LED lighting

solorone
solorone Solar Expert Posts: 257 ✭✭✭
LED is the future, in 5/10 years there will be racks of it at the big box with varous kelvins and angles.
This year I found some 7 and 3 1/2 watt LEDs at Sams and Costco ( $7.50/$20), and they work very well bounced off a ceiling from a tall floor lamp. I just want to know what others are using. I see some very nice designed LEDs 120*x 40*, but they are very $$ right now, $90 to $120 per bulb last time I looked. Half our lights are still 12V If anyone knows of some decent lights, let me know, and please post the lumens.
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Comments

  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: LED lighting

    I got 3 40w bulbs in a pack at Sams for around 27$ . They also have 60's for a little more...

    I really like 'em ...
  • solorone
    solorone Solar Expert Posts: 257 ✭✭✭
    Re: LED lighting

    Hi Frank, I guess us new guys are talking, I was beginning to think everyone was using candela. :D

    I was hoping someone had found a better bulb.
    Sounds like you bought the same bulb I did. Mine are Lights Of America, Model 2004 LEDDL 120V 3.5 W. The light is displayed at 30* and 38*, still a very narrow beam.

    This spurred me to dig a little, and I found a negative review of this bulb.
    http://solidstatelighting.wordpress.com/2008/12/27/par30-5mm-led-replacement-lamp-test/. The sudden fall off in light output, and the doubled watt draw are a disappointment.

    I went through the same thing back in the late 80s when PLs came out. PLs were for Phillips Lighting, they invented what we now call a Compact Florescent. There were many false starts then also, the bulbs cost were about $20/25 and up, due to the needed transformer, and the 12V models were even more.
    Green and solar have never been cheap.
    Maybe LEDs will make some progress soon.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: LED lighting

    LED's are certainly getting closer to use in the average home...

    But, the older lights have been over sold as to how long they will last. Typically, you will see a 50,000 hour rating... Turns out that the "blue" LED in a "White Light" "bulb" will run for 50,000 hours...

    However, the phosphors used to create the missing colors to make white light have a much lower lifetime (maybe 10,000 hours to 1/2 intensity)... Plus, the early White LEDs were dim--so the mfg. were jacking up the current to the LEDs to get acceptable light levels. More light, more heat, caused the phosphors to fail in the 500-2,000 hour range (output fails by more than 1/2).

    The "Costco" lamps still seem to be using "old technology" LEDS (just a bunch of low power LEDs all mounted on a circuit board facing forward). So--I am still concerned about how long they will really last (and output reasonable light levels). For lamps that are switched on and off all of the time--LED's are the only way to go.

    It would be interesting to see the new 1 watt+ LEDs installed in similar fixtures and see what their real-life hour ratings would be.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • n3qik
    n3qik Solar Expert Posts: 741 ✭✭
    Re: LED lighting

    This is a very good forum for LED's. They are mostly dealing with flashlights, but you can/will learn something about LED's

    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/

    For me, I have been using ones off eBay. It's just me and two cats, they don't care how the LED's look like so I have it easy when it comes to lighting at my house.
  • JT2222
    JT2222 Registered Users Posts: 13
    Re: LED lighting

    I don't know about their led lights, but it has been my experience in the past with night lights & compact fluorescents that anything made by LOA is junk.
  • solorone
    solorone Solar Expert Posts: 257 ✭✭✭
    Re: LED lighting
    JT2222 wrote: »
    I don't know about their led lights, but it has been my experience in the past with night lights & compact fluorescents that anything made by LOA is junk.

    Well after doing some reading, it seems you may be right. I have never bought anything else of theirs. But if this is all that is out there, and that seems to be the case since no one has posted another source, then I am willing to play with them. They are considerably cheaper than the first PLs I bought 20 years ago.
  • n3qik
    n3qik Solar Expert Posts: 741 ✭✭
    Re: LED lighting

    I had this booked marked for reason. Never got anything from here, but worth the look.

    http://www.superbrightleds.com/led_prods.htm
  • BillF
    BillF Solar Expert Posts: 48 ✭✭
    Re: LED lighting

    Menard's has started carrying LED bulbs in candella, R38, R30, R20 and M16 versions. Some Sylvania but most are some sort of house brand. Interestingly the Sylvania units state the amount of lux produced but the house brands don't. I keep hoping they will set up a display to showcase the lights.

    I will concur with the statements regarding LOA lights. They should have gone out of business a long time ago.

    Bill
  • solorone
    solorone Solar Expert Posts: 257 ✭✭✭
    Re: LED lighting
    n3qik wrote: »
    I had this booked marked for reason. Never got anything from here, but worth the look.

    http://www.superbrightleds.com/led_prods.htm

    :D Thanks for posting this, I had a look, and the only bulb that seemed worth using is $50. It did have a 45* beam; oh well I guess I will wait awhile and see what happens to the prices. $50 would be better spent on panels.
  • claychps
    claychps Registered Users Posts: 9
    Re: LED lighting

    If you like to solder, I have found these light boards work great in my small travel and can be adapted for home use.
    http://altenergy.blog-city.com/led_apps.htm
  • M1A1
    M1A1 Registered Users Posts: 6
    Re: LED lighting

    In my opinion, stick with 'power' LEDs like Cree, Luminus, Luxeon, etc. Not only do they have better lumens per watt ratios, they may actually make their one hundred thousand hour life rating. Whereas 5mm LEDs have poor lumens/watt efficacy and seldom make it past ten thousand hours, let alone one hundred thousand.

    Since you need about 15 5mm LEDs for every 1 Watt power LED, and about 5 one watt LEDs for a 40 watt incandescent replacement, you need 75 5mm LEDs per 40W incandescent bulb replacement. Multiply that by however many bulbs you need to replace, factor in soldering time and yeah, have a good weekend!
  • LBergman
    LBergman Solar Expert Posts: 42
    Re: LED lighting
    BillF wrote: »
    Menard's has started carrying LED bulbs in candella, R38, R30, R20 and M16 versions. Some Sylvania but most are some sort of house brand. Interestingly the Sylvania units state the amount of lux produced but the house brands don't. I keep hoping they will set up a display to showcase the lights.

    I will concur with the statements regarding LOA lights. They should have gone out of business a long time ago.

    Bill

    I bought one of those bulbs at Menards a couple weeks ago. It was the globe-style R25 one with 28 LEDs, meant for vanity use. For $9, I thought I'd give it a try. I installed it next to a globe-style 25w (equiv) CFL bulb in the same fixture to compare the lighting. I would say the light output doesn't quite equal the CFL, perhaps being somewhere around 20 watts. But it only uses 1 watt compared to 7 watts for the CFL.
  • 2manytoyz
    2manytoyz Solar Expert Posts: 373 ✭✭✭
    Re: LED lighting

    Glad it's not just me. I've tried a number of white LEDs, including ones purchased from Digikey at $3.52 (now $4.35) each: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=CMD333UWC-ND

    My goal was to have energy efficient outdoor lighting.

    lights1b.jpg

    0.72 Watt LED light on the left, 20 Watt halogen bulb on the right. I was careful not to exceed the 20 mA rating, and tried a few different mounting methods to mitigate heat buildup. The results were the same. In a matter of months, they slowly would burn out. These LEDs are rated in the tens of thousands of hours. But at 6 hours a night, they all died in a matter of months. The power source was my battery bank, so very clean and stable power.

    My next option was to buy a commercially available product, rather than build my own. But after more research, feedback from buyers shows that those products faired no better. One such review here: http://www.amazon.com/review/product/B000M1A62O/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_summary?_encoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

    I'm beginning to believe all of the white LEDs are imported from China, based on ads from Chinese company's promoting their replacement LED products.

    This probably also explains why replacement LED lights with MR16 bases aren't available at Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes, etc.

    So I'm sticking with CFL lighting for now. These run fine from a MSW inverter, no buzz, no flicker, no different than running on grid power. I keep waiting for the breakthrough...
  • n3qik
    n3qik Solar Expert Posts: 741 ✭✭
    Re: LED lighting
    2manytoyz wrote: »
    In a matter of months, they slowly would burn out. These LEDs are rated in the tens of thousands of hours. But at 6 hours a night, they all died in a matter of months. The power source was my battery bank, so very clean and stable power.

    WOW, I must be lucky. The ones from eBay, 1156 auto type, used in my windows are going on three years. But I am running them at 10-11 VDC thought a LM317 regulator.
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: LED lighting

    2manytoyz,
    the problem with the leds is that they slowly rise in current as they are in use. if that 20ma is for a 30ma max it will burn out given enough time and i even had mine set for 15ma and one burned out on me. what is needed is a constant current to prevent that, but i used resistors and that won't stop the rise and hence i had to go with a lower ma and that means a bit less light.
    by your photo the led is giving that halogen a good run seeing it has so very little power consumed. i can tell the uv content in it as the halogen will have more ir content. maybe try adding a cheap red led into the mix to balance it? may not be easily mounted to give even distribution with the white led though, but would make for interesting experimentation.
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: LED lighting
    2manytoyz wrote: »

    0.72 Watt LED light on the left, 20 Watt halogen bulb on the right. I was careful not to exceed the 20 mA rating, and tried a few different mounting methods to mitigate heat buildup.

    The T-series T-1 3/4 "bulbs" only allow for heat removal via the lead wires, and one of them, has a hair-fine bond wire. 20ma @ 3.7V = .074w, which may not seem like much, but in a package with nearly zero heat transfer, it's too much. Other brands of LEDs have a more complete data sheet, and you can see why heat's a problem. You will need LED's w/ some sort of heat spreader, if you use them for illumination.

    Other thing may be, that your meter is off a bit, and your 20ma is really 30 or 35ma?
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • 2manytoyz
    2manytoyz Solar Expert Posts: 373 ✭✭✭
    Re: LED lighting
    mike90045 wrote: »
    The T-series T-1 3/4 "bulbs" only allow for heat removal via the lead wires, and one of them, has a hair-fine bond wire.

    - SNIP-

    Other thing may be, that your meter is off a bit, and your 20ma is really 30 or 35ma?


    I've used these LEDs at work as well (aerospace industry), and the meters used are calibrated every few months. National standards type lab - blah blah, the numbers are accurate. ;)

    I do agree this type of LED lacks any real heat dissipation capability, unlike the Luxeon series. But the ones I purchased were intended for 20 mA, and I ran them at 18 mA (measured after allowing to run for an hour). The specified operating temperature for this LED is -20 to +70 C. I've seen the operating temp curve for other LEDs, and knew this could be an issue. But I was careful to limit the current.

    I don't think there's anything that can be done about T-1 3/4 style LEDs to prevent eventual thermal runaway. Even flashlights, or LED work lights, all seem to die an early death, despite their minimal use.

    Point here is to use a different type. T-1 3/4 just won't work for long. Maybe the solution is to use a Luxeon style. I haven't given up on this project, but was disappointed with the results so far. I was surprised to even find the Luxeon style outdoor lights were no long available on Amazon. They had a big heatsink on them, but those don't apparently last either.
  • lachbus
    lachbus Registered Users Posts: 16
    Re: LED lighting

    I'm using some really really nice LEDs called 'sensibulb' on my boat. They are unfortunately really expensive at $38 each:

    http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|65136|296901|865900&id=865688

    They are giving a very warm light, the closest to incandescent lights I know. I cannot stand the 'white' LEDs or fluorescent, they seem somehow blinding but dark at the same time. Those are wonderful and I'm very pleased with them.
  • john p
    john p Solar Expert Posts: 814 ✭✭✭
    Re: LED lighting

    I have been using CREE brand LEDs .Using 8x1 watt ones 12 hrs a night for 3 years now.. they still work perfect they have the MR16 bases and direct replacement
    Also using 6x 3 w MR16 base that give 270lumens of light.. at least as good as 50 w halogen.. but only draw 4 watts.. they on every night for 5 hrs for 2 years now and still perfect. All work great at batery voltage between 11 and 15 ..:cool:
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: LED lighting

    All, I'm looking for some "puck" style, with some adjustability LED lamps for workbench use, 120 or 12V , anyone have any sources ?
    Also will have a small 30x40 shop that I will need some "night light" so a person can walk at night without falling over the power saw. Any good LED porch lights with dusk-dawn sensor ? I don't know if standard sensors work with 3 watt LEDs
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • kc8adu
    kc8adu Solar Expert Posts: 50 ✭✭✭
    Re: LED lighting
    2manytoyz wrote: »
    Glad it's not just me. I've tried a number of white LEDs, including ones purchased from Digikey at $3.52 (now $4.35) each: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=CMD333UWC-ND

    My goal was to have energy efficient outdoor lighting.

    lights1b.jpg

    0.72 Watt LED light on the left, 20 Watt halogen bulb on the right. I was careful not to exceed the 20 mA rating, and tried a few different mounting methods to mitigate heat buildup. The results were the same. In a matter of months, they slowly would burn out. These LEDs are rated in the tens of thousands of hours. But at 6 hours a night, they all died in a matter of months. The power source was my battery bank, so very clean and stable power.

    My next option was to buy a commercially available product, rather than build my own. But after more research, feedback from buyers shows that those products faired no better. One such review here: http://www.amazon.com/review/product/B000M1A62O/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_summary?_encoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

    I'm beginning to believe all of the white LEDs are imported from China, based on ads from Chinese company's promoting their replacement LED products.

    This probably also explains why replacement LED lights with MR16 bases aren't available at Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes, etc.

    So I'm sticking with CFL lighting for now. These run fine from a MSW inverter, no buzz, no flicker, no different than running on grid power. I keep waiting for the breakthrough...

    wow!!!
    $4.35 ea for 5mm led's that still dont last.
    i can get nichia gs for about$1 ea and they have much better lumen maintainence.
    i saw some loa units in sams club last week that claimed to be made in usa.
    they had nichia led's so maybe they will do better.
    i wont bother to test them though as my findings echo everyone elses.lights of america (loa)=garbage.
  • paulstamser
    paulstamser Solar Expert Posts: 86 ✭✭✭
    Re: LED lighting

    Online I found some 12 volt white LED lights with car type 2-prong accessory light sockets. I don't recall how many watts they use but 2 over my kitchen table and 3 over my stove and sink work great. Also one by my stairs and another for a reading in bed light. All I had to do was pop out the old 12 volt car bulbs and put in the LEDs. The beam is rather directed/focused. They do use less power. Cost was $10 per pair. No doubt made in China.

    The only problem so far is that in one bulb three of the LEDs don't work, but all the others in the bulb do so I use that one as a reading light.
  • 2manytoyz
    2manytoyz Solar Expert Posts: 373 ✭✭✭
    Re: LED lighting
    john p wrote: »
    I have been using CREE brand LEDs .Using 8x1 watt ones 12 hrs a night for 3 years now.. they still work perfect they have the MR16 bases and direct replacement
    Also using 6x 3 w MR16 base that give 270lumens of light.. at least as good as 50 w halogen.. but only draw 4 watts.. they on every night for 5 hrs for 2 years now and still perfect. All work great at batery voltage between 11 and 15 ..:cool:

    Thanks for the tip. I'll be looking for these...
  • LBergman
    LBergman Solar Expert Posts: 42
    Re: LED lighting

    Just thought I'd report an update here on those cheap LED lights available at Menards. The one I bought has now failed. It'll come on for a couple seconds, then quickly go out. For the first minute it'll blink on and off a few times before staying off. I think these might be made by the same company that makes the cheap CFLs they sell (Feit). I wasn't impressed by the longevity of their CFLs either.
    LBergman wrote: »
    I bought one of those bulbs at Menards a couple weeks ago. It was the globe-style R25 one with 28 LEDs, meant for vanity use. For $9, I thought I'd give it a try. I installed it next to a globe-style 25w (equiv) CFL bulb in the same fixture to compare the lighting. I would say the light output doesn't quite equal the CFL, perhaps being somewhere around 20 watts. But it only uses 1 watt compared to 7 watts for the CFL.
  • gweedo
    gweedo Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭✭
    Re: LED lighting

    We put CREE LR6s rated at 2700k in our kitchen / office. Pricey - Put in 8 @ $90 each, but really great light, dimmable, and, according to the math, pay back in about 3 years and should last 25.

    The math behind the savings: They replaced 65watt floods with 12watt LED. They are much brighter, too. We often run them at 50-60% on the dimmer. So, we're using more like 8watts a piece.

    Since they only run 12w, if you want to dim them properly you need to either have 4 or more on the circuit with a standard dimmer or get a magnetic low voltage dimmer.

    The first thing we noticed was the lack of heat from the lights. Also, when they dim, unlike incandescent, their color doesn't change. It's eerie at first, but you get used to it. We're very happy with them so far... it's only been 3 months, though.. so - who knows...

    Anyway... here's a before and after pic during install, and then another pic of what the kitchen looks like at night running everything full blast.
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,728 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: LED lighting

    Thanks Gweedo,

    I am getting closer to liking the overall color of the mixed color LED's. How many color temperatures were available? Were they brighter than the incandecents you had? If you had 3 on a standard dimmer would they just not dim all the way?

    Too many questions......
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: LED lighting

    Interesting ... Gweedo where did you source them?

    Eric
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • gweedo
    gweedo Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭✭
    Re: LED lighting

    Dave... actually same questions I had before I bought them :)

    2 Color Temps available that I know of: 2700k and 3500k. Obviously the 2700k are closer to the "feel / warmth" of an incandescent. I'm not 100% sure, but it's my understanding that basically it's the mix of the red and yellow LEDs that they add in that give it this color change.

    Regarding brightness, I would say that they are about 10-15% brighter. We hardly ever use them at full blast.

    Dimming: I actually have 3 on a standard Lutron dimmer for my office side of the kitchen... What happens is that as you dim to about 50% and start to get really weird flickering, making it unusable. I guess it makes sense since there are only 36watts total load on the dimmer. On the other dimmer I have 5 and I can dim to 30% before they all just shut off. According to the docs on the site and other forums I've read this does not hurt the lights at all.

    More misc info: They have a wider flood than the incandescent floods with baffle trim. It's a slight bit harsher on the eyes to look directly at them, but it's not something that bothered me other than when we first put them in. We have an eight foot ceiling in the kitchen. I've read that others like them just as well in their 10 foot ceiling, but the flood range is so wide they can be a bit too wide for really high ceilings.

    Eric / westbranch...

    I sourced them from some local guys here, WAM Home Center... Here' s a direct link to the products: http://www.wamhomecenter.com/productcart/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=3343

    The irony is that these guys are apparently one of the cheapest nationwide to buy from. I still had to pay shipping though... maybe it's factory drop... who knows.

    The light has been great, power usage lowered, and the biggest thing for us is the lack of heat. We had 8 floods on the in kitchen and when we cooked it got unbearable.

    Take it easy...

    Rob
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,728 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: LED lighting

    Thanks Gweedo.

    I have 3 15 watt fluorescents on a lutron dimmer and they do the same thing below 50%.

    I am hoping to increase the output of light and these may do it. I assume they come on instantly compared to the warm-up of a fluorescent?
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • gweedo
    gweedo Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭✭
    Re: LED lighting
    I am hoping to increase the output of light and these may do it. I assume they come on instantly compared to the warm-up of a fluorescent?

    Definitely Instant on - no warm up phase like the CFLs.. at first they actually spike a little bit bright if they are dimmed. If not dimmed, no light spike. It's not a huge spike, just noticeable.