much at night...
    ie during the daylight hrs the loads would be carried by the panels once the batteries are charged.... and also to estimate the amount of draw down on the batteries overnight.
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge, Hughes1100 Sat Modem
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • jbdparkjbdpark Posts: 15Registered Users ✭✭

    The air conditionner will be used  1 or 2 hours during day time when the batteries are fully charge and

    same duration at night. The ceiling lights will be used mostly at night. the freezer and fridge will be on 24hr. Water pump will be used mostly during the day when the water pressure tank is below 32 gallons.

    The projector will be in use for about 2 hrs a  day  and the32 inch tv will generaly use at night 3 or 4 hres.

    If my night consumption  warrant it, I can set up a night system using 2 from the 10 batteries. I already have a spare 12volt 400w pure sine inverter and a 20a mppt charge controller. I will just have to purchase a 12v battery charger, thus avoiding the snagg of charging all 10 batteries with the sw3000 inverter. Is that a vailable a solution?

  • westbranchwestbranch Posts: 5,083Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Good idea about the 12V loads.   Now that you have identified the 3 heavy loads , Fridge, Freezer and A/C, you need to determine how to power all 3 loads at one time. Note all 3 will have a SURGE when they start and your battery config may not be able to handle it... the surge can run as high as 10 times but if they are inverter type motors it should be lower....  you may have to contact the manufacturer for that info...
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge, Hughes1100 Sat Modem
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • littleharbor2littleharbor2 Posts: 979Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    When you set up your inverter you should have your battery cables professionally made. Crimping lugs onto 4/0 cable needs to be done correctly, with the proper tools.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric, 700 ah @24 volt AGM battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

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