What kind of solvent is in my kerosene container?

softdownsoftdown Posts: 1,904Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
The kerosene container is an official blue kerosene container. Somebody put a few gallons of solvent in it at some point in time.

Could be a number of things. We spent years building this almost 8000 foot shop. Guessing paint thinner but probably wrong on that. Could be some more expensive solvent. 

Looking for ideas. Asking here because this site isn't loaded up with jerks.
First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries

Comments

  • mcgivormcgivor Posts: 2,212Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭✭
    Oddball questions.LOL, I had a metal paint thinner can with paint  thinner contaminated with water, built a fire and placed the can in the fire, the can erupted into a volcano shooting flames 2 meters high once the flash point was reached. The bloated can was recycled to the rag and bone man who comes around every few months, yes rag and bone still exists depending on location.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 

  • BB.BB. Posts: 27,905Super Moderators, Administrators admin
    Could be Stoddared solvent or variant of same like paint thinner, et. al. (flammable):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spirit

    Possibly Carburetor cleaner or other chlorinated immersion cleaner or "parts dip":

    https://www.berrymanproducts.com/products/cleaning-degreasing/berryman-chem-dip-professional-parts-cleaner/

    And if old, it could be some variant of Trichloroethane (non-flammable and now "illegal" because it is similar to Freon and affects the Ozone hole):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1,1,1-Trichloroethane
    https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/1_1_1-Trichlorotrifluoroethane#section=Density

    Or if your shop cleaned electronics, it could even be a fluorocarbon (probably not likely--These are pretty expensive and rare outside of specialized uses for vapor degreasing and solder reflow on circuit boards). Amazing stuff but now also tightly controlled (ozone hole stuff):

    http://globalsmt.net/articles_&_papers/new-vapor-degreasing-chemistries-remove-difficult-lead-free-no-clean-fluxes-modern-pcbs/

    In some cities, they have places you can take known and unknown solvents for "safe" disposal (perhaps free once or twice a year for smaller quantities--You have to search for these places/events). If you have to pay for disposal--This could be a very expensive trip (EPA registered).

    If this was a shop that was on your local health department's radar--Disposing of chemicals, oils, etc. is a very stringent process these days and the "original" owner in the chain of use/disposal can be held strictly liable (you pay a disposal company to haul it away and they have all the permits and a good reputation--But the driver/owner end up spraying it on a dirt road to keep the dust down illegally--The federal government will come back to use to pay for the cleanup if the the other company "disappears".

    http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ctrp-0003-race-car-toxic-waste-disposal-storage/

    Good Luck,
     -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • mcgivormcgivor Posts: 2,212Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭✭
    Modern problems, do dispose responsibility if facilities exist, unfortunately the disposal industry takes advantage, charging a premium for disposal, their ethics on disposal vary, the keeping the dust down as an example. Where I previously worked a fuel oil furnace was converted to natural gas, the two freshly filled oil tanks were slated for disposal at a cost of $4000, I approached management wit the idea I could dispose of it for free, by burning it in my Toyota Land Cruiser diesel, 2000 liters of fuel oil passed through that engine, the fuel consumption was terrible near the end, but a brass wire brush cleaned the injectors restoring the regular performance. Please note I'm not advocating irreponsible behavior, just sharing a story.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 

  • EstragonEstragon Posts: 2,846Registered Users ✭✭✭✭✭
    @mcgivor - I have a somewhat related issue. The insurance co made me get rid of an old oil stove and fuel tank when I bought the place. There was ~100 gals of fuel oil in the tank, which I've stored in drums thinking I might get a new oil heater. That hasn't happened yet and might never. The oil was of unknown vintage, but safe to say it's likely 10+ years. I wonder if it could be used in the diesel generator without causing too many problems?
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • softdownsoftdown Posts: 1,904Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Thanks guys....some good information here. The odds are very high that it is something cheap and common. I have not bought expensive  chemicals since the 90's. That was for prepping a rubber raft for painting.

    Guess I could scrub some on paint and see what happens? I have done a lot of painting so likely painting related.

    I looked upon this as an asset before these warnings....
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • BB.BB. Posts: 27,905Super Moderators, Administrators admin
    In our area, they will also take old paint (water base in one container, oil base in another--separated by color--Mix it up and send to poor regions for locals to paint their homes).

    See if it is flammable (safely, small amount + wick like paper towel). Likely it is some mineral spirits (slightly more viscous than water???).

    If MEK or Acetone, that may be hard on plastic container (could shatter if not already melted through)--usually not viscous at all (water like):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyl_ethyl_ketone
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • softdownsoftdown Posts: 1,904Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    BB. said:
    In our area, they will also take old paint (water base in one container, oil base in another--separated by color--Mix it up and send to poor regions for locals to paint their homes).

    See if it is flammable (safely, small amount + wick like paper towel). Likely it is some mineral spirits (slightly more viscous than water???).

    If MEK or Acetone, that may be hard on plastic container (could shatter if not already melted through)--usually not viscous at all (water like):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyl_ethyl_ketone
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone

    -Bill


    Format problem............I wish it was acetone. The container would have lasted a few seconds. Acetone is stored in glass in my experience. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • softdownsoftdown Posts: 1,904Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Behaves just like charcoal starter, just barely burns. Makes a good fire starter and that will be what it is used for. Charcoal starter is exorbitant considering it is likely predominantly kerosene....which costs a small fraction more than diesel at the refinery.

    I would place a small bet that it actually is charcoal starter. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • mcgivormcgivor Posts: 2,212Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭✭
    Estragon said:
    @mcgivor - I have a somewhat related issue. The insurance co made me get rid of an old oil stove and fuel tank when I bought the place. There was ~100 gals of fuel oil in the tank, which I've stored in drums thinking I might get a new oil heater. That hasn't happened yet and might never. The oil was of unknown vintage, but safe to say it's likely 10+ years. I wonder if it could be used in the diesel generator without causing too many problems?
    Probably not a good idea as bacterial growth may have contaminated the oil over that length of time and diesel injection systems can be costly to repair.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 

  • mike95490mike95490 Posts: 7,916Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Using fuel oil in a diesel is NOT a good idea, until you add 2-stroke oil at 200:1 ratio.   Fuel oils / JPn / Kerosene have no lubricity and the fuel pump and injectors will rapidly wear.   And using a good fuel / water separator and filters is a must
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • softdownsoftdown Posts: 1,904Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    mike95490 said:
    Using fuel oil in a diesel is NOT a good idea, until you add 2-stroke oil at 200:1 ratio.   Fuel oils / JPn / Kerosene have no lubricity and the fuel pump and injectors will rapidly wear.   And using a good fuel / water separator and filters is a must
    So fuel oil is essentially kerosene then. I've read that somewhere. Yes....straight kerosene lacks the needed lubricity for diesel engines. 

    JPn? Jet fuel?
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • mcgivormcgivor Posts: 2,212Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 21 #13
    Fuel oil is lower grade diesel if you like, adding 2 stroke oil makes up for its lube deficit, it also produces more carbon, after using it for 20 000 Km I removed the injectors, the 6 nozzle holes were covered in carbon, the spry pattern was not a conical mist of atomized fuel but a random stream, which resulted in incomplete combustion and high consumption, once cleaned everything was back to normal. The 2 stroke oil is particularly important in rotary injection pumps such as Bosch VE, CAV etcetera, which rely on fuel to lubricate everything internally, inline pumps are more forgiving, using engine oil internally, so only the pumping elements and injectors are fuel lubricated.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 

  • EstragonEstragon Posts: 2,846Registered Users ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm making a filter /water separating "polishing" setup for the diesel in my boat. I don't burn a lot of fuel (way less than a tank in a season), and the tank is getting funky (clogging onboard primary filter). It's a sailboat, so it mostly sails.

    I could "polish" the fuel oil at the cabin with the same setup, which would likely get rid of any water and/or growth in the old oil, but maybe not such a good idea to feed it to my c.1982 Onan diesel generator. I don't use it much, but ...
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • mike95490mike95490 Posts: 7,916Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    If you can clean the biology and water out of the fuel, it should be OK.  And cleaning carbon off injectors is much easier than replacing fuel pumps and injectors.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • softdownsoftdown Posts: 1,904Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    One would think there is a bactericide for diesel? Pretty sure there is a solvent that, at least, claims to get rid of water..
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • EstragonEstragon Posts: 2,846Registered Users ✭✭✭✭✭
    Even dead, the beasties will clog filters, so I think I will have to circulate through external filters to get rid of them.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • mcgivormcgivor Posts: 2,212Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭✭
    There are additives which claim to prevent the growth of bacteria, emphasis being on prevent, water being heavier naturally seperates, the use of a water separator is common on diesels. Water is particularly deteremental in diesel fuel systems, here is some information   http://www.mycleandiesel.com/pages/ProblemWater.aspx
    Keeping the fuel fresh as well as never running near empty to prevent condensation, especially in cooler climates are probably the most important things, additionally, the pump, especially rotary and common rail, are cooled by the recirculation of the fuel, less fuel equates to less cooling.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 

  • EstragonEstragon Posts: 2,846Registered Users ✭✭✭✭✭
    Condensation is definitely a factor in my climate, so I try to keep the tanks fairly full. Unfortunately, that means I'm topping off a lot of old fuel with a bit of new. A plus to getting a new oil heater for the cabin would be I could take aging boat and generator diesel and burn it in the heater. Hmmm...
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • mcgivormcgivor Posts: 2,212Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭✭
    Used one of these to heat my garage in Canada https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dayton-Oil-Fired-Torpedo-Heater-5-0-gal-0-35-gph-BtuH-Output-50-000-1000/132320154198?epid=11011376973&hash=item1ecee55256:g:GEcAAOSwKGxavnrc
    Now if only I could find one that spews out cold air, it's 8 pm and still 35°C
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 

  • EstragonEstragon Posts: 2,846Registered Users ✭✭✭✭✭
    35°C Ugh. I can't even imagine that. Anything over 25 and I'm a mess. At 30 I'm in the lake every hour or two.

    Something like that torpedo heater might work. The potential for monoxide could be an issue, but I'd likely just use it for a couple of hours to initially warm the cabin on arrival in winter. I use a propane version now and I'm still breathing, just a bit of an issue with moisture from propane. Does the diesel have a smoky-smelly output?
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • mcgivormcgivor Posts: 2,212Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭✭
    Supprisingly  little odor, left the door open a crack to provide some fresh air, diesel has low carbon monoxide more dioxide, it was a garage which smelled like diesel and oil anyhow so perhaps the odor blended in, so to speak. Today the high was 42°C, replaced a hub seal on my Kubota tractor, not hard work but lost a few liters of water doing so, it's supposed to be healthy, if not confortable.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 

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