Trojan Industrial batteries not working

NorthGuy
NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
Hi,

I'm building my off-grid system. I bought 8 Trojan IND13-6V batteries, one string, 673AH. For some reason, it's extremely hard to put the SG on these batteries up, and then it drops back very rapidly. I've read other posts, and looks like people do have similar problems with other kinds of Trojan batteries, but mine is just much more severe. Fortunately, I'm still connected to the grid, which certainly helps to figure out what's going on. The problem is best illustrated by a controlled experiment that I performed.

1. I equalized them at 62V. This is what Trojan recommends. Actual voltage was slightly higher than this because of the temperature compensation. Before equalization, the SG was 1.192 (all the numbers here are temperature adjusted, the average of three cells. Other cells do not differ from these by any significant amount). It took me 17 hours until the SG stopped to increase. At this point it reached 1.247. Docs say SG needs to be 1.260, but I couldn't get it there. That is similar to my previous equalization, which I did mid December. Back then I did it for 20 hours and it only went to 1.245. I guess there's no way to move it higher.

When I completed the process, I let the batteries stay overnight, and made the measurements in the morning. I got SG of 1.248. The open circuit voltage was 50.7, which is very good. The docs say must be 50.6.

2. I discharged the batteris for 24 hours. I monitored load and recorded down the numbers. After correcting for inverter efficiency, I estimated that 350AH were removed. Then I let the batteries stay overnight. In the morning, I got SG of 1.142 and voltage of 48.0V. According to the table in the manual, this SG corresponds to 40% SOC, and voltage indicates 45% SOC. So both numbers are on the same page. Given the SOC, the full capacity of the bank is around 600AH. Nominal is 673AH, but Trojan warns that in the beginning the capacity of their batteries is reduced, so the results are normal.

3. I did a big charge. I set absorption voltage to 58.8 (Trojan recommends 56.4 to 58.8 ), so I decided I would go as high as I can. I then decided to go with a long absorption time, and I decided to measure the SG every hour as absorption goes on to figure out how long would I need to go to get the SG up. I ended up with about 3.5 hours of bulk at 92A and 8 hours of absorption. This, however, didn't elevate the SG high enough. I decided to stop because it was getting late and even 5 hours of absorption would be too long for me. Why go past 8? During this charge, I put 436AH into the batteries, which is 125% of what I took. Based on this number, batteries should be fully charged.

I let the batteries rest overninght and took the measurements. SG was 1.211 and open circuit voltage was 51.6. The effect of equalization that I did just three days ago completely erased. Trojan recommends to equalize when it's below 1.230, so I would need to equalize again! By my previous experience, it's 12 to 15 hours of equalization from here to my maximum SG. Note that the voltage is also abnormal. It is elevated whole 1V above the normal level.

What do I think about this? I think that the acid in the batteries doesn't move well enough, so the elecrolyte stratifies after every cycle. Where the acid is more concentrated, plates work harder, which produces higher open circuit voltage, but also corrodes the plates. And there's nothing I can do to stop the process ...

I contacted Trojan tech support many times, but they pretty much ignored all my questions. All they could say is that I need to charge batteries until I get SG to 1.260, and if it is not 1.260 then batteries are not charged. Perhaps, someone here, who has experience with batteries (especially big batteries), could give me a good advice?
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Comments

  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    I don't want to junk your thread up, your problem is very perplexing, The only common denominator I can see is the SG readings. Have you tried a different hydrometer ?? The only other thing I can think of is they were heavily sulfated and crystallized and the acid mix has been diluted to the point that is way off.

    I didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn last night so I don't want to play a Battery expert.
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
    The only common denominator I can is the SG readings. Have you tried a different hydrometer ??

    I had a hydrometer. When the problem started to show up, I bought two other hydrometers in a different store. All three are relatively close to each other. I picked up the one that show the highest SG :) and now use it all the time. So, if there's an error in my measurements, it's on the high side.
  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
    The only other thing I can think of is they were heavily sulfated and crystallized and the acid mix has been diluted to the point that is way off.

    I think that you are exactly right. The extent to which the SG can rise is limited by the amount of sulphate (SO4) which is present in the battery which can be placed into solution as sulphuric acidd (H2SO4).

    When lead sulphate forms on the plates during normal discharge, the SG drops. When that sulphate is forced back into solution during charging, the SG rises.
    But if the sulphate is in hard/crystalized/insoluble form, then the SG cannot rise as high as it originally did. The battery voltage under charge will still rise, in the form of "surface charge" or "overcharge", because the voltage has reached the gassing level. But that voltage will not remain high after rest or short discharge.

    The other measurable result of the sulphation of the battery is that the capacity in AH is permanently reduced. The combination of low SG which cannot be raised via EQ and loss of measured capacity is the clear marker of sulphation. (The only other possible combination to cause this would be a physical break of part of the discharged plate off the electrodes, plate shedding.)

    BTW, the high reading hydrometer may well not be the correct one! :-)
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    I had a hydrometer. When the problem started to show up, I bought two other hydrometers in a different store. All three are relatively close to each other. I picked up the one that show the highest SG :) and now use it all the time. So, if there's an error in my measurements, it's on the high side.
    Well, the capacity doesn't seem bad. With the number of hours you spent Equalizing, they will never come up any higher, I don't think. How about the temperature compensation. @ 30 deg they would be 1.245.

    When you talk about the SG rising, remember that battery is HOT, @ 100 Deg the SG would be 1.273, after it cooled , It would be different.
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    Just thinking:
    How long does bulk take normally? Same for Absorb.
    what are the battery cell temps before, during and after Absorb and EQ.?
    did you check individual 6V cell Voltage through the Ab and EQ?
    hth
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
    Well, the capacity doesn't seem bad. With the number of hours you spent Equalizing, they will never come up any higher, I don't think.

    Yes, the capacity seems to be fine. At least after equalization.
    How about the temperature compensation. @ 30 deg they would be 1.245.

    They're in a heated garage. Garage termostat is set on 12C. In November and beginning of December, when I was cycling them very slowly and it was -25C outside, they were at around 10C. Now it's warmer and I cycle them, so their temperature came up and is around 20C.

    All numbers are temperature compensated using the temperature that I recorded at the moment. I subtract 0.004 for every 5C. So, the actual readings in most cases were a bit higher then the numbers that I posted.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,433 admin
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    1. I equalized them at 62V. This is what Trojan recommends. Actual voltage was slightly higher than this because of the temperature compensation. Before equalization, the SG was 1.192 (all the numbers here are temperature adjusted, the average of three cells. Other cells do not differ from these by any significant amount). It took me 17 hours until the SG stopped to increase. At this point it reached 1.247. Docs say SG needs to be 1.260, but I couldn't get it there. That is similar to my previous equalization, which I did mid December. Back then I did it for 20 hours and it only went to 1.245. I guess there's no way to move it higher.
    80-90% S
    I just want to understand your use of charging and equalization...

    In theory, charging is performed at (for example) 59 volts set point. If the battery is less than ~80-90% sate of charge, the charge controller will be in "bulk"--The charger will be output 100% of rated output current, and voltage will be below 59 volts.

    Once the the battery is over ~80% State of Charge, the voltage will hit the absorb set point of 59 volts. Then the current will slowly decrease as the batteries become closer to >90% SoC.

    The battery bank will be "full" when the absorb charging current reaches around 1-2% of the batteries rated AH capacity (637 AH in your case, or ~6-12 amps at 59 volts).

    Now, some cells will be fully charged (by specific gravity and voltage readings), and others may be less... When the spread between high SG and low SG cells is around 0.015 to 0.030 SG spread and the battery is fully charged (as described above), then you would run an equalize charge.

    Equalize charging should be around 60-63 volts--the set point such that the battery is receiving around 2.5 to 5% (no more than 5%) of bank AH capacity. During equalization, you should be measuring the specific gravity of each cell every 30-60 minutes. Ideally, the high cells will remain at full charge, and the low cells should rise between readings. When the last cell SG stop rising, then the battery bank is fully equalized and turn off the equalization charging (note: monitor battery bank temperature, if the bank temperature exceeds factory limits, stop equalization and let the bank COOL (not cook) before restarting equalization).

    There are a lot of variations to what I posted above--But it is at least a starting point for discussion.

    So--is that what you did?

    Note--After equalization, the maximum SG reading of the cells should be logged and that is the "new" maximum SG reading you should expect and call 100% charged.
    When I completed the process, I let the batteries stay overnight, and made the measurements in the morning. I got SG of 1.248. The open circuit voltage was 50.7, which is very good. The docs say must be 50.6.

    2. I discharged the batteries for 24 hours. I monitored load and recorded down the numbers. After correcting for inverter efficiency, I estimated that 350AH were removed. Then I let the batteries stay overnight. In the morning, I got SG of 1.142 and voltage of 48.0V. According to the table in the manual, this SG corresponds to 40% SOC, and voltage indicates 45% SOC. So both numbers are on the same page. Given the SOC, the full capacity of the bank is around 600AH. Nominal is 673AH, but Trojan warns that in the beginning the capacity of their batteries is reduced, so the results are normal.

    Yes--Per the Battery FAQ, a battery can increase capacity by 5-10% during the first few dozen charging cycles.
    3. I did a big charge. I set absorption voltage to 58.8 (Trojan recommends 56.4 to 58.8 ), so I decided I would go as high as I can. I then decided to go with a long absorption time, and I decided to measure the SG every hour as absorption goes on to figure out how long would I need to go to get the SG up. I ended up with about 3.5 hours of bulk at 92A and 8 hours of absorption. This, however, didn't elevate the SG high enough. I decided to stop because it was getting late and even 5 hours of absorption would be too long for me. Why go past 8? During this charge, I put 436AH into the batteries, which is 125% of what I took. Based on this number, batteries should be fully charged.

    That certainly sounds correct.
    I let the batteries rest overninght and took the measurements. SG was 1.211 and open circuit voltage was 51.6. The effect of equalization that I did just three days ago completely erased. Trojan recommends to equalize when it's below 1.230, so I would need to equalize again! By my previous experience, it's 12 to 15 hours of equalization from here to my maximum SG. Note that the voltage is also abnormal. It is elevated whole 1V above the normal level.

    Equalization is not usually used for "charging" a low SG battery bank... It is usually only used when the "spread" between the low and high cells are over ~0.015 to 0.030 sg spread (there is a practice where a battery is fully charged, then hit with equalize voltage for a 10 minutes or so to "finish charge" quickly. Poster stephendv can tell you more.
    What do I think about this? I think that the acid in the batteries doesn't move well enough, so the electrolyte stratifies after every cycle. Where the acid is more concentrated, plates work harder, which produces higher open circuit voltage, but also corrodes the plates. And there's nothing I can do to stop the process ...

    If the batteries were bubbling (sort of like a just opened can of soda pop), stratification should not be an issue.

    There can be a problem where the bubbles cling to the float of a hydrometer and give a false high SG reading--But assuming your voltages are calibrated and everything is working OK--It sounds like you are more than holding up your side of the charging process.
    I contacted Trojan tech support many times, but they pretty much ignored all my questions. All they could say is that I need to charge batteries until I get SG to 1.260, and if it is not 1.260 then batteries are not charged. Perhaps, someone here, who has experience with batteries (especially big batteries), could give me a good advice?

    About all I can suggest... While charging at 58.8 volts--Monitor the charging current and see what the tail of the curve looks like. Absorb (after a discharge) should start in Bulk at charger's rated current (or whatever the solar panels can output at that time of day/sun conditions) until absorb, then slowly ramp down over (2-4-8 hours) to the 1-2% "tail" current... At that point, all of the charging energy is being turned into heat and hydrogen/oxygen gases.

    If the charger is not outputting rated current/voltage set points (as measured at the battery posts), then you may have a charger/wiring issue (you don't want too much voltage drop on the charger cables--probably around 0.2 to 0.4 volt maximum for a 48 volt bank).

    And check the voltage across each cell (if 2 volt) or across each 6/12 volt battery block. You are looking for low or high voltage cells (batteries) vs the average voltage readings. If you see any that are "out of the normal"--you want to look closer for reasons why.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    Hi NorthGuy,

    It does sound like you need a longer Absorption charge stage. Both or your XW CCs use the same Battery temp Sensor? Believe that they are networked in multi-CC setups, but each charge source needs battery temperature information.
    Have you set the correct temp compensation value in the CCs? .. (believe that this is one of the values needed to be entered).

    If it were my bank, and any reasonable amount of Absorb time was not doing the job, would increase the Vabs a bit above the max setting that you are using. And increase the Abs time until the bank can become fully recharged at the end of Absorb.

    If you need to EQ for that long, the bank is not getting fully charged on each cycle (and as stated by others).

    The bottom line is that you need to make certain that the bank gets fully recharged several times per week, and also, that the bank gets recharged to about 90% SOC on each cycle, and that it does not sit at a low SOC before recharge begins.

    As has been mentioned, the Ending Amps is an important indication of the progress of a recharge, But, you need a shunt to easily measure how much of the charger current is actually going into the batts as charge current, vs how much current is being produced by the charge source.

    How long have you had this bank, and how long has it been in service?
    Good Luck, Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
    westbranch wrote: »
    Same for Absorb.

    The bulk duration depends on the depth of discharge. Lately, I discharged them during the day time (from before sunrise into the dark) and then charged back in the evening. My main goal was simly to watch solar production levels. Depending on when I flipped the switch and on the level of solar production, they may be more or less discharged. So, it's anywhere between 0.5 and 2 hours.
    westbranch wrote: »
    Same for Absorb.

    Regular absorption is usually around 1.5 hours. However, when discharge was small, absorption may complete in an hour. Yesterday, after bigger discharge, the absorption would be 2 hours if I wouldn't force it to be 8.
    westbranch wrote: »
    what are the battery cell temps before, during and after Absorb and EQ.?

    On my first equalization it went from 9C to 13C (in 20 hours, counting the overnigt pause while they were floating). On the second equalization the temperature went from 16 to 23C (in continuous 17 hours).

    I didn't record temperatures during regular absorptions, but yesterday, when I did 8-hour absorption, the temperature was steady at 23C. That does indicate some heat because this is in a relatively cold garage. For example, in the following period of similar duration overnight, while the batteries were at rest, they cooled down from 23C to 21C.
    westbranch wrote: »
    did you check individual 6V cell Voltage through the Ab and EQ?

    No. But I'll do it tonight.

    Usually cells are even in both voltage and SG.
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    Bill, did you really mean COOK?

    stop equalization and let the bank cook before restarting equalization
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,433 admin
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    Sorry, "COOL".... Will fix post.

    Thank you,
    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
    BB. wrote: »
    I just want to understand your use of charging and equalization...

    In theory, charging is performed at (for example) 59 volts set point. If the battery is less than ~80-90% sate of charge, the charge controller will be in "bulk"--The charger will be output 100% of rated output current, and voltage will be below 59 volts.

    Once the the battery is over ~80% State of Charge, the voltage will hit the absorb set point of 59 volts. Then the current will slowly decrease as the batteries become closer to >90% SoC.

    The battery bank will be "full" when the absorb charging current reaches around 1-2% of the batteries rated AH capacity (637 AH in your case, or ~6-12 amps at 59 volts).

    Now, some cells will be fully charged (by specific gravity and voltage readings), and others may be less... When the spread between high SG and low SG cells is around 0.015 to 0.030 SG spread and the battery is fully charged (as described above), then you would run an equalize charge.

    Equalize charging should be around 60-63 volts--the set point such that the battery is receiving around 2.5 to 5% (no more than 5%) of bank AH capacity. During equalization, you should be measuring the specific gravity of each cell every 30-60 minutes. Ideally, the high cells will remain at full charge, and the low cells should rise between readings. When the last cell SG stop rising, then the battery bank is fully equalized and turn off the equalization charging (note: monitor battery bank temperature, if the bank temperature exceeds factory limits, stop equalization and let the bank cook before restarting equalization).

    There are a lot of variations to what I posted above--But it is at least a starting point for discussion.

    So--is that what you did?

    Essentially, yes. The problem is that the process that you call "charging", does not increase SG enough. It doesn't do it even if done multiple times, or if I max out the absorption settings at 58.8V (max that Trojan recommends) and do it for 8 hours. This leaves me with SG which is at least 0.050 less than it is supposed to be.

    Trojan recommend equalizing if SG differs between cells more than 0.05, or if it is less than 1.230. So, I do it not because the cells are different, but because the SG of all cells is low.

    And once I've done it, the very next relatively deep cycle takes me back to 1.21.

    The only way that I found so far to increase SG to 1.245 (the max that I could ever get) is to apply 62V to already charged batteries for at least 15 hours.

    If it sounds bizzar to you, that is because it is bizzare. But that's the batteries that I've got. That's why I'm seeking advise in that unusual situation.

    BB. wrote: »
    Equalization is not usually used for "charging" a low SG battery bank... It is usually only used when the "spread" between the low and high cells are over ~0.015 to 0.030 sg spread (there is a practice where a battery is fully charged, then hit with equalize voltage for a 10 minutes or so to "finish charge" quickly. Poster stephendv can tell you more.

    That's right. But Trojan recommends to do equalization also if the SG of fully carged cells fall below 1.230. That's why I was doing it.
    BB. wrote: »
    If the batteries were bubbling (sort of like a just opened can of soda pop), stratification should not be an issue.

    They were bubbling since the late bulk throughout the absorption phase.
    BB. wrote: »
    About all I can suggest... While charging at 58.8 volts--Monitor the charging current and see what the tail of the curve looks like. Absorb (after a discharge) should start in Bulk at charger's rated current (or whatever the solar panels can output at that time of day/sun conditions) until absorb, then slowly ramp down over (2-4-8 hours) to the 1-2% "tail" current... At that point, all of the charging energy is being turned into heat and hydrogen/oxygen gases.

    Here's the amps from my absorption stage from yesterday's charging (every hour), 80, 35, 14 (at this point XW would stop absorption), 8, 6, 5, 4, 3, 3
    Here's the corresponding SG readings - 1.172, 1.178, 1.193, 1.198, 1.198, 1.200, 1.208, 1.213, 1.213, and then 1.211 next morning.

    You can see the nice current curve, but no joy with SG. That's what my problem is.
    BB. wrote: »
    If the charger is not outputting rated current/voltage set points (as measured at the battery posts), then you may have a charger/wiring issue (you don't want too much voltage drop on the charger cables--probably around 0.2 to 0.4 volt maximum for a 48 volt bank).

    I measured them at the battery level and they're essentially the same.
    BB. wrote: »
    And check the voltage across each cell (if 2 volt) or across each 6/12 volt battery block. You are looking for low or high voltage cells (batteries) vs the average voltage readings. If you see any that are "out of the normal"--you want to look closer for reasons why.

    I did that many time during rest and float, and they were about the same, but didn't do it on charge. Will do tonight.
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    Thanks Vic,
    Vic wrote: »
    It does sound like you need a longer Absorption charge stage.

    Once I go off-grid, I cannot really do longer than 8 hours. Even 4 hours would be hard.
    Vic wrote: »
    Both or your XW CCs use the same Battery temp Sensor? Believe that they are networked in multi-CC setups, but each charge source needs battery temperature information.
    Have you set the correct temp compensation value in the CCs? .. (believe that this is one of the values needed to be entered).

    My sensor is connected to XW6048, and CCs take if from there. I checked and they do use correction. It is set as -120mV/K (from Trojan specsheet)
    Vic wrote: »
    If it were my bank, and any reasonable amount of Absorb time was not doing the job, would increase the Vabs a bit above the max setting that you are using. And increase the Abs time until the bank can become fully recharged at the end of Absorb.

    I'm afraid of doing this for two reasons:

    1. This may void the warranty

    2. It takes at least 15 hours at 62V to bring it to relatively high SG. I'm afraid that if the voltage increase is the problem, then I would need to go past 62V, which may be damaging to the batteries.
    Vic wrote: »
    The bottom line is that you need to make certain that the bank gets fully recharged several times per week, and also, that the bank gets recharged to about 90% SOC on each cycle, and that it does not sit at a low SOC before recharge begins.

    If by charging you would mean elevating SG to the prescribed level, then the challenge for me is to do it once. If I learn how to do it once, I can do it several times a week.
    Vic wrote: »
    As has been mentioned, the Ending Amps is an important indication of the progress of a recharge, But, you need a shunt to easily measure how much of the charger current is actually going into the batts as charge current, vs how much current is being produced by the charge source.

    I do have a shunt, but nothing is connected to it yet. I use amps that XW6048 displays. They do come down towards the end of absorption as expected.
    Vic wrote: »
    How long have you had this bank, and how long has it been in service?

    This is a brand new bank. Stamped as made in September 2012. I brought them in in the end of August. Connected to XW right away. Got panels installed in November, and started cycling November 18. Detected this problem on December 7. No progress since then.
    Vic wrote: »
    Good Luck, Vic

    Thank you again, Vic.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,433 admin
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    Hmmm... NorthGuy, it sounds like you are doing exactly everything correctly. and the batteries are responding as expected (at least from the charger's point of view).

    The 1.247 vs 1.213 steady/maximum SG readings is really puzzling. From this post (with links back to sources):
    Specific Gravity vs Applications
    1.285 Heavily cycled batteries such as for forklifts (traction).
    1.260 Automotive (SLI)
    1.250 UPS – Standby with high momentary discharge current requirement.
    1.215 General applications such as power utility and telephone.

    As mentioned earlier, the specific gravity (spgr.) of a fully charged industrial battery, or traction battery, is generally 1.285, depending on the manufacturer and type. Some manufacturers use specific gravities as high as 1.320 in an attempt to gain additional Ah capacity, but at the cost of a shorter cycle life.

    ...

    Higher Gravity = vs Lower Gravity =
    More capacity / Less capacity
    Shorter life / Longer life
    Higher momentary discharge rates / Lower momentary discharge rates
    Less adaptable to "floating: operation / More adaptable to "floating" operation
    More standing loss / Less standing loss

    Your batteries are certainly within a "standard" fill range for a variety of applications. But--What is going one with this bank, and Trojan which is saying 1.277 fill.

    Chris Olson (poster here) has documented that his Surrett batteries (because of calcium added to plates????), for him, requires a much higher charging voltage set point of around (as I recall) of 62-63 volts for them to "be happy"--And it took quite a bit of time/cycling to get them to "spec." specific gravity.

    Perhaps, raising the set point for absorb a 1/2 volt at a time would give you some more information (as long as temperatures do not rise "too much" and you are not excessively gassing the cells)... But--This is something I would talk over with Trojan. They are the experts--I am certainly not.

    If Trojan is not saying much, perhaps writing up your questions and possible charging options to your battery dealer and let them help/ask Trojan may help?

    Good luck and best wishes,
    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
    BB. wrote: »
    Sorry, "COOL".... Will fix post.

    Thank you,
    -Bill

    Cook vs. cool. The same word except for the last letter which is adjacent both in the alphabet and on the keyboard, meanings nearly diametrically opposed. Cook. I mean, cool. :D
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    Cook is what happens when you don't stop the equalization in time. ;)
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    It sounds like you are now doing everything right, but perhaps you can't undo the sulfation that occurred in the first months. Inetdog explained it pretty well in post #4. :cry:

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
    BB. wrote: »
    Your batteries are certainly within a "standard" fill range for a variety of applications. But--What is going one with this bank, and Trojan which is saying 1.277 fill.

    Trojan says 1.260 in my manual. But I'd be happy with my maximum of 1.247 if it didn't drop down immediately.
    BB. wrote: »
    Chris Olson (poster here) has documented that his Surrett batteries (because of calcium added to plates????), for him, requires a much higher charging voltage set point of around (as I recall) of 62-63 volts for them to "be happy"--And it took quite a bit of time/cycling to get them to "spec." specific gravity.

    May be he could comment on this?
    BB. wrote: »
    Perhaps, raising the set point for absorb a 1/2 volt at a time would give you some more information (as long as temperatures do not rise "too much" and you are not excessively gassing the cells)... But--This is something I would talk over with Trojan. They are the experts--I am certainly not.

    Looks like that's what I would need to do. That is strange though that they do not recommend higher voltages.

    I guess the problem is not under-charging per se, but the lack of bubbling that would mix the electrolyte. This could be some mechanical obstacles that do not let bubbling to do the job, but also this could be simply not enough bubbling.

    I don't have any previous experience with batteries, so it's hard for me to tell if my bubbling is strong enough. I have wells, which are about an incn in diameter. When I see through them, I can see the surface of the electrolyte. I can see bubbles coming to the surface. They are, probably, around 1/8 to 3/16 in diameter. I can see, perhaps, two such bubbles coming up every second to the area that is visible through the well. Is that enough bubbling?
    BB. wrote: »
    Good luck and best wishes

    Thank you Bill.
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    Thank you Intetdog.
    inetdog wrote: »
    When lead sulphate forms on the plates during normal discharge, the SG drops. When that sulphate is forced back into solution during charging, the SG rises. But if the sulphate is in hard/crystalized/insoluble form, then the SG cannot rise as high as it originally did. The battery voltage under charge will still rise, in the form of "surface charge" or "overcharge", because the voltage has reached the gassing level. But that voltage will not remain high after rest or short discharge.

    The other measurable result of the sulphation of the battery is that the capacity in AH is permanently reduced. The combination of low SG which cannot be raised via EQ and loss of measured capacity is the clear marker of sulphation. (The only other possible combination to cause this would be a physical break of part of the discharged plate off the electrodes, plate shedding.)

    I don't think the sulphation is the problem in my case because of three reasons

    - I don't get open voltage drop when batteries are at rest. It's completely opposite. My open circuit voltage is too high

    - The capacity does no seem to be reduced

    - It's just hasn't been enough time for sulphation to develop. These are brand new batteries. When I first discovered the problem they'd been cycled only 4 or 5 times. I would've discovered the problem earlier, but that was the first time I measured SG after I started cycling them.
    inetdog wrote: »
    BTW, the high reading hydrometer may well not be the correct one! :-)

    I'm just trying to do my best :-)
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    Made voltage measurment of individual 6V batteries under absorption. They difference between the highest and lowest is 0.1V. Looks normal to me.
  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    Hi NorthGuy,

    Thanks for the detailed replies.

    The amount of bubbling will increase as the Absorption stage progresses. The amount of bubbling that you describe does not sound like enough if that report was very near the end of Abs.

    And during EQ the bubbling should be very pronounced. My Surrettes really FIZZzzzz during EQ.

    All of this must be very frustrating to you.

    Agree with BB Bill, to try contacting the dealer or distributor who sold the batteries to you. And as mentioned, sometimes writing a letter to a supervisor/manager either at the dealer or Trojan. Perhaps both.

    Also you might try calling Trojan and asking/demanding to speak with the Tech Support Supervisor or Manager. This is a young bank, and they need to support you to get things ironed out.

    Hope that you have good quality glass Hydrometers. It is difficult to measure down to one point, but getting within several points can be done repeatibly.

    And, just to make certain, when measuring SG, you want to draw and expell two or three electrolyte samples, and then measure on the following draw. Keep the Hydrometer vertical, and make sure that the float does not stick to the sides of the outside tube of the Hydro.

    Rinse the Hydrometer with Distilled Water at least twice at the end of a measuring session. More later. Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    Thank you Intetdog.

    I don't think the sulphation is the problem in my case because of three reasons ... I'm just trying to do my best :-)
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    Trojan says 1.260 in my manual. But I'd be happy with my maximum of 1.247 if it didn't drop down immediately.

    The Trojan manual you got says 1.260 and Trojan may list that as standard in their catalog, but they have been changing the standard SG for some of their battery types recently and may not have given you the correct documentation. They also will ship batches of batteries on special order with almost any SG you want in the range from 1.24 to 1.27. Possibly you inadvertently got a custom SG batch? Trojan should be able to tell this from the batch number or other information on the order.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    Thanks Vic,
    Vic wrote: »
    The amount of bubbling will increase as the Absorption stage progresses. The amount of bubbling that you describe does not sound like enough if that report was very near the end of Abs.

    The opposite happens to me. I get the most bubbles at the beginning of absorption and less towards the end. After 6 hours of absorption there were definitely less bubbles.
    Vic wrote: »
    And during EQ the bubbling should be very pronounced. My Surrettes really FIZZzzzz during EQ.

    Mine bubble little more during EQ, but definitely not FIZZzzzing.

    May be my batteries have some hot spots which charge up earlier and then resist increasing current thereby reducing bubbling.

    My current during EQ went from 30A at the behginning to just 10A (6A in other case) after 10 hours and then stayed at that level. What's the normal current level for EQ?
    Vic wrote: »
    Agree with BB Bill, to try contacting the dealer or distributor who sold the batteries to you. And as mentioned, sometimes writing a letter to a supervisor/manager either at the dealer or Trojan. Perhaps both.

    Also you might try calling Trojan and asking/demanding to speak with the Tech Support Supervisor or Manager. This is a young bank, and they need to support you to get things ironed out.

    Thank you. Will work on this.
    Vic wrote: »
    Hope that you have good quality glass Hydrometers. It is difficult to measure down to one point, but getting within several points can be done repeatibly.

    And, just to make certain, when measuring SG, you want to draw and expell two or three electrolyte samples, and then measure on the following draw. Keep the Hydrometer vertical, and make sure that the float does not stick to the sides of the outside tube of the Hydro.

    Rinse the Hydrometer with Distilled Water at least twice at the end of a measuring session. More later.

    They're glass. They're probably not the top quality, but I couldn't get anything else. All auto/battery stores sell the same. They may me not very well balanced, so it's sometimes hard to make sure they don't touch walls. But I tested them, and when I take multiple measurements, they're usually the same, sometimes 0.005 off (that's the minimal div). They also worked well on the acid that I used for aluminum anodizing.
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
    inetdog wrote: »
    The Trojan manual you got says 1.260 and Trojan may list that as standard in their catalog, but they have been changing the standard SG for some of their battery types recently and may not have given you the correct documentation. They also will ship batches of batteries on special order with almost any SG you want in the range from 1.24 to 1.27. Possibly you inadvertently got a custom SG batch? Trojan should be able to tell this from the batch number or other information on the order.

    The dealer told me than Trojan doesn't stock these batteries, and they need to be built to order, so I had to wait 2 months before I got them. I don't believe they make too many of these. I'm afreaid that since they build them in small batches, they may have made some mistakes building mine, for example, forgot to put something in. Who knows ...

    The tech rep from Trojan told me I need exactly 1.260. After I realized that the water evaporating from the batteries theoretically may change SG by about 0.050 (if you compare the "barely covering plates" and "topped up" states), I decided that 0.015 deficit may not be that important. But the length of the equalization and the sudden drop in SG after even one cycle are big concerns.
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    I am going to wager a guess. There is enough sulfation or some reason they are trapping the hydrogen / oxygen between the plates. I know they still show good capacity but something is just off with them. Being Traction Batteries in a Stationary Bank might not be the best situation. The separators may not be correct. When I'v seen this before it's been so bad it will raise the level of the electrolyte out of the vents with displacement. There has to be a reason your not seeing the gassing. I agree you hear the hiss and fizzing sound Vic talked about, in this case you wouldn't, just some larger bubbles. They could be getting some charge during the early part of the charge cycle, but never finishing because of the trapped gas.

    Just some more $0.2.
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    Than you Blackcherry04,
    There is enough sulfation or some reason they are trapping the hydrogen / oxygen between the plates. I know they still show good capacity but something is just off with them. ... There has to be a reason your not seeing the gassing. I agree you hear the hiss and fizzing sound Vic talked about, in this case you wouldn't, just some larger bubbles. They could be getting some charge during the early part of the charge cycle, but never finishing because of the trapped gas.

    I like this theory. It explains just about everything. I've just went and tapped the batteries (the charge stopped two hours ago) and I saw some bubbles coming up, not much, and only for few seconds, but still some.

    I cannot tell about noises. With charger and exhaust fan working, I hardly can tell what kind of noises is coming off the batteries, but they're definitely not loud.

    Now the $2M question is. If this theory is true, what can I do about this?

    Being Traction Batteries in a Stationary Bank might not be the best situation. The separators may not be correct. When I'v seen this before it's been so bad it will raise the level of the electrolyte out of the vents with displacement.

    I don't think they're traction batteries. "Industrial" is just a name, which Trojan used somehow incorrectly. You can look them up here. They're specifically designed for solar, and according to Trojan can go for a long time without a full charge. That was one of the main reasons I have chosen them. Mine, however, do not seem to be able to do that.

    You can also scroll down on this page to read about the Maxguard XL separator, which is supposed to protect against stratification.

    I don't know anything about battery constructions, but, when I read their description, I can see so many layers, that it looks to me it's very easy to forget to put something in, or put these layers incorrectly.
  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    NorthGuy,

    It is fairly common for some gurgling to continue occasionally long after charging has ceased. And the noises in the power room may well keep you from really hearing the bubbling and Fizzing that may be going on.

    Am sure that Trojan can help you on this. Folks like me are just guessing. Best of Luck, Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    When I said Traction Batteries I meant that batteries in motion are constantly being shaken and vibrated. There is a web site that has pictures of battery plates with all the different kinds damage. There was one that showed the damage from the trapping of hydrogen / oxygen. As usual I couldn't find the site. I agree with Vic that batteries are constantly making sounds as they burp and gurgle.

    In your case there has to be a reason that the SG's are not coming up, It's a theory that there is no gassing during the Bulk and they are charging until the gassing begins (14.4 ). At that point the trapping is keeping them from getting a full charge. That would also keep the EQ from working.

    As I said , I am just Guessing.
  • jeffkruse
    jeffkruse Solar Expert Posts: 205 ✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    My opinion, get a good hydrometer from this site. Measure the voltage of the entire bank frequently to make sure it’s what you expect, don’t trust the charge controller just yet. If you set for 62V EQ what is at the bank?

    Durring EQ the bubbling should be like water boiling at a low/medium boil.

    Up your voltages and EQ @64V (after a good absorb) until no more change in SG, monitor temps and stop if they get to warm. If your SG stops changing for an hour then that is as high as you can get.
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
    Vic wrote: »
    Folks like me are just guessing.

    I understand this, Vic. However, here I've heard a lot of interesting and diverse ideas, which really helped me to understand what I'm dealing with.

    I want to thank everyone for their help.