5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan

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  • a0128958
    a0128958 Solar Expert Posts: 316 ✭✭✭
    #32
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan
    SpartanScott wrote: »
    ... The past week I've been installing and playing around with my monitoring system. Right now I'm grabbing energy readings from some of my high power appliances, until I get to slip the CT's over the inverter output in 2 weeks! This is my monitoring website:
    Scott's Home Monitoring System

    Nice job! Excellent start.

    Best regards,

    Bill
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  • SpartanScott
    SpartanScott Solar Expert Posts: 41 ✭
    #33
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan

    I took delivery of most of the large equipment today. We ordered from DC Power Systems. Shipment came from their warehouse in Lyndhurst, New Jersey. I checked the order twice and inspected everything for defects or damage. Everything was packaged and protected very well.
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  • gwiz
    gwiz Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭
    #34
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan

    Looking forward to see this go up. I will be looking out for it while zooming around town. I know a few people in the area (Howell) that will be interested to hear how your project comes out. Keep the Pictures coming.

    Regards,

    Greg:D
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  • SpartanScott
    SpartanScott Solar Expert Posts: 41 ✭
    #35
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan
    SpartanScott wrote: »
    The permit package will be submitted Monday (3/8/2010) and then the city requires a 7-10 day review before they will issue the permits.

    I have hit my first road block. The city has not issued my permits yet so the installation is not happening today. I guess there is a new inspector and he has not reviewed any permit applications yet. Mine is 8th in line on his table. I guess it could be weeks...who knows.

    Until then, here are a couple pictures to keep you entertained. The solar panel manual confirmed to me that there are 3 bypass diodes per panel.

    -Scott
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  • SpartanScott
    SpartanScott Solar Expert Posts: 41 ✭
    #36
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan

    My permits were issued today!!! The delay was due to a petition which caused the county Building Official to be fired. The county could not afford to replace his position, so had to hire a temp part-time guy from another city.

    I have scheduled the install to take place April 1st/2nd. Weather looks great for those days in the mid 60's. Installer has a 5 man crew ready for the job.

    Attached is a chart of the Solar Radiation and Energy I am estimating I will generate per month (per help from PVWatts!). I left the PVWatts DC to AC Derate Factor at 77% which should cover any loss from shading I will get. Without the trees shading my roof I would have probably increased that factor to 82%. Keep in mind that the number of days per month is not constant which is why the kWh per month line is not as smooth as the others.
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #37
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan

    Panel shading between 10am -2pm is very bad. outside those hours, it won't hurt much. But if you have shade beween 10a-2p - ouch, even a little bit will affect the whole system badly.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • a0128958
    a0128958 Solar Expert Posts: 316 ✭✭✭
    #38
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan
    SpartanScott wrote: »
    ... Attached is a chart of the Solar Radiation and Energy I am estimating I will generate per month (per help from PVWatts!). I left the PVWatts DC to AC Derate Factor at 77% ...

    I'm curious as to the source of your data.

    Did you you use Ver. 1 of PVWatts and choose Lansing, MI data?

    How did you arrive at the difference between insolation and sun-hours?

    Many thanks.

    Best regards,

    Bill
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  • SpartanScott
    SpartanScott Solar Expert Posts: 41 ✭
    #39
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan
    mike90045 wrote: »
    Panel shading between 10am -2pm is very bad. outside those hours, it won't hurt much. But if you have shade beween 10a-2p - ouch, even a little bit will affect the whole system badly.

    My shading occurs after 4pm only during the Winter/Spring/Fall seasons. This shading won't hurt me much; I'm guessing a 5% hit.
    a0128958 wrote: »
    I'm curious as to the source of your data.
    Did you you use Ver. 1 of PVWatts and choose Lansing, MI data?
    How did you arrive at the difference between insolation and sun-hours?

    I used PVWatts Version 2 for my exact location, array tilt, and azimuth. I realize that the Solar Isolation number is the actual number of sun-hours in a day. In my chart I bent the definition of full sun-hours, or just made up my own definition :D ! In my chart, full sun hours was calculated in a way that I can multiply it by rated system size (5.376kW) to get kWh/day for that month. I should probably just get rid of that line and plot the kwh/day for each month to take care of the different # of days per month.
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  • a0128958
    a0128958 Solar Expert Posts: 316 ✭✭✭
    #40
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan

    Scott, thanks for the further explanation. I now understand the chart.

    Best regards,

    Bill
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  • SpartanScott
    SpartanScott Solar Expert Posts: 41 ✭
    #41
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan

    The installation is now complete! The install took place over the past two days, April 1st & 2nd. Day one there was an 8 man crew working from 8am-8pm. Day two was an 11 man crew working from 8am-6pm. Everything went extremely smoothly and was completed with no flaws or problems.

    I will be giving the inspector a call Monday and he will probably be coming out here Wednesday (4/7). After that I must get local utility out here to install the solar production meter.

    -Scott
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  • gwiz
    gwiz Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭
    #42
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan

    How did the panels fair in the 1/2" hail today? Looks good. Can't wait to see the results.

    I also took a look at the installers web site and they have more pictures of your install. Nice.

    Regards, G
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  • SpartanScott
    SpartanScott Solar Expert Posts: 41 ✭
    #43
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan
    gwiz wrote: »
    How did the panels fair in the 1/2" hail today? Looks good. Can't wait to see the results.

    I also took a look at the installers web site and they have more pictures of your install. Nice.

    Looks like Howell took a direct hit from the hail storm. No damage or denting to the panels. For anyone else interested I did post some project pictures on the installer's web site. Here is the link:
    MMSolar: Howell Project

    Yesterday I had (and passed) my county electrical inspection. The inspector was a nice guy. He took 40 minutes looking around and asking questions. It was his 2nd PV Solar inspection so he was learning as well. He did not get up on the roof due to rain/thunderstorm. I do need to get a building inspection next to close out that permit, but I do not need that to be able to connect the solar system. DTE will be installing my two new meters in 7-10 days. Late next week and the system should be up and running.
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  • autoxsteve
    autoxsteve Solar Expert Posts: 114 ✭✭✭✭
    #44
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan

    nice install! What kind of performance are you getting now (per day in kWH)?
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  • SpartanScott
    SpartanScott Solar Expert Posts: 41 ✭
    #45
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan
    autoxsteve wrote: »
    nice install! What kind of performance are you getting now (per day in kWH)?

    I'm averaging 0 kWH/day of solar power! :cry: The system is not on-line yet. I still need DTE to install a net-meter and solar production meter which will happen next week. Stay tuned!
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  • SpartanScott
    SpartanScott Solar Expert Posts: 41 ✭
    #46
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan

    DAY 1

    My electric provider came out this morning at 11:05am and installed my net-meter and solar generation meter. My system is now on-line with no problems and performing as expected. There was a week long delay because the utility inspector said my continuous ground wire from a new ground rod to array to inverter to service panel to existing ground rod must be cut and split in the meter box. We made the cut, but I am not sure why it was required. The way my installer explained it, was the electric company(DTE) requires the cut even though it is probably against code.

    Today generated 22.13 kWh in a partial-day. Max power today was 4520 Watts. When I was testing the system last weekend I hit a max of 6200 Watts, which is 115% of nameplate. It was an 'edge of cloud' event as it was a mostly cloudy day. Inverter shut down 5 minutes before sunset, and (last weekend) started up 2 minutes before sunrise.

    Live and historical graphs of my system can be seen on my website:
    Scott's Home Monitoring System

    -Scott
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  • a0128958
    a0128958 Solar Expert Posts: 316 ✭✭✭
    #47
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan

    Scott, nice progress with your WEL based monitoring.

    One question: is your "Home Power" (=7.96 kWh at the moment) what you actually consumed from the grid (net of solar contribution), or is it actual energy consumed throughout the day before taking into account the solar contribution?

    Best regards,

    Bill
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  • SpartanScott
    SpartanScott Solar Expert Posts: 41 ✭
    #48
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan
    a0128958 wrote: »
    One question: is your "Home Power" (=7.96 kWh at the moment) what you actually consumed from the grid (net of solar contribution), or is it actual energy consumed throughout the day before taking into account the solar contribution?

    Home Power and Energy is what my home is consuming (or has used up) any given time or day. Solar Power is pure solar generated. The net value (Energy Imported/Exported from grid) is not posted to my website yet, but it will be soon because it is a good way to show my banked "available free energy" that I have given to the grid. I plan on building up a bank of energy with DTE as a buffer so I will never have to buy another kWh from them again. As a reminder, DTE will not buy my excess power, but instead banks it as a never expiring kWh amount on my account.

    For Example...Today I used 7.96 kWh (at the moment), Solar System generated 22.13 kWh, therefore I exported and banked 14.17 kWh to the grid. However, as a bonus, I found out that the extra energy I export to the grid will act to wipe out my April Electric bill that has been building up the past 20 days.

    -Scott
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #49
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan
    SpartanScott wrote: »
    Home Power and Energy is what my home is consuming (or has used up) any given time or day. Solar Power is pure solar generated. The net value (Energy Imported/Exported from grid) is not posted to my website yet, but it will be soon because it is a good way to show my banked "available free energy" that I have given to the grid. I plan on building up a bank of energy with DTE as a buffer so I will never have to buy another kWh from them again. As a reminder, DTE will not buy my excess power, but instead banks it as a never expiring kWh amount on my account.

    -Scott

    I wish my utility gave never expiring banking of watts. I can bank across a calendar year with a purchase of the power banked @ $0.065/Kwh. Kind of a poor deal considering it would mostly offset peak rates of $0.156/Kwh. However much better than the original plan of giving them the watts for free on Dec 31.


    Nice system BTW! :D
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  • a0128958
    a0128958 Solar Expert Posts: 316 ✭✭✭
    #50
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan
    SpartanScott wrote: »
    Home Power and Energy is what my home is consuming (or has used up) any given time or day.

    Solar Power is pure solar generated.

    The net value (Energy Imported/Exported from grid) is not posted to my website yet ...

    I plan on building up a bank of energy with DTE as a buffer so I will never have to buy another kWh from them again. As a reminder, DTE will not buy my excess power, but instead banks it as a never expiring kWh amount on my account.

    Scott, I'm impressed on a number of subjects here.

    First, looking at your data from yesterday (nice job BTW using the WEL's 'L'ast function), you consumed 8.5 kWh (regardless of source of the energy) and you produced 22 kWh via solar PV. Net for the day was thus -14 kWh. You were thus a Net Zero Energy home for the day.

    Second, your 8.5 kWh consumption for the 24 hour day is impressive. Even assuming it doesn't include much for heating due to the time of year it is, still, this is on average 350 watts, on a continuous basis, that you're living on.

    Lastly, the terms you have with your utility are envious. Not only can you net zero annually, you can continuously carry the surplus such that you never pay for electricity in the future. It will be a long time, if ever, before such generous terms arrive in TX.

    P.S., the net value (Energy Imported/Exported from grid) will be easy to post on your display when you get around to it. It will simply be the service entrance power monitoring WattNode's pulse channel 1 output. (It looks like you're displaying pulse channel 2, Exported to Grid power, and that you're computing Home Power internally within the WEL).

    Best regards,

    Bill
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  • ag4wake
    ag4wake Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭
    #51
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan

    In talking to a local installer here in Michigan, it seems that DTE Energy might not carry those banked surpluses from year to year. What I was told if you have a credit fo $50 or more at the end of the year, they will write you a check for the surplus. How they equate $50 to a kWh though is up for debate. This was just one installer telling me about it briefly.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    #52
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan

    You have to look at the banked energy and how that is calculated...

    For my utility, the banked account is based on retail power rates (excess power * retail rate = bank account). And, I also pay retail rates for account debts too.

    Currently, at the end of a one year period, I either pay the debt (I use more power than I generate--money wise--or the account if reset to zero--we do not get any cash back).

    However, they are changing the system around for Northern California to pay us back what is in the account... That could be a nice check for me (around $300 per year)--but they have not announced the details--so something else could change the ultimate value of this new program.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • SpartanScott
    SpartanScott Solar Expert Posts: 41 ✭
    #53
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan
    ag4wake wrote: »
    In talking to a local installer here in Michigan, it seems that DTE Energy might not carry those banked surpluses from year to year. What I was told if you have a credit fo $50 or more at the end of the year, they will write you a check for the surplus. How they equate $50 to a kWh though is up for debate. This was just one installer telling me about it briefly.

    Per the DTE Net-metering rate contract I signed (Rider #16), excess generation will be carried forward to provide a kWh credit (bank) in subsequent months. Any excess kWh not used to offset charges in the next billing period will be carried forward to subsequent billing periods (and do not expire or get cashed out yearly).

    Then there is the subject of DTE purchasing the REC's from you at a rate of $0.11 per kWh. Once this credit wipes out your bill down to $0, it builds up as a credit on your account. At the end of the one year anniversary of your Solar Install, DTE will cut you a check for the balance in your account (There may be a $50 min as you state). This fact comes strait from the DTE SolarCurrents Program Manager, and I do not have it in writing.

    I should be getting my first bill in about a week, and studying/posting it will give you some confirmation on how their billing system works.

    -Scott
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  • ag4wake
    ag4wake Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭
    #54
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan

    I took a look at their current Rider 16, yeah it seems as though it will carry forward.

    If there is any choice in the matter, I'd actually like to have the oversupply paid out at the end of the year instead of having it roll over year after year.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #55
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan

    if your state requires it, $50 worth of kwhs at 11c per kwh is a lot of excess kwhs. $50/.11=454.55kwh is needed to start you being reimbursed. divided over 52wks is about 8.75kwh extra every week of the year! i would imagine that if the minimum is not met that it is free generation to the utility so i hope this is not the case for you.
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  • SpartanScott
    SpartanScott Solar Expert Posts: 41 ✭
    #56
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan
    niel wrote: »
    if your state requires it, $50 worth of kwhs at 11c per kwh is a lot of excess kwhs. i would imagine that if the minimum is not met that it is free generation to the utility so i hope this is not the case for you.

    For me 11 cents is what the utility pays for ALL kWh generated (not excess). This, along with the $2.40 per installed watt instant 'rebate', is what the utility is paying me to buy my REC's. So at the end of the year I will get a ~$682 check from the utility (6200kWh x $.11).
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  • SpartanScott
    SpartanScott Solar Expert Posts: 41 ✭
    #57
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan

    It's time for an update of my April solar generation since I got connected to the grid on April 20th. The following data is from the last 9.5 days:

    Solar Generation= 263.26 kWh (average 27.7 per day)
    Home Power Use= 72.24 kWh (average 7.6 per day)
    Power given to Grid (banked on account)= 191.02 kWh

    Worst day was Sat 4/24 with 4.84 kWh generated.
    Best day was Tues 4/27 with 38.78 kWh generated. Power graph of this day is attached.

    With just 9+ days of data there is no use comparing to PVWatts. But if I were to compare I would be doing 25% better than expected.

    -Scott
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #58
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan

    nice. it won't be long for you to hit the generated mwh point.:D
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  • ag4wake
    ag4wake Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭
    #59
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan

    I have found information that the tax code has an exemption for utility paid rebates for energy improvements. Do you know offhand if the yearly check DTE would pay in Michigan is also covered as tax-exempt or is it going to be taxable as income?
    SpartanScott wrote: »
    So at the end of the year I will get a ~$682 check from the utility (6200kWh x $.11).
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  • SpartanScott
    SpartanScott Solar Expert Posts: 41 ✭
    #60
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan
    ag4wake wrote: »
    I have found information that the tax code has an exemption for utility paid rebates for energy improvements. Do you know offhand if the yearly check DTE would pay in Michigan is also covered as tax-exempt or is it going to be taxable as income?

    I do not know for a fact. I did ask the question to both my installer and DTE. Both think that the money should be taxable income since the utility is buying REC's from me, and because of that it is not a true 'rebate'.
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  • ag4wake
    ag4wake Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭
    #61
    Re: 5 KW Grid-Tie PV Solar System in Mid-Michigan

    I keep thinking that the DTE payment can be viewed as a subsidy to purchase a energy conservation measure. I really don't care what or how they are calling it.


    TITLE 26 - INTERNAL REVENUE CODE
    Subtitle A - Income Taxes
    CHAPTER 1 - NORMAL TAXES AND SURTAXES
    Subchapter B - Computation of Taxable Income
    PART III - ITEMS SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDED FROM GROSS INCOME

    Sec. 136. Energy conservation subsidies provided by public
    utilities

    (a) Exclusion
    Gross income shall not include the value of any subsidy provided
    (directly or indirectly) by a public utility to a customer for the
    purchase or installation of any energy conservation measure.
    (b) Denial of double benefit
    Notwithstanding any other provision of this subtitle, no
    deduction or credit shall be allowed for, or by reason of, any
    expenditure to the extent of the amount excluded under subsection
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