Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

SteveA · July 2009

In my searching of the internet this seems to be one of the best off-grid/power forums i've found so while it may ramble a little i think you all can help me with most of my questions. I'm a control systems engineer so don't be afraid to get technical.

I am in the process of designing a Pole barn that will house trail maintenance equipment in the winter months in the Adirondacks of NY. The purpose is to get these expensive machines out of the weather year round. The property is off the electrical grid with a minimum of $25000 to connect it and probably more. The barn will be heated from December to the end of March. It is remote but gets good cell service so some sort of remote security may also be in our plans via 3G. This is all for a non-profit org with limited funds. We'd like the power to come in around $5-7k

The plans are:
1) 40x60 pole barn, well - insulated with concrete floors and radiant floor heat.
2) The temperature doesn't need to be warm, just enough to melt snow off the machines. I'm thinking 45 to 50 degrees F.
3) There are 2 streams on the property. The first is a high flow low head (about 20ft of drop over about 100ft. Easily 100 GPM) and the other I'm not 100% sure on the flow but I'm guessing around 7-10 GPM and I can get about 70 Feet of head over 500 feet of pipe. I am looking first at micro hydro to generate the power then wind if I can't get the proper permits for the hydro (we have lots of wind up on the mountain, especially since we're going to be a winter use facility).
4) 3G internet for security, monitoring, and webcams since it's remote and unmanned. There will be significant snowmobile traffic near the building in the winter so security will need to be present in some form to protect our barn and $150,000+ in equipment.

For heat I plan on 1 zone radiant to warm the slab using a closed loop, propylene glycol mix, and either a Polaris type water heater or on demand water heat for the "boiler". Use a low wattage DC circulation pump. Add a wood stove or salamander for those times when we might need to warm it up a lot.

For power I'm looking at a stand-by generator (what brands?) to charge a battery bank (what voltage???) with an auto start charge controller initially. When the money is available we'll add in either a micro hydro or wind generator to lower the need for the genny. Propane delivery will not be a problem as there will be a plowed road.

The only power loads I can think of now are the circulation pump and water heater (whatever is required by that, fan???), some lighting that will not be on that much (just enough to pre and post-trip the groomers). and some sort of 3G router and IP security cams. should we require any bigger loads we'll fire up the generator.

Now, all that said, what I need is equipment and vendor recommendations. Xantrex seems to be the best stuff and their XW line looks perfect but pricey and probably overkill for my application. Is there something that will meet my needs without such a heavy duty inverter. I like their genny auto start module and want some thing like that.

Finally i have a concern about getting my hydro power back to the barn. It could be upwards of 500 feet of wire.

How about Lighting for this 40x60 barn with at least a 25' ceiling? Needs to be low consumption but have enough light available to see to do routine maintenance on the sno-cats.

What about security. I don't know where to start but they make 3g Routers right? then just standard IP cameras. I want to have a secure website that I can log into and check on the property (motion activated cams that can log and store images or even a DVR locally). We'd also like to show a webcam of the area for the flatlanders that want to come up and enjoy the snow

icarus · July 2009

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

Steve,

Welcome to the forum.

It sounds like a cool project.

First and foremost, consider EVERY avenue for conservation. For every $1 spend on conservation it will save somewhere in the $5-10 range in RE costs depending on how you go.

I would first get a handle on your loads. Designing any system HAS to start with the loads or else you end up with a system that is not always well put together. As you are figuring your loads, be ruthless in your assumptions in that at every case OVER estimate your loads. Loads WILL grow with time and it is best to design a system that you can grow into without having to start all over again. (Particularly with charge controllers and battery banks).

Clearly, if you can get your hydro to work 24/7 365 that would be the preferred alternative as it is completely predictable. It does come with infrastructure complications however, and perhaps most importantly freeze protection issues. None of which can't be solved but they do add a layer(s) of complication and cost.

As for wind, most folks here are not in much favour of small scale wind. Many have found that it significantly under performs relative to it's advertised output, AND most people dramatically over estimate the amount of wind they really get on a daily/weekly/monthly basis.

I assume that the hydronic heating is going to be heated with Propane or oil? If this is the case it will be quite simple to run such a system off of Re. If you have to generate the BTUs from your Re then that is a very different situation. Unless you have way more hydro potential than I'm guessing then anything that uses resistance heat is going to probably be a no go from any battery based Re system.

Keep in mind that battery based systems cost, on average about twice what a similar sized grid tie system would, largely due to the battery cost. Since the batteries are a significant system life/cycle cost it is important to size the properly and use the properly to maximize their life and minimize their life cycle cost.

One other thought just to get this discussion started, consider using your generator for shop lighting/ tool use during times of occupancy. You can coordinate that generator run time with battery charging needs.

In other words,, if the Re system needs to heat/secure etc the building 18 hours a day, but for 6 hours a day someone is in working and needs lights, shop tools, etc, set your system requirements up to allow for significant charging to happen from the genny at the same time. This would allow the genny to run near peak efficiency saving fuel, reduce system cost by not having to light the work lights from the Re system etc.

This all gets back to page one, spend a lot of time figuring your loads. Get back to us and we (others, not me so much) can get back with some good suggestions. There are some VERY smart folks here, who have been there, done that. Some have forgotten more about Re than most of us will know. As a result, you don't have to reinvent the wheel with every turn.

Good luck,, and welcome to the forum,

Tony

mike95490 · July 2009

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

You might want to look at this as a heat source, if you have sun.

SolarShed
500 gal storage @ 180F
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SpaceHeating/SolarShed/solarshed.htm
http://tinyurl.com/6hypyt

maybe scale it up as needed, to keep the ice melted, you only need 50F, not 80. I'm guessing double the collector size would be a start.

PV could run the pump.

Slappy · July 2009

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

hopefully im not speaking out of turn here. But on the closed loop system...(For heat I plan on 1 zone radiant to warm the slab using a closed loop, propylene glycol mix, and either a Polaris type water heater or on demand water heat for the "boiler". Use a low wattage DC circulation pump. Add a wood stove or salamander for those times when we might need to warm it up a lot.)Have you considered using geo-therm? Thats where you lay poly pipe under ground to draw/transfer the heat from the earth. But I dont know the land lay-out, as in trees/rocks/frost line/etc.....just get a trencher and put the stinger straight down, and trench a few hundred yrds "or what length you might think that might work the best", on which way you want to do it, as in 1 pass or grid style"jail house door", then you could use the "boiler" as a back-up. but in the summer it will help cool the place. Just an idea.;)to consider.

SteveA · July 2009

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

Thank You for the welcome.

1) yes we will be using propane for the radiant floor heating. Probably with a high efficiency water heater or on demand water heater. The only load on the electrical should be a 80-100w 12v circulation pump and exhaust fan for the WH.

2) There is a commercial wind farm being installed about 2 miles from our land. We should have good wind, expecially since most of our RE load will be in teh winter (barns only purpose at this time is to store groomers and melt snow off them). I do share your concern with small wind though.

3) Solar on our mountain is not an option because we are in the famous Lake effect snow area of upstate NY and we're lucky to see the sun 50% of the daytime hours from November to March. Also it snows almost every day an inch or so and clearing the panels would be a major chore considering this is an unmanned site.

4) Initial stage will be genny and battery only until we have more money available for RE. Are there some model / brand combo's i should be looking at? I expect an inexpensive 4000w standby (like generac / home depot but i'm sure there are better brands).

5) If power fails it doesn't hurt anything. It might get cold but it's a barn so no biggie.

I am about a year away from construction and just planning now but like you said load calculation is key. I expect it to be low. We aren't trying to live here.

Thanks again.

niel · July 2009

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

i'm a bit confused here with some of your requirements and plans. if the equipment is inside then why the need to "to melt snow off the machines". i also question the need to heat the whole thing, especially to the degree you propose. you may need to have something to keep any starting batteries float charged though as they will lose power and die and freeze if no heat leaving messy acid. now simple multi-paned windows facing south could help with heating through solar, but windows are also an entry point for thieves so bars would be needed.
there are many places that sell security cameras and dvrs and you can do a search for that. i have dealt with a company called (deleted by niel due to trouble with company) and you can see some of the items there that you refer to. many dvrs are able to access a dsl line.

SteveA · July 2009

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

sorry for the confusion.
We are a snowmobile club and this barn is goingto be used to store the trail grooming tractors and drags (think ski hill type) They are about 35-40 feet long and about 15 feet tall. We have two and may be adding a third soon.

They go out about 3 - 4 times per week and major maintenance headache arise from them being stored outdoors right now.

we may room off a small part and design in a second zone but we are early in the planning stage.

Here's a photo.

Cariboocoot · July 2009

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

Greetings, Steve! From someone who traded in the snow and cold of Upstate New York for the snow and cold of the Cariboo, British Columbia. It was not an improvement.

My brother used to run the maintenance department at Peak-N-Peak years ago, so I know something of the equipment you're working with.

You mention hydro. There's freezing problems there. And wind power. Notoriously unreliable.
Don't discount solar altogether; the sun does shine (dimly, usually) there sometimes. It might be a good idea to get some solid weather data for your area first.

I'd recommend you try to orient the barn with a long wall facing South, so you can pick up some passive solar on any day the sun deems to shine. That and insulate the walls/ceiling as best possible. Difficult with a pole barn, but even in a NY Winter you could gain and keep enough passive solar energy to keep the place above freezing most of the time.

Except for those two weeks in February when them thermometer drops below zero Fahrenheit and stays there 'til none of the machinery wants to move at all ... Yes, I've been there. :roll: Used to be an agricultural engineer; designed farm equipment/fixtures of all sorts. Put a few barns back together too.

The passive solar w/insulation could be your best energy gain per $, and it never breaks down.

icarus · July 2009

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

Look at a heat source that is designed especially for radiant heat. I suggest you look at BAXI boilers, or Rinnai or Tagaki demand water heaters. As Mike has suggested, adding in a solar loop with an additional controller and circ. pump (or at least designing the system for such) makes great sense. Solar thermal is much more useful in marginal sun conditions regardless (mostly) of outside air temps. Since you only need to heat to say 40-50f gaining some from the sun is much easier than trying to get into DHW temps of +100f.

Don't be too quick to discount the possibilities of Pv solar. Let's do a simple test.

Lets say that your loading for security and heat are 150 watts, 24/7. That would be 3.6kwh/day.

So lets assume a 1000 watt Pv system. Using my rule of thumb of 50% of name plate rating for the average number of hours of GOOD sun, you might expect to get: 1000/2*2=1000 wh/day, assuming 2 hours of good sun. Doesn't sound all that encouraging UNTIL you look at it a bit further. Cold, midwinter Pv panel temps, coupled with a good MPPT controller might boost that an additional 10-15 %,,let's say 10% making 1100 wh. Getting closer. Add in reflection off of snow and you might add another 10% making ~1200 wh, getting still closer.

So now if you can reduce your loading a bit, from say 150 watts to say 125 watts your daily need would be closer to 3 kw/day. Now let's assume that your mechanics come in and work for 3 hours at some point during the day. Lets assume that they are running a genny for the shop lights for that time, AND they are running a 40 amp 12vdc charger for those same 3 hours. First,, your pump and security load would drop by those 3 hours saving ~400 ah, reducing you need further to ~ 2.5 kw. the 40 amp charger would (in rough numbers put in ~100ah in those three hours or about 1.2 kwh, so that the total need for Pv would be in the neighbourhood of 1.3 kwh. Pretty darn close. (These are all sort of WAG numbers, but at least you get the point)
Add in a couple of extra hours of sun a week, or a couple of extra hours of shop genny time, or a slight reduction in the loads and bingo, you are right there.

I personally live in a colder, maybe not quite as snowy spot. Panels will largely self clear if they are designed with the proper tilt. Even if you have to over tilt them to self shed snow, that system efficiency will be made up to some great extent by the reflection off the snow. My 40 degree panels will shed in about 1 hour once the sun hits them. I do have some panels mounted on the wall so that they don't accumulate snow at all.

Given a choice, if I couldn't get the water to work I would go with Pv over wind ever day of the week. The idea of a wind genny running unattended for days at a time in the winter sounds like a maintenance nightmare. (Having said that, I have seen wind gennies run by the Wyoming DOT powering signs in the mountains. I have no idea how often they have to repair them, but I would guess pretty often. One additional downside to wind is that if you get enough to be useful, you may have enough to wear out your hardware pretty quickly.

Good luck,

Keep in touch. It sounds like you are going about this in the right way,, thinking before acting (buying).

Tony

icarus · July 2009

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

There's a good idea,, zone heat.

One small room for office stuff heated to ~65f, the main storage shed that may need little or not heat, and the shop that wants to be warm enough to work.

Think you guys have it bad,, I used work a bit with a Heli-ski operation and the heli-engineers had to do most routine stuff out in the cold, covered at most with a tarp arraingement. In this case, if they could be certified to fly by morning it was BIG bucks!

Tony

peakbagger · July 2009

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

If you are pouring a slab, do your homework on installing adequate underslab insulation and perimeter insulation. A lot of folks assume that heat rises so its not important to do a good job insulating the slab, they end up getting stuck with high heating bills for the life of the building. Another thing to consider is using gas fired infared heaters. They work pretty well at keeping equipment warm rather than the surrounding space. They can heat up ther space quickly if needed but are just as good at keeping things above freezing.

niel · July 2009

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

tony brought up some good points that i was thinking of in the meantime.8)

Cariboocoot · July 2009

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

peakbagger wrote: »

If you are pouring a slab, do your homework on installing adequate underslab insulation and perimeter insulation. A lot of folks assume that heat rises so its not important to do a good job insulating the slab, they end up getting stuck with high heating bills for the life of the building. Another thing to consider is using gas fired infared heaters. They work pretty well at keeping equipment warm rather than the surrounding space. They can heat up ther space quickly if needed but are just as good at keeping things above freezing.

Yes! Insulating the slab is essential - it then becomes a controllable thermal mass. The more heat you can retain in the building, the less you have to come up with from whatever source.

SteveA · July 2009

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

thanks for all the suggestions. I'm all checked out on the latest energy effficient building techniques and slab effiecieny. Hopefully we have the money available to spay expanding foam insulation.

Let's simplify everything a little and assume only my initial outlay for power will be a genny and battery bank to power shop lights and the circulation pump/tankless water heater.

I want a charge controller and inverter that can automatically start the generator when the battery drop below a minimum threshold (what voltage??? about 10v assuming i run a 12 system?). The Xantrex XW with auto start looks perfect but also looks to be overkill and $$$. I can build a simple control system if necessary.

What brand of genny should i be looking at? It will either run on propane or Diesel/kero mix as both will be stored in bulk on site. Obviously generac is inexpensive and available at HD but i'm concerned that continuous duty will kill it.

What about inverter and controller? Outback and xantrex look to be the best. Again we're not building a house and anytime we're there for large loading we can run the generator.

Thanks again.
Steve
http://mulleyvilletrailsystem.com

mike95490 · July 2009

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

SteveA wrote: »

What brand of genny should i be looking at? It will either run on propane or Diesel/kero mix as both will be stored in bulk on site. Obviously generac is inexpensive and available at HD but i'm concerned that continuous duty will kill it.

I'd go with propane. Auto start diesel with glow plugs in cold weather, unattended,
just seems wrong.
Here's a link to some gnesets http://www.wricointernational.com

Cariboocoot · July 2009

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

Mike is right: diesels and cold weather do not get along. Since the gen will have to be outside or in some separate shed/room with exhaust venting, it will be cold. At the kind of temps you're looking at, it will want more than glow plugs to start. We're talking block heater and ether. Been there, done that, ran the salamander on it under canvass for two hour to thaw the fuel ... if you know what I mean.

Before you can decide on what you're going to buy, you need to more clearly define your loads. No sense buying 15 kW generator if you only need 5 kW. So you need to plan out your operations more clearly.

If you're going to have battery & inverter for running just lights, you can get away with small on both. Add in power requirements for alarm, phone, heating system - it all adds up. If you also want it to power the occasional tool, that's more. For basic power you can use a quite inexpensive Modified Sine Wave inverter, but there are certain devices (like motors and battery chargers) that don't get along with MSW.

As for auto-starting the generator, is that really necessary? How much power would be drawn from the batteries between visits, and will there be solar panels to compensate? Autostart is possible on larger systems, but it is more money. You might just need a small Honda 2000*, a couple of Trojan T-105, and a Xantrex TR 2412. Or you might need more. Until you know what your loads are, it's difficult to say how to meet them.

*The Honda inverter series generators are top quality and very economical as well as dependable. No, I don't sell them!

dwh · July 2009

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

SteveA wrote: »

I want a charge controller and inverter that can automatically start the generator when the battery drop below a minimum threshold (what voltage??? about 10v assuming i run a 12 system?). The Xantrex XW with auto start looks perfect but also looks to be overkill and $$$. I can build a simple control system if necessary.

Pretty sure you can do that with a good battery monitor such as the TriMetric or the Pentametric. NAWS sells them:

http://store.solar-electric.com/metersmonitors.html

I know the Pentametric can trigger a remote on/off relay, not sure about the Trimetric but I think it can as well.

SteveA · July 2011

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

I'm going to dig this thread back up since i've done a lot of learning the last two years (and no building

). We are getting closer to starting our project.

here's wehre we stand now.
1) approx 36x54 bilding with 14' ceilings. Going to attempt to put in a eave light window on the south wall (long side) for some passive gain but that is up in the air on whether we can get a window that keeps more heat in than the builders polycarb single pane sheathing.

2) Floor will be concrete with a single zone radient with 2" foam board under and on the edges. walls and ceiling will be super insulated with either spray foam or tyvek/fiberglass/poly vapor barrier.

3) there are going to be four insulated overhead doors for drive in / drive out capability. That's going to hurt insulation efficiency but it's a key to the design and functionality of the building.

4) Radiant system will run off propane and a tankless water heater (rinaih or takagi like). There will be a single grunfos or taco 12 VDC circulation pump (approx 80-100 W). Temperature requirements are 45 - 50 degree f constant from late november to early april. Calcualtions show the heating system will run for maybe 4-6 hours per day max (maybe as little as 3).

5) Shop lighting is a big ? right now. I would prefer something that provides enough light to pre-flight the equipment without running the genny but doesn't need to be enough to work. Work lights can be florescent with generator.

6) There won't be people working in this building on a regular basis. They will come in, start the equipment, and drive off for 8 or so hours at a time.

7) I've given up on all RE except solor for practicality reasons. We'll probably install a gen/battery system for year one and see how much power we use and hopefully get a few panels next summer?

So with all that stated here's what i have questions on:
1) Generator. Need something that can take an electric start / run-stop signal. Looks like honda or or such can work for less money. Probably the direction we take even if it means someone has to start it manually.

2) batteries. Prefer AGM but could get away with LA if the price is right.

3) Remote monitoring. Again not a requirement but i'd like to be able to monitor and possibly control the system from my computer at home. What monitors and controlers have internet capability. I could always just setup a cheap IP camera on the control board. I'm looking at a cheap flash based computer to communicate to the net.

4) Lighting. This is an area i know nothing about. LED/CFL/T8's? Power consumption. There's nothing to say we can't even just turn the lights on the machines on to pre-trip them as that's what we do now with them stored outside in the dark.

What am i not thinking about?

Cariboocoot · July 2011

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

Passive solar heating perhaps?
You don't have to have a window per se to get solar gain. In fact a non-window heater could be better.
Can't remember if we hurled this site a you before, but it sounds like time for more fun research!

Build-it Solar: http://www.builditsolar.com/

SteveA · July 2011

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Passive solar heating perhaps?
You don't have to have a window per se to get solar gain. In fact a non-window heater could be better.
Can't remember if we hurled this site a you before, but it sounds like time for more fun research!

Build-it Solar: http://www.builditsolar.com/

great point. If i don't care about the light it will let in (i don't, we mostly work at night) then one of those solar collector DIY's could be great. But then again with my radiant and the size of the slab the thermal mass may just be super efficient already and solar gain may be un-neded.

What about a genny with auto start capability. Don't think i need anything over a 2000kw/h system and will probably run 12V (maybe 24 but nothing more). I guess the honda's can't do that.

Reviewed the magnum stuff from another thread. I think that is ideal, since i can do 240V (potentail for a welder/compressor, though genny will provide that????). Can i have a 240V genset that feeds a 120v inverter?

Lighting is my biggest question now, do i just go with florescent and have a couple LED / CFL for non-shop work?

Cariboocoot · July 2011

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

SteveA wrote: »

great point. If i don't care about the light it will let in (i don't, we mostly work at night) then one of those solar collector DIY's could be great. But then again with my radiant and the size of the slab the thermal mass may just be super efficient already and solar gain may be un-neded.

Power saved is power saved; if the solar keeps the need for propane firing down, that's $ in the bank. I don't know how expensive it is there, but it would be welcome relief here.

What about a genny with auto start capability. Don't think i need anything over a 2000kw/h system and will probably run 12V (maybe 24 but nothing more). I guess the honda's can't do that.

Most small gen's are not electric start and won't do the auto-start thing. You're going to have to balance size and fuel consumption against frequency of need and availability of someone to pull the rope as necessary. Could be tricky. Maybe set up two power systems independent of each other; one for absolutely critical needs (alarm/monitoring, heat controls) to make sure a left-on light doesn't cause an unpleasant surprise.

Reviewed the magnum stuff from another thread. I think that is ideal, since i can do 240V (potentail for a welder/compressor, though genny will provide that????). Can i have a 240V genset that feeds a 120v inverter?

On the whole it's better to run occasional-need large loads from a gen than to build up a battery-based system capable of running them once in a while. The extra expense and wasted power potential is enormous. Most any 240 VAC gen will have 120 VAC (center neutral) ability as well.

Lighting is my biggest question now, do i just go with florescent and have a couple LED / CFL for non-shop work?

The LED's will be lower power and may perform better at low temps than CFL's. You may want to split it up with some "general" lighting and some "work" lighting. The general could even be DC based; save inverter consumption. If the work lighting needs to be very large it could be powered directly from the generator, since it probably wouldn't be used most of the time. Remember one of those little inverter gens will run all day on a tank of gas; they are very efficient. Even around here it would be about $8 for 12 kW hours of power - quite a bargain.

BB. · July 2011

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

SteveA wrote: »

What about a genny with auto start capability. Don't think i need anything over a 2000kw/h system and will probably run 12V (maybe 24 but nothing more). I guess the honda's can't do that.

I am not sure I understand what you are asking here...

2,000 WH per day?
2,000 kWH per month?
Or what....

2,000 WH per day is a fairly small system (call the small system around 100 kWH per month or 3.3 kWH per day usage)...

A 2,000 kWH per month system is pretty huge (even for a normal grid tied home).

Also, we need to know your peak loads (Watts peak; such as well pump, etc.). As well as your Watt*Hours or Amp*Hours @ XX volts per day usage.

Regarding a genset--A Honda eu3000i is about the smallest electric start/reasonable fuel usage genset out there... And there are people that make propane conversion kits. However--usually need a manual choke and so are not really a good option for autostart.

You might look at a genset from a wrecked RV (Onan, etc.). I don't have experience with them myself, but perhaps they can be converted to autostart fairly easily (auto choke, oil/overtemp limits, etc.).

-Bill

solar_dave · July 2011

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

If your using radiant floor heating and the propane costs are high, perhaps a couple of solar thermal panels and a couple of 80 gallon storage tanks to do the preheat thing on the radiant floor water heater supply could save a some money. There are lots of DYI solar water heater designs around. Then your instant on could be used as backup.

Mine uses a 80 high efficiency electric water heater tank for storage with no electric hooked up.

SolarLurker · July 2011

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

It sounds like the best thing for you would be a combined heat and power unit like the freewatt plus. Basically it makes both heat and electricity, so you might not need the generator. What you propose is not cheap nut can be done, if you get a generator make sure it's warranted for continuous use.

SteveA · August 2013

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

I'm going to restart this thread. We are going to finally build something this fall. The First stage is going to just be the barn shell. However it will give me an opportunity to install lighting, internet, and cameras. i'm thinking that for we can just go with a small RV type system like NAWS sells prepackaged and add a couple batteries so that i can monitor the site for solar potential and support the light loads that we'll have. I've learned a lot over the last few years and here's the project stages i'm looking at.

Stage 1
140-240 watt pre-designed solar system with suresine 300 watt inverter and a couple crown 6v batteries (???ah). Will use to power entry lighting, web-cams, router, and weather station. not sure what size battery bank would be appropriate for this system. I'd like to prevent needing a generator to auto-start at this point. Perhaps just get a honda eu1000 or 2000 to start out. Could we run a small 120v air compressor off one of those?

stage 2
After pouring radiant floor and adding low power propane boiler (standing pilot for no power operation) we'll add an 80 watt 12vdc circulator pump. This should run about 4 hours per day to maintain 45-50 degrees. That only adds another 240 or so watts to the daily load. At this point I should know whether we can support the system on PV only or if i need genny autostart. This is an unmanned site mostly so it needs to be pretty autonomous.

Questions:
1) does the above seem reasonable?
2) Can i autostart the honda EU3000is? or do i need something bigger. I'd prefer to have a small generator but if we are going to want to RARELY run a welder or compressor perhaps the bigger generator is necessary.
3) Looking at a trimetric battery monitor. This will give me autostart capability and logging but I'd really like to be able to monitor this system over the internet but i'm not seeing anything that will work without a computer in the lower price ranges. I've seen the posts on the flash computers and such so that might be the way to go? Are there better options to give me those two functions (logging and auto-start?)
4)

Cariboocoot · August 2013

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

SteveA wrote: »

Stage 1
140-240 watt pre-designed solar system with suresine 300 watt inverter and a couple crown 6v batteries (???ah). Will use to power entry lighting, web-cams, router, and weather station. not sure what size battery bank would be appropriate for this system. I'd like to prevent needing a generator to auto-start at this point. Perhaps just get a honda eu1000 or 2000 to start out. Could we run a small 120v air compressor off one of those?

See, you've picked panel size first and then started wondering about battery capacity. You really need to do it the other way to avoid disappointment. A couple of GC2's are about the cheapest you'll get, and they are going to want about 385 Watts on a PWM controller for best charging. That does not include allowance for poor sun.

A small Honda will run a small air compressor, providing you define "small" air compressor. I've got one that either gen (I have both 1000 & 2000) will run, and I've another that neither can. Well if I fiddle with it in warm weather and the cord isn't too long the 2000 will start it, but usually it just faults and shuts down.

stage 2
After pouring radiant floor and adding low power propane boiler (standing pilot for no power operation) we'll add an 80 watt 12vdc circulator pump. This should run about 4 hours per day to maintain 45-50 degrees. That only adds another 240 or so watts to the daily load. At this point I should know whether we can support the system on PV only or if i need genny autostart. This is an unmanned site mostly so it needs to be pretty autonomous.

Watt hours. Consumption is in Watt hours. You are basing 240 Watt hours per day on an 80 Watt pump running for 3 hours? Because at 4 hours it's 320 Watt hours, which is significantly more. Your 220 Amp hours of 12 Volt battery would supply 1200 Watt hours max, and need a lot of panel to keep up with that 50% DOD.

Questions:
1) does the above seem reasonable?

It's pretty close to viable. You have to ask yourself how bad will it be if the system fails?

2) Can i autostart the honda EU3000is? or do i need something bigger. I'd prefer to have a small generator but if we are going to want to RARELY run a welder or compressor perhaps the bigger generator is necessary.

Autostart will require a gen with electric start, automatic choke, and preferably an interface for the function. You can work around that last one but not the first two. Depending on what your welder is you may well want a larger unit.

3) Looking at a trimetric battery monitor. This will give me autostart capability and logging but I'd really like to be able to monitor this system over the internet but i'm not seeing anything that will work without a computer in the lower price ranges. I've seen the posts on the flash computers and such so that might be the way to go? Are there better options to give me those two functions (logging and auto-start?)

Can't do complex for cheap.

mike95490 · August 2013

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

SteveA wrote: »

...
stage 2
After pouring radiant floor and adding low power propane boiler (standing pilot for no power operation) we'll add an 80 watt 12vdc circulator pump. This should run about 4 hours per day to maintain 45-50 degrees. That only adds another 240 or so watts to the daily load. At this point I should know whether we can support the system on PV only or if i need genny autostart. This is an unmanned site mostly so it needs to be pretty autonomous.......

Why run it anymore than to maintain minimum of 35F ? Why even add water for the winter ?

I'd not test out consumer grade auto-start generators
in an unmonitored situation. If the choke fails, and the engine cranks till the battery flattens.........

SteveA · August 2013

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

mike95490 wrote: »

Why run it anymore than to maintain minimum of 35F ? Why even add water for the winter ?

I'd not test out consumer grade auto-start generators
in an unmonitored situation. If the choke fails, and the engine cranks till the battery flattens.........

unmonitored is an exaggeration. There will be people in and out of the site several times per week during the winter season (hardly ever during the spring - fall) however they aren't the people i'd want to rely on to keep the system peaked. This is why i'd like to be able to see what is going on there via the internet. I thought some of the AGS systems have a feature to deal with repeated start failures.

The worst case is we don't have power and the heat doesn't work. there's no water in the building so it won't hurt anything. We'd like to keep it somewhat warmer than freezing in order to make maintenance easier by melting off snow and ice. That's where the 45 -50 degrees comes from.

SteveA · August 2013

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

Cariboocoot wrote: »

See, you've picked panel size first and then started wondering about battery capacity. You really need to do it the other way to avoid disappointment. A couple of GC2's are about the cheapest you'll get, and they are going to want about 385 Watts on a PWM controller for best charging. That does not include allowance for poor sun.

True, I haven't picked that panel size solid.Just thinking about what our loads are and you've helped me with a number to shoot for. If we run out of battery the worst that happens in the barn doesn't get heat and our batteries aren't well cared for.

A small Honda will run a small air compressor, providing you define "small" air compressor. I've got one that either gen (I have both 1000 & 2000) will run, and I've another that neither can. Well if I fiddle with it in warm weather and the cord isn't too long the 2000 will start it, but usually it just faults and shuts down.

I've seen a post on here about the eu4000 or something like that. Looks like it's not available anymore but that would likely be perfect. Seems like a lot of generator for our small system.

Watt hours. Consumption is in Watt hours. You are basing 240 Watt hours per day on an 80 Watt pump running for 3 hours? Because at 4 hours it's 320 Watt hours, which is significantly more. Your 220 Amp hours of 12 Volt battery would supply 1200 Watt hours max, and need a lot of panel to keep up with that 50% DOD.

there i go failing 4th grade math again. 8x3=24, 8x4=32 LOL. But here is the big question. I don't know how much the pump is going to have to run to keep our space at 45 degrees until i install and spec out the insulation, slab, and boiler. If i start with a system that will allow me to collect data, and maintain my electronic loads that should only be about 240 watt hours per day (if i figure the router, flash computer, and two web cams are using about 10 watts 24/7 which i'd need to get a kill a watt on them first) i can do it for cheap and not be overly concerned about scrapping the batteries and cheap PWM controller when i get the heating system added (in a year a least, maybe two).

Or would i be better off just buying a midnight classic 150 lite to start knowing that i'm never going to have grid at this site so i might as well get a decent controller and inverter/charger right away even if i'm not going to have a demand for that capacity right away. Buy enough panel and battery to handle the electronics and a couple hours (max) of low watt LED entry / security lighting (on motion) per week (during the winter only).

With that, what is the battery size to panel calculation if i start with a 300 watt hour per day demand knowing that i have to get a generator and would like to add in AGS. Or perhaps i got with a absorb only panel system and just bulk off AGS for the first year so i can get an idea of our sun conditions give the Lake effect snow area we are in.

It's pretty close to viable. You have to ask yourself how bad will it be if the system fails?

The only bad thing that could happen is the batteries go flat. A cold barn won't hurt anything and if the lights don't come on we can turn the groomer lights on.

Autostart will require a gen with electric start, automatic choke, and preferably an interface for the function. You can work around that last one but not the first two. Depending on what your welder is you may well want a larger unit.

I've seen a post from Chrisolson about the honda EM4000 that looks like it would work well for us but it seems like a real big generator for maintaining our system. Fuel trade off for AGS and the ability to have a welder and compressor in the barn i guess i have to live with. Looks to be about 0.5 gal/hour which is real high compared to the EU2000.

3) Looking at a trimetric battery monitor. This will give me autostart capability and logging but I'd really like to be able to monitor this system over the internet but i'm not seeing anything that will work without a computer in the lower price ranges. I've seen the posts on the flash computers and such so that might be the way to go? Are there better options to give me those two functions (logging and auto-start?)

Can't do complex for cheap.

Ok forget cheap. What's the best way to be able to see what's going on at the barn from my house/phone? Looks like midnight has an option with the classic and there is the mag-web (ME-MW-E) but i'd need a full on magnum system for that to work (which may be what i need in the end). There is a club member that lives pretty close by that if i see a problem i could call up and he could be there easily.

Cariboocoot · August 2013

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

Observations without commitment.

Definitely start with the cheap batteries. The risk of them going dead is real, and you sure don't want that happening to a large capacity expensive bank of AGM's.

The heating demands being variable makes predicting power use difficult to say the least. Do you go with "worst case" or "average" use? The former will require much more capacity than the latter of course.

You're up against "do I spend the money now or later?" for much of this. Starting with a 300 Watt Morningstar is fine; it will run most things like lights and security monitoring. So do you need to go up to a big inverter later? Or will it still be more economical to fire up a EU3000i on those occasions when big power is needed? (You are going to have to compare features on a lot of gens to see which best suits your needs.)

You could go whole-hog with a completely integrated Outback system including DC Flexnet monitor, FX inverter(s), and FM charge controllers. That would cost a pretty penny. Maybe you need to re-evaluate how much system monitoring you need. A custom designed monitor using an Arduino computer may be best (not my field so don't ask me about them).

We can't make the decisions for you. All we can do is throw lots of options at you until you're hopelessly confused. Have we succeeded yet?

vtmaps · August 2013

Re: Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

SteveA wrote: »

Perhaps just get a honda eu1000 or 2000 to start out. Could we run a small 120v air compressor off one of those?

Cariboocoot wrote: »

A small Honda will run a small air compressor, providing you define "small" air compressor. I've got one that either gen (I have both 1000 & 2000) will run, and I've another that neither can. Well if I fiddle with it in warm weather and the cord isn't too long the 2000 will start it, but usually it just faults and shuts down.

SteveA wrote: »

I've seen a post on here about the eu4000 or something like that. Looks like it's not available anymore but that would likely be perfect. Seems like a lot of generator for our small system.

It is a lot of generator for a small system, but then an air compressor is a lot of load for a small system. If your heavy loads are of short enough duration a small system with generator support might work well for you. Both Magnum and Schneider have very new offerings that feature gen support.

--vtMaps

Off Grid Storage Barn in Cold Climate

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