New Guy from Missouri - Part1

Joer · July 2009

Hello group!

I've been lerking for a while and reading a lot. Getting closer everyday to a dream of being the first in the area of putting in solar. First I'd like to get my system designed, bought , and installed and in the effort learn enough to maybe do others.

1st. I see a few places in Florida and Colorado where a person can take instructor led and online classes to learn more and was wondering if anyone has a suggestion or who to stay away from. Never to old to learn.

2nd. My research so far says: In the last 12 months I have used a total of 51,109 kWh or 4,259 month according to the last 12 electric bills. This is a total for 1 house, 1 shop, and 1 barn each with their own meter. Rates on the bill from the coop is as follows: .1340 for first 150 kWh then .0675. Of course the rate went up in June and are not reflected in those bills. New rates are: .1461 first 150kWh and .0736 which will equate out for the next twelve months to $4590.37 / year if I have no more increases...;-)

3rd. I looked at hundreds of system (OK maybe 25 - 30) and see the cost around $42,000.00 installed or about $30,000.00 if I install it. Simple math says: $42k divided by $4590 = 9.15 years to pay back or $30k divided by $4590 = 6.54 years assuming no increases. (Since there probably will be I'm guess right at 6 years)

4th. I have the application from the coop in hand and of course they want the plans so they can approve them in advance. Which I think is great. Safety above all else. I would like to do the physical install (nuts and bolts) then have either a certified installer or certified electrician do all the final with the coops blessing right beside him / her all the way. No screwup, no problems, do it right the first time.

5th. Being in the computer business for 33 years presents the another problem. I know from experience the longer I wait the more computer I can get and the price will be lower. I have to assume the same is true with solar. I see black solar on the horizon with a hugh efficiency rating. (Worth the wait?) New solar plants being built and coming on line. Maybe a significiant price drop coming with production doubling or tripling?

Lastly, is now a good time to look at a new business model? Say, the solar energy business model. No one in this half of the state?????? I'll have a good demo unit!

With that in mind I'll sign off and not leave any of my naked iguana pictures or tell you about how Al Gore is saving the world.

Just thanks in advance for any words of wisdom you may bistow upon me.

Joer

icarus · July 2009

Re: New Guy from Missouri - Part1

Joer,

Welcome to the site.

I feel competent to comment on only one or two issue that you mentioned.

"5th. Being in the computer business for 33 years presents the another problem. I know from experience the longer I wait the more computer I can get and the price will be lower. I have to assume the same is true with solar. I see black solar on the horizon with a hugh efficiency rating. (Worth the wait?) New solar plants being built and coming on line. Maybe a significiant price drop coming with production doubling or tripling?"

I don't think the Pv market is similar in that way to the computer industry. If that were the case we would have $.01 a watt panels and $5 inverters by now. The cost has stayed relatively constant over the years,, with the trend being SLOWY down. Right now Pv module prices are lower than they have ever been. Think that this is largely due to the worldwide recession rather than some great leap in production efficiency. I think there is an overcapacity of production out there now chasing lower demand driving prices down. If the world economy turns around and the price of energy begins to climb again (which I think it will) you will see Pv demand go up, along with prices. I suspect that there are others who are better qualified to comment on the real dollars and cents.

What is most important in my opinion is before you buy any Pv system you do as much homework as you can so as to avoid the "ready, fire, aim" syndrome that seems to affect too many folks wanting to do solar.

The second most (and maybe the most,,,) important thing is to do as much conservation as you can to reduce your net consumption. The general rule of thumb is that for every $1 you spend on conservation you will save ~$10 in Pv costs.

I advise folks,, do conservation first,, followed by some more conservation,, and then followed by still more conservation. Then I suggest to look at solar hot water, active and passive solar heat and only then begin to invest in Pv. Others have differing opinions, but it doesn't make sense in my mind to spend $X on Pv to power 60 watts of incandescent bulbs, if you could achieve the same result by spending a bit on CFL bulbs,, and then only have to spend ~$1/4X to power that bulb. Same goes for every aspect of consumption.

Good luck, This site is populated by some very smart folks who have forgotten more about RE than most of us will ever know! It is a great resource for us so that we don't have to reinvent the wheel on each project.

Tony

TnAndy · July 2009

Re: New Guy from Missouri - Part1

Welcome Joer,

I'm a bit confused on your electrical cost.....150kwhr @ 0.1461 = $21.92 and the remaining (51,109-150) 50,959 @ 0.0736 = $3750 for a total of $3772 adding the two....not $4590.

You didn't say in your post what size system you are looking at installing, but from your calculations on payback, you seem to indicate that 30k in equipment will replace 51,000Kwhrs.......and I can tell you no way, no how that is going to happen.

A fixed array system will produce maybe 1000-1200kwhrs ANNUALLY per kw of PV in your location.....meaning you're going to need about a 40-50kw system of fixed panels, or maybe using dual axis tracking , you might cut it to 30kw (maybe). At the low end of $6/watt installed price, you're looking at $180,000.....and self installed, probably $150,000....

Sooooo......unless I'm missing something bigtime here, you need to re-visit your figures.

Sorry for the bad news.....but better you understand that going in that after you get a $42,000 system in place and find out it only does 1/10 to 1/8 your current use.

Joer · July 2009

Re: New Guy from Missouri - Part1

Thanks for the Welcome,

Icarus you posted first so here goes:

5th: Price is stable, maybe dropping slightly. But do more homework.
No sense waiting for the big drop. Got it. Doing more research has also eliminated black

silicon.

Conservation: I'm close. Fairly new house with new appliances and 6" walls, 16" of attic

insulation, Anderson Thermal Pane Windows and doors, set back thermostats, only two people

who always play the game of turning off lights and shutting down rooms not in use. This house

is two times bigger than the last with 25% less electric use. I could give up more creature

comforts but not likely. We have added power strips to our 1 tv and 1 computer. (Not five tvs

and 5 computers.) I do have a brochure from a young man who does energy audits ("Home

Performance Assessments") and will consider the audit. On and on and on. That was the

starting place.

Thanks for the great advise.

Now for Tandy:

My wife says that I have been in computers too long and abbreviate my sentences to much. So

I'll attach the spreadsheet (if I can figure it out) and show you where the numbers came from.
Maybe I am asking the question backward? How much energy will 25 / 200watt panels produce

in a month or year in real numbers in the field. Say strung down my shop roof facing south?

Again, thanks in advance for the great advise.

Joer

BB. · July 2009

Re: New Guy from Missouri - Part1

I am not sold on home energy audits... We had one poster here that thought the contractors did not know anything (IIRC).

You know your home--air leaks, hot/cold spots, how much insulation, how much power you burn.

5kWhrs per month is a lot of power... But that includes shop and barn.

5,000 kWhrs per month * 1,000 watts/kWatt * 1/30 days per month * 1/24 hours per day = 6,944 watts 24 hours per day, 7 days a week...

A "typical" American home is around 1,000 kWhrs per month... In a temperate climate with no A/C (and natural gas for heating/cooking/etc.) and a family of four, I can get mine home down to ~250 kWhrs per month.

For somebody in hot/humid regions--1,500-2,500 kWhrs per month is not unusual.

In your case, you are consuming a lot of power--and worrying about a 100 watts here or there is about 2% of your overall usage.

In your area, you are paying around $0.10 or so per kwhr average... In my area, you would be paying closer to $0.60 per kWhr.

So, either you accept what you are using (shop and barn burn energy to do their jobs)--or you ask the question, after Cap and Trade passes--what would you do if you had to pay $0.60 per kWhr for electricity? Obviously, you have some heavy power use going on there (irrigation, processing, ???).

Your question about how much power would 25*200Watt of solar Grid Tied panels produce... Go to the PV Watts web site and enter 5 kWatt of solar panels, and take the defaults for the city closest to you (and similar weather patterns). I will pick Columbia:

[FONT=Fixedsys]Results

Month
Solar Radiation (kWh/m2/day)
AC Energy (kWh) 
Energy Value ($ at 7.0 ¢/kWh)

1      3.69          459        32.13   
2      4.73          517        36.19   
3      5.10          590        41.30   
4      5.71          620        43.40   
5      5.58          602        42.14   
6      6.04          624        43.68   
7      5.97          622        43.54   
8      6.03          628        43.96   
9      5.47          575        40.25   
10     5.08          573        40.11   
11     3.56          403        28.21   
12     3.23          391        27.37   
========================================
Year 5.02 hrs sun   6603 kWhrs $462.21 [/FONT]

So, roughly, that much GT solar would account for a bit more than 1/10th of your yearly power needs... And would cost you around $30-$50k, less 30% Federal Tax Credit.

-Bill

TnAndy · July 2009

Re: New Guy from Missouri - Part1

PV watts and my 'back of the napkin' figures when I didn't know what size system you were talking about agree.....about 1/10 to 1/8 of your current use.

jeffkruse · July 2009

Re: New Guy from Missouri - Part1

I don't understand. Are you realy using 140KWH a day? That seems like an awful lot for two people. Is it possible your only using 14KWH a day? If so then your 25 200W pannels would work great.

BB. · July 2009

Re: New Guy from Missouri - Part1

Jeff,

Joer did post a .TXT file of his usage... The home portion ranges from 1,500 to 3,000 kWhrs per month or so--probably within average use for his region with an all electric home (if that is what he has).

Still a lot of power, but it appears that they have electric heating (+hot water?) and cooling--which can send the usage sky high (compared to us others who have natural gas and no A/C).

In the end, Joer is the only one here that knows anything about his home/property. And can decide if the power being used is consistent with his needs or not.

In the end, solar PV is not going to save him any money unless his kWhr rate doubles or triples in the near future (it may if Cap and Trade passes). Even solar hot water is not going to save him much with such low electric rates.

Conservation is going to be the best place to start for his project. And it must address the large loads first--The small stuff (TV and Computer) are just not enough power to even worry about at this time.

-Bill

Joer · July 2009

Re: New Guy from Missouri - Part1

WOW! Thanks for the replys!

The .txt file is the actual figures taken from my electric bills.

With your electric rates at .60 compared to my .11 I feel like I'm blessed.

I do have an all electric home. (Live out in National Forest on 80 acres.) So natural gas will never get here, or DSL, cable, etc. Propane is an option. Just never like gas and the idea it can blow up!

Large loads?? The oven, stovetop, dryer, hot water heater are about 8 years old. I spent a little extra up front to get a little higher energy star rating figuring in the long run it would save a little money. Electric heat, A/c a lot in summer (90 degrees with 95% humidity) but use a pellet stove a lot in winter and just run the fan to circulate the heat around the house +(illiminate cold spots).

So I'm looking at a $500,000.00 systemthat would take about 100 years to pay for it self it rates don't rise (less since we all know they will rise)?

And as usual, thanks for the comments!

PS I've been reading a document called The Smart Grid: an intoduction published for The US Department of Energy and ran accross a comment you guys might like.

"10% of all generation assetts and 25% of all distribution infrastructure are required less than 400 hours per year roughly 5% of the time."

Regards,
Joer

BB. · July 2009

Re: New Guy from Missouri - Part1

By the way, here is a link to the DOE's Smart Grid website (you may have to click down a link or two to get the actual PDF file)...

Joer--The $0.60 per kWhr is the week day afternoon rates for summer Time of Use metering... The average flat rate would be around $0.44 for residential usage that high.

But just think--You are using ~10x the electricity and my rate is ~10x yours... If our (California's) infection spreads your directly--the difference between my usage and your would, litterally, be 100x between our two homes.

My home in your place ~225 kWhrs per month * $0.08 = $18 per month

Your home on my peak rates ~2,500 kWhrs per month * $0.60 = $1,500 per month

Now--I am "cheating" a bit... Your rates for low usage are higher than $0.08 per kWhr, and my Peak rates are only noon-6pm weekdays.

But--it does give you an upper bound of how much you could justifiably spend (~$1,500 per month or $18,000 per year, may be $80,000 over 5 years) on conservation/alternative energy measures...

For me... Because I did work at conservation and "suffer" our few weeks of 90+ weather without A/C, and I have choosen to use Time of Use metering--I can actually buy power (in California) for a bit less than ($0.09 per kWhr)--as long as I buy it at off-peak, and I use less than ~300 kWhrs per month of it (with my GT solar array--I actually do much better--but that is for another discusssion about higher Kalifornia math :roll: ).

Here is a nice little website (from Hearth.com) that lets you compare the heating costs between fuels.

Plug in $0.07 per kWhr for electricity, the only thing cheaper to heat with than electricity would be wood or coal. Natural gas (which you cannot get) is a wash--and propane at $2.90 per gallon is 2x the cost for the same amount of heat.

You can look at reducing your heating and A/C loads (more efficient A/C, ground or water sourced heat pump, desuperheater to take the A/C and make hot water, better shading of windows/roof/etc.)--and those will help.

But Solar itself is not going to do much for you (at this time).

-Bill

icarus · July 2009

Re: New Guy from Missouri - Part1

Joer,

I do understand your reticence about gas,, but on a per BTU basis, propane for heat generating appliances (heat, water heat, dryer, cooking) is in most cases way cheaper than electricity. Consult your local propane supplier for an average cost.

While all gas (nat. or Lp) if it is properly designed, and installed it can be very safe. I would hazard to guess that there are way more house fires due to electrical fires than due to gas fires.

Having used and installed gas piping for ~40 years, the biggest single issue is proper installation. With proper installation, plus a gas detector system (like a smoke detector) systems can be made very safe.

Moving these big draw items to Propane, coupled with adding efficiencies would reduce your Pv cost considerably. For example a good modern demand water heater will use ~50% as much propane as an older gas water heater net/net. Couple it to a simple solar preheat system and the use can drop off as much as 100%. (You could do that with an electric heater,, but an electric demand heater draws tons of current!)

An other idea for conservation, especially in your ac rich climate, is to use a water transfer heat pump so that the waste heat generated by the ac would heat your domestic hot water. This has the added benefit of not only reducing your hot water,, but it also makes your ac run more efficiently.

Clearly,, you are not going to do Pv to reduce your electricity cast to zero as presently configured,, but some changes around the edges will get you significantly closer.

Good luck,

Tony

BB. · July 2009

Re: New Guy from Missouri - Part1

Tony,

Ran the numbers using the Hearth.com fuel cost calculator--and at $0.07 per kWhr vs $2.90 a gallon for propane--Useful BTU cost for electricity is 1/2 the cost of propane (guessing at his fuel prices).

With "cheap electric power"--short of burning wood or coal--there is nothing else that does better (even natural gas--it it where even possible for Joer).

-Bill

Solar Guppy · July 2009

Re: New Guy from Missouri - Part1

Some suggestions ...

First, replace the AC with a ground based Geo-thermal heat pump ... that will cut possibly by 2/3 rds the AC demand and even more in the cool months as the COP of Geo-thermal can be in the 4X range as compared to base board resistive heating. Cost wise for a top notch system would be in the 10K range

Install Solar Thermal for Hot water. typical payback is 2-3 years, simply the most attractive financially of all the solar alternatives, 6-8k turnkey.

Now how is the shop heated and cooled ? if all electric, same as above. You need to get any building that uses the electric for heat/cooling well insulated, you mentioned the home, what about the shop or barn, you should have R19 ( walls ) R40 Roof as minimum targets.

You should be able to make a sizable reduction in the demand, and you will get tax credits for doing the improvements, but solar electric makes no economic sense what-so-ever

icarus · July 2009

Re: New Guy from Missouri - Part1

Bill,

Your point is well taken. It is tough to conserve when energy is cheap. I think the price of Propane is closer to ~$2.00 nationally on average now,, but of course is quite volatile.

T

TnAndy · July 2009

Re: New Guy from Missouri - Part1

Joer,

PROPANE, baby...PROPANE.

I too built an "all electric" ( except for the heat, which was wood from day one ), and we switched to propane water heating about 10 years ago after a 2 week electrical outage......I have a decent sized generator, but it is all it can do to run refrigeration + electric hot water....so we switched to propane.....BEST MOVE EVER.....never run out of hot water, and it doesn't take enough propane annually to talk about...maybe 75 gallons/yr. REALLY nice thing about propane is the stuff will store about forever. I have a 500gal underground, and just bought a couple of used 500gallon above ground tanks I plan to plumb into the same line from the underground...and will have a total of 1150gallons capacity when I'm done ( they will fill the underground tank to 90% and the above ground ones to 80% ).

My kitchen remodel is up next, and we're going propane on the stove, dryer, as well as installing a wood cookstove. My goal is to get the electric down to 300-400kw/hrs month from out current 900 average. We have 3 freezers, so it may not happen, but that's my goal. A new fridge alone will cut 50kwhrs/month off the one we have now....the older side by side units use 100/mo, and the new ones of the same size about 1/2 that.....

dwh · July 2009

Re: New Guy from Missouri - Part1

icarus wrote: »

Bill,

Your point is well taken. It is tough to conserve when energy is cheap. I think the price of Propane is closer to ~$2.00 nationally on average now,, but of course is quite volatile.

T

I just finally got around to having the hoses made to fix the propane system on the old camper van I bought. Stuck on a new two-stage regulator while I was at it.

Got the tank filled this morning - 4.9 gallons, but Trans-Gas Propane has a 5 gallon minimum - which cost me $6.35 USD (5 x $1.27 per gallon). They also made the hoses for me - 38 bucks and change for two custom made.

http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=trans-gas+propane&near=West+Hollywood,+CA&fb=1&split=1&gl=us&cid=0,0,1957819012430954647&ei=aKJmSs75BYrUsQOk6ZHjDg&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=image&resnum=1

On a plus note; Leak checked everything and no leaks, so I started everything up and it all works:

Norcold 323 3-way fridge (tested on gas, not yet on DC or AC).
Suburban NT-12SE furnace (will eventually get a Dinosaur fan control board).
Suburban RV-30 water heater (will eventually be replaced with 6 gallon with direct spark).
Wedgewood T-2122 3-burner plus oven (man, that thing makes HEAT).

BB. · July 2009

Re: New Guy from Missouri - Part1

That sounds down right reasonable! I don't buy much propane--so I was expecting it to track the price of gasoline. I am going to have to shop around more as I have a couple tanks to refill.

-Bill

dwh · July 2009

Re: New Guy from Missouri - Part1

BB. wrote: »

That sounds down right reasonable! I don't buy much propane--so I was expecting it to track the price of gasoline. I am going to have to shop around more as I have a couple tanks to refill.

-Bill

Definitely do that - I think U-Haul wanted 2.59 the last time I passed by one and saw a price sign about a month ago. TGP is probably the company that goes out and fills U-Haul's tanks.

TGP also has a bunch of locations - IIRC...they've done some weird map thing on their site now when you click the locations link...it didn't used to do that, it used to list the locations.

EDIT: Holey Moley! Now I'm a "Solar Superstar"! I just noticed. I don't *feel* any different...

Joer · July 2009

Re: New Guy from Missouri - Part1

Hello again Forum:

To answer a few questions:

The Shop:

The shop only has the office, bathroom, and store room heated / air. But I have computers running all the time. (Doing updates / servicing, etc) Small and well insulated. North wall over 1 foot thick.

Whole shop is also insulated including garage door. But no heat or air out there.

The shop floor has all 8' flourscents. But while working in there all sorts of tools run from time to time. Usually only by one person but 5 days a week in the winter. Tools run any where from welders, drills, grinders, air compressor, etc.

Admitedly it has the newest furnace but also the cheapest. Seer rating is in the toilet. That could be a big saver.

New fridge at the house could save about $130.00 a year (according to energy star) so its worth replacing. Problem is I would move it out to the shop and replace that one that is even older. It stores beer so its not going away!

Ground Source:

Ground source might be an option but I'd have to calculate it against the $.0736 price of electricity and see how many years for pay back.

Propane:
This site has Missouri Propane at its current (Mar 09) price of $1.86 / gallon.
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/wprre334w.htm

Now remember my electric is at $.0736 / kWhr

Run those numbers here:
Fuel Cost Comparison site:
http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/fuel_cost_comparison_calculator/?id=47_0_1_0_M7

AND THE RESULTS ARE.................

Electric at $19.95 and Propane at $1,352.00

Someone else needs to look theirs up and run it. Maybe the calculator is off????

If not I'll stick with my electric. As you can see even in the winter my rates never get to high. But people all around me are talking about $300 and $400 monthly propane bills.

In conclusion:

Conservation is my best bet. Solar is OUT. Propane is out. Ground source is still on the table. And I think Ill buy one of the boxes you plug appliances into and track the electric usage. Move it around from day to day and come up with a list of the energy users. One that comes to mind is a small pump the runs 24/7 that circulated the hot water throughout the house. (I want hot water on the opposite end of the house when I turn on the faucet, not after running the water for three minutes.) But if it cost $25.00 month to run, maybe I'll wait th three minutes.

Thanks for everything,

Regrads,

Joer

Cariboocoot · July 2009

Re: New Guy from Missouri - Part1

If you're seriously into cooking, propane or NG is infinitely superior to electric. You get a much more controlled and steady heat with a flame than an on/off/on heating element.
Just thought I'd mention it.

My point being: not all the benefits of choosing one thing over another come down to "this is cheaper."

BB. · July 2009

Re: New Guy from Missouri - Part1

Joer wrote: »

Run those numbers here:
Fuel Cost Comparison site:
http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/fuel_cost_comparison_calculator/?id=47_0_1_0_M7

AND THE RESULTS ARE.................

Electric at $19.95 and Propane at $1,352.00

Someone else needs to look theirs up and run it. Maybe the calculator is off????

I believe the mistake is that the entry for Electricity is already in "CENTS" -- and you probably put in "DOLLARS" (i.e., put in "7" instead of "0.07" in the data field).

Regarding your energy usage--For the "small stuff" a Kill-A-Watt meter can be very helpful...

What usually happens is people worry about the Microwave or the Air Compressor--but may run those only a few minutes per hour.

Whereas those computers in the back office are running 24x7 and (can) end up taking several times the $$$ worth of power per month vs the "big electrical devices" do. Reviewing the computers you have now for power usage, on-time, and vs the new Energy Star ones coming out now--may be interesting (at $0.07 per kWhr--still may not be worth replacing at this time).

In the winter, the "extra" heat from the computers and such is not a bad thing--"free" heat (or at least, the waste heat is doing something good for you)... In the summer, anything that generates waste heat is bad because you end up spending another ~1/3 of the original electrical bill to pay for the A/C to pump the heat back outside.

Similar issues with the hot water circulation pump--you are pumping heat into your home by circulating the hot water--even in summer. How much this hurts you--I don't know--but if the pipes are poorly insulated--they can be just like another radiant heater. Using a timer to only power the pump, when you think you may need it--may help.

Or, perhaps, a small, well insulated electric water heater, connected to the cold water pipe, at the bathroom sink at the far end of the home (for your 1-2 gallons of immediate need) would be a good compromise. Having to waste several gallons of "formerly" hot water is not saving you money either.

-Bill

icarus · July 2009

Re: New Guy from Missouri - Part1

Just to run the numbers with the proper numbers,, $.07 for elect. and $1.80 for LP

$20.51 for elect, $26.47 for LP. per million BTUs delivered (76% ef) I would argue that by using 90+ ef appliances the numbers are essentially a wash.

http://www.hearth.com/fuelcalc/oil.php

My personal feeling is that as the OP has concluded, his best solution is conservation. (I would really look at the wisdom of keeping an old Beer fridge,, try to get two new ones, as the pay off will be quite quick.) If this were me, I would convert to LP demand water heat to follow either water capture heat pump, or solar pre-heat. Converting the space heat to Lp would probably make little sense, but converting to higher ef heat pump would. I like demand propane hot water even if on simple equation it may seem more expensive. The real advantages are that it is endless (if there is gas in the tank), there are no stand buy losses and they start up heat is quick.

I would also convert all cooking to LP. While in this equation the cost per BTU is about a wash,, the reality is that the Lp becomes more efficient as it gets hot right away, instead of a significant time that it takes electric elements to come up to temp. In addition, gas would be my preferred fuel due to it's adjustable nature. (This assumes that I cook,, I don't! Susan does however!)

Then, after doing all the conservation things (remember the current tax incentives to conserve making the bottom line easier to justify!) then I would revisit the Pv option and see about building a grid tie system.

The one issue that IS going to be true, whether it is this year or in five years, is the price of all energy is going to go up. To take advantage(s) of the tax breaks, current low alternative pricings now might make much more sense if you knew that over the life span of the hardware, the price of the energy to run them would double for example. (Or the amount that the Pv would generate in$$.)

Good luck, keep going forward,

Tony

mikeo · July 2009

Re: New Guy from Missouri - Part1

Just to run the numbers with the proper numbers,, $.07 for elect. and $1.80 for LP

The problem with propane is that it is relativity cheap now. The price is likely to jump up past the peak pricing of a year ago which approached $3.00 a gallon in this part of the US. I live on the edge of the Fayetteville shale play and a year ago the gas speculators were paying upwards of $1200/acre for 5 year mineral leases. Since the economy tanked and gas prices fell, the speculators all pulled out. My neighbor that has 1000 acres signed a contract for 1.2 million dollars but they pulled the rug before he got the check. I was waiting for the same deal, but it wouldn't be that much for my 40 acres, but still a good chunk of change. For this reason, I would shy away from LP as it is an unregulated fuel source and we have seen how the global energy companies have our best interest at heart . Yes electricity will go up too, but at a slower rate due to each state regulating the price. What we can invest to reduce energy consumption now, harness solar and take advantage of the tax credits and breaks may make more since then just looking at current pricing for break even points.

icarus · July 2009

Re: New Guy from Missouri - Part1

Mikeo,

You do make a good point. However, many suppliers have a pre-pay/fix price program much like the heating oil contracts. In many cases it can protect you from artificial (and short lived) price spikes in the short run (annual basis). It is in essence a hedge bet and sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. The price evens out over time as the market absorbs the fluctuations with supply and demand, just like any energy supply.

You are also right that probably the best investment is with conservation and using the current tax structure to get the best bang for the buck. The reality is that ALL energy prices are going to go up. The big question is how fast, how much and when.

I contend that they will go up continually, gradually, and like the frog in the pot we won't care as much as we would if it came all at once. Who would have thought that $3 gas or Propane would be considered "normal"?

I just think that everything we can do to reduce consumption is a win/win on a number of levels, but everyone needs to come to their own "bottom line".

Tony

mike95490 · July 2009

Re: New Guy from Missouri - Part1

Joer wrote: »

One that comes to mind is a small pump the runs 24/7 that circulated the hot water throughout the house. (I want hot water on the opposite end of the house when I turn on the faucet, not after running the water for three minutes.) But if it cost $25.00 month to run, maybe I'll wait th three minutes.

put it on a timer, 6am - 8am, and 5pm - 10 pm ? (or whatever hours make sense)
Are all the pipes for it insulated? (supply & return) Maybe put a thermostat on the pipe, when it gets cold, pump goes on till it gets hot. thermostat & timer?

icarus · July 2009

Re: New Guy from Missouri - Part1

Joer

"Originally Posted by Joer
One that comes to mind is a small pump the runs 24/7 that circulated the hot water throughout the house. (I want hot water on the opposite end of the house when I turn on the faucet, not after running the water for three minutes.) But if it cost $25.00 month to run, maybe I'll wait th three minutes."

There are all kinds of technology out there to solve this problem. One I just heard of is a motion sensor for the bath. It sense when someone comes in the room, fires the circ pump and the demand water heater sending hot water to the faucets so that it is there by the time you fire the shower. It seems like a bit of over kill but there is no reason that systems like this cannot be used, it is largely a question of how much parasitic energy you are willing to burn.

A better solution in my mind would be to have multiple point of use water heaters. A small 1 gallon under the sink for washing and shaving for example using electricity since it is only used occasionally. Locating the big demand water heater near(er) to the major use areas like the shower/tub and or kitchen. While it it tradition to put water heaters in garages and basements, there is no reason that a demand water heater can't be placed in closed in or near the bath room or kitchen. Most are sealed combustion units that draw outside air and are power vented so that there is little fear of 02 depletion.

It seems that we have all become accustomed to so many things that lead to energy waste. The simple fact is that large houses come with large(r) energy costs, or at least larger infrastructure costs to save energy (ie multiple water heaters, or circ. systems).

No matter how you cut it, it takes more energy to heat/cool/live in a bigger house than a smaller one.

Tony

Joer · July 2009

Re: New Guy from Missouri - Part1

Hello again,

Thanks for all the "good" advise. It was helpful!

But as with all list the subject eventually goes south. Trips to moon, Flying cars, politics. etc.

I think I'll go back to lerking mode and just gleen information that way.

Thanks again,

Joer

niel · July 2009

Re: New Guy from Missouri - Part1

Joer wrote: »

Hello group!

I've been lerking for a while and reading a lot. Getting closer everyday to a dream of being the first in the area of putting in solar. First I'd like to get my system designed, bought , and installed and in the effort learn enough to maybe do others.

1st. I see a few places in Florida and Colorado where a person can take instructor led and online classes to learn more and was wondering if anyone has a suggestion or who to stay away from. Never to old to learn.

2nd. My research so far says: In the last 12 months I have used a total of 51,109 kWh or 4,259 month according to the last 12 electric bills. This is a total for 1 house, 1 shop, and 1 barn each with their own meter. Rates on the bill from the coop is as follows: .1340 for first 150 kWh then .0675. Of course the rate went up in June and are not reflected in those bills. New rates are: .1461 first 150kWh and .0736 which will equate out for the next twelve months to $4590.37 / year if I have no more increases...;-)

3rd. I looked at hundreds of system (OK maybe 25 - 30) and see the cost around $42,000.00 installed or about $30,000.00 if I install it. Simple math says: $42k divided by $4590 = 9.15 years to pay back or $30k divided by $4590 = 6.54 years assuming no increases. (Since there probably will be I'm guess right at 6 years)

4th. I have the application from the coop in hand and of course they want the plans so they can approve them in advance. Which I think is great. Safety above all else. I would like to do the physical install (nuts and bolts) then have either a certified installer or certified electrician do all the final with the coops blessing right beside him / her all the way. No screwup, no problems, do it right the first time.

5th. Being in the computer business for 33 years presents the another problem. I know from experience the longer I wait the more computer I can get and the price will be lower. I have to assume the same is true with solar. I see black solar on the horizon with a hugh efficiency rating. (Worth the wait?) New solar plants being built and coming on line. Maybe a significiant price drop coming with production doubling or tripling?

Lastly, is now a good time to look at a new business model? Say, the solar energy business model. No one in this half of the state?????? I'll have a good demo unit!

With that in mind I'll sign off and not leave any of my naked iguana pictures or tell you about how Al Gore is saving the world.

Just thanks in advance for any words of wisdom you may bistow upon me.

Joer

i thought it a good idea to revisit what you originally posted. i will give a few of my thoughts for what it's worth.
1> i am not personally familiar with any courses, but you are right that it can't hurt to learn. try something as local or as easy for you to access as possible. i can't say one is better or worse than another though.
2> it seems they do not penalize you for excessive electrical use as the price goes down after the first 150kwh. prices change as you point out, but that incentive to use excesses is still there. it may change one day i'm sure.
3> diy may be a way to cut costs for you and you should follow through with gaining more knowledge firstly to help you do it. getting a payback or making money selling electricity is going to dissapoint if those are the reasons for getting a system.
4> the electrician is also a good idea if you get one that is familiar enough with this stuff. while getting familiar with things yourself this will afford you time to locate a good electrician. time is on your side so don't hurry things along to the point of having the ready, fire, aim syndrome. also some installers will allow you to do some of the install and cut you a price break while they do the permits and such. the coop will still be there so don't rush things too fastly. this way you are more apt to get what you are wanting and maybe cheaper.
5> prices did drop some on solar, but if you are thinking the price will drop drastically and/or soon then i wouldn't count on it. when higher efficient pvs come out they usually have a higher premium price tag to match it. production levels in the us i can't say are rising and i doubt many new businesses that are going to manufacture these things will be seen. progress has a pricetag and politicians basically make you pay for lip service. not much is really happening and if you go into business for yourself don't expect to make lots of money legitimately. go ahead though and get a feel for things by getting your feet wet. we all believe it to be viable for the future though and there is a market.
i don't know if my comments are any better to you than what has already been said, but you are right that it deviated too far and thus i redirected it.

BB. · July 2009

Re: New Guy from Missouri - Part1

I am sorry Joer...

It is a fine line between a little fun and heavy handed moderation.

I have moved the political/off-topic posts to their own thread in the "open discussion of energy" forum.

-Bill

New Guy from Missouri - Part1

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