Why installation is so expensive

SystemSystem Posts: 2,511 admin
I have been taking bids for a 4.2 kWh system for my home and I can not understand why installation charges is proportionally increasing as I get higher rated panels. Installers start to jack up there pricing even with the same type of inverter and number of panels.

How much should an installer charge ($/kWh DC)? I believe this is a unprofessional and border line scam in how contractors/installers come up with their installation pricing scheme. It becomes unrealistic taking advantage of the rebate since installers are the ones benefiting from this for charging 30-40% of the installed cost.

Im now considering doing a partial self install where in I will just hire directly a licensed technician and get involved with the installation. Our city has a pretty clear process and list of requirements to get my PV system, rebates, and incentives. I have seen numerous documented self installed systems which Im confident Im capable of.

Any inputs would be appreciated

Comments

  • TnAndyTnAndy Solar Expert Posts: 249 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Why installation is so expensive

    Since almost every installation will be different, I can't see how anyone could come up with a "standard" cost, except for a wide, ballpark range.

    If you think the price of install is too high, by all means, take it on.....but don't be surprised to find it was a lot cheaper than you thought by the time you're done....self education may provide satisfaction, but it isn't free.... :D

    For example, you may well find "hiring a technician" that is versed in PV may be harder than you think. ( or you may luck right up on a good one )....because odds are, they are already working full time doing this, and may not want to fool with a small amount of work to keep you straight or legal. Be quite leary of the guy that says "Oh yeah, I can come over tommorrow and help you with that".....if he knows what he's doing, why is he free tommorrow ?
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,698 admin
    Re: Why installation is so expensive

    A few years ago, when panels where $5.00 per watt or more, full turnkey installations hung around $8-$10 per watt for "average" installs. Panels are now closer to $3.00 per Watt, so one would think that prices should fall a couple dollars per Watt.

    However some prices have gone up a bit (inverters some, copper wire bounces all over the place, in California labor costs have been a problem with benefits and insurance).

    You can certainly can estimate the retail value (list and retail--don't forget shipping and taxes) by using our host's pricing and price out the major components--and back out your labor costs (and permitting, etc.) and see how it compares.

    There are some pretty good rebates/tax credits out there (higher Federal tax credit--State and local are all over the map depending on your location).

    175 Watt Panels (what my installation uses) are easily installed by two people (one on the ground, one on the roof)... It is possible as you get the larger 220+ watt panels, that there is a bit more labor involved (more people on roof/ground to handle larger/heavier panels, but much of the time is still spent on wiring, mounting rails, etc.)--but those panels, many times, are actually the cheaper $$$/watt prices (compare online pricing and verify).

    If you want to post the pricing here for discussion (your location, where the system will be installed, 2nd story clay tile roof, ground, xyz brand panels + abc inverter, etc.)--please feel free.

    Right now, very large panels (especially mono-crystalline) may be commanding a bit of a premium--but as long as they are a good brand and warranty, buying on a $$$/Watt basis is usually the recommendation (don't pay a premium for something that does not mean anything special to you such as more money for mono-crystalline over poly-crystalline).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Solar GuppySolar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,962 ✭✭✭
    Re: Why installation is so expensive

    There is allot to doing an installation. You have to know all the correct materials, what the proper way to install, how to deal with your building department, insurance for helpers and paying for all the materials upfront.

    I just did a refit on two of my arrays, went from 165 watt panels to 200 watt ones. I had to hire a helper, even moving the panels on the roof requires two people vs the 165's I could manage by myself.

    PV is no different than any other trade, 2-3X material costs is what it takes to cover anything over the material costs. For example, I put in new heat pump system myself this spring ... my cost 3200 .... my neighbor has a similar system done a month later, is cost 8500 ... Yet very few people do self installs for HVAC

    If you hire a helper, you had better get correct roof-rated workman compensation insurance, just one of the many things that go into that overhead. Also get a copy of the NEC and memorize section 690, your building department is going to expect you know all there is to know on how to correctly install a PV system
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,698 admin
    Re: Why installation is so expensive

    And don't rely on the building department to educate you or check your work for 100% compliance (the Panel Fire Question thread was inspected by the building inspector).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • WindsunWindsun Solar Expert Posts: 1,164 ✭✭
    Re: Why installation is so expensive

    One reason in many areas is that the cost of the permit and paperwork costs have gone up. In 2001 it cost us about $300 for the entire process, now it is over $2000 for the same size system. More paperwork, more agencies involved, clueless people demanding detailed line drawings for such things as the placement of every bolt, etc etc.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,698 admin
    Re: Why installation is so expensive

    In our area--they have shamed some of the cities to dramatically reduce their permit fees for solar electric (10% or more "city tax" it was becoming).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Why installation is so expensive

    Labour, materials, overhead, insurance, liability and indeed profit! When you see RE guys living in McMansions,,, driving Escalades then you know you are paying too much.

    I used to get the same rant from folks who said,, why should I pay you $X grand for this job when I can get my neighbour down the road for $1/2X who works part time. I would say,, go for it,, if you don't want insurance, warrantee etc. The guy working out of his garage paying no workers comp, no liability insurance, can work half price! Not really a bargain however.

    Tony
  • retrodogretrodog Solar Expert Posts: 53 ✭✭
    Re: Why installation is so expensive
    icarus wrote: »
    Labour, materials, overhead, insurance, liability and indeed profit! When you see RE guys living in McMansions,,, driving Escalades then you know you are paying too much.

    I used to get the same rant from folks who said,, why should I pay you $X grand for this job when I can get my neighbour down the road for $1/2X who works part time. I would say,, go for it,, if you don't want insurance, warrantee etc. The guy working out of his garage paying no workers comp, no liability insurance, can work half price! Not really a bargain however.

    Tony

    I sure am glad that I just live in an unincorporated part of Harris County. No city constraints. Just the county ones.

    While I agree with everything you stated above, If I ever get around to installing a PV system I'm going to do all the design and work. Mostly cause I'm an EE and a DIY kinda guy. I know I'll learn a lot but that knowledge is infinitely useful for future debugging and maintenance. And the occasional redesign of course. We engineers always like to change things. ;)

    And could you please post a link to a full size picture of your avatar. I want to see that house in more detail. It's just so cool looking that I'd like to see it better. :)
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Why installation is so expensive

    Retro,, here are a few more picts,,

    http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?t=4368&page=4&highlight=reasons+live+grid

    Tony
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,698 admin
    Re: Why installation is so expensive

    Here is a thread of "why we live off-grid" with some pictures around Tony's place... Perhaps Tony and others can add their pictures to that thread.

    -Bill

    PS: Tony won the typing contest this time--but there will be a next time. :grr ;)
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Why installation is so expensive

    I appreciate the communities helpful responses. Here are some data that might help in getting a better picture of my system requirement:

    Ave. monthly electric: 1036 kWh ( 34 kWh/day)
    Location: Burbank California 91504 (L.A. county)
    Latitude: 34.2 degrees N
    Full sun hours: 5.62
    Altitude: 568 ft.

    Front Roof facing: SW or 220 degrees
    Front Roof tilt: 20 degrees
    Front Roof Area: 491.15 sq.ft. (20.9' X 23.5')
    Shading: None

    I am limited by the square footage of the SW roof which can approximately fit 21 panels. I have considered different manufacturers from the more efficient Sanyo 215 HIT or Sunpower 215W panels to Evergreen's 210W. Although both Sanyo and SunPower have very promising efficiency rating and above average performance on higher temp, it still doesnt justify the pricing of almost double than most PVs. I initially was getting bids for the Sanyo 215HIT but Im now inclined going with Evergreen's 210W PV due the the huge price difference.

    Then I have done pricing on all the major components ( 21 X 205W Evergreen, SMA 6000US inverter, Unirak flush mount, AC and DC disconnects, cabling, counduit, etc.). I was also able to acquire some reference on other partial-DIY homeowner to get a better pricing estimate of the other stuff i could have missed and added 25% more. The counduit will be running about 25 meters from the PV combiner box down to the electric panel.

    So with permits, shipping , and taxes, I was able to come up with $20K for a 4.3kWh system DC. Although I had a quote from a contractor for $6.65/kWh installed, I had to consider other factors like companies history and quality of an actual/similar job. I have talked to there customers and found out there satisfaction level. I chose the contractor that was quoting me $6.90/kWh.

    At this rate the installed price was $29.7K, which is almost $10K for a 3 day installation. So I have talked to a couple licensed electrician to install the inverter, 2 disconects box, and run the conduit to the roof. They both pretty much price it at $1000 for less than a days work. I have talked to a professional roofer that was recommended to by my neighbor that quoted me $ 1800 to replace my roofing and install the mounting rail with 10year warranty. Also, the same electrician offered to complete the job with the PV panels for $500 more with a couple of hired help.

    I would save about $6,400 + I get a new roofing. I'm a electronics engineer back in my country but never pursued it here in the US, in my research on the planning and requirement by the city, although Im no EE I am confident I can do it myself.

    If I went with the Sanyo's I would spend a lot more for the panels and an additional $5k for installation. This is still not making any sense to me. Why will a installation cost be more expensive for panels that are smaller and lighter compared to Evergreen.

    I believe I have bored you already with my info but would like to hear your opinions. Whats the Pros and Cons in doing a partial self-install?
  • Solar GuppySolar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,962 ✭✭✭
    Re: Why installation is so expensive

    Does the quotes include all the required permitting and fees? I could see this costing a few thousand. When you Electrician gets some "helpers" is he or you proving the workman compensation insurance? , another 1-2K there as well. If someone gets hurt in anyway on your property and the comp insurance is not be provided, you could lose you home, no joke due to the unlimited nature of claims that can be brought against you

    Also, what is the racking costs? there is much more than the tie ins to the roof, and you have to have PE approved plans for the permits, not something an electrician would have experience into.

    Turnkey, means you write a check, doing it yourself means you have to know everything, pay for everything , know all the right trade people that will perform the work and you provide your own warranty on the project ... get a pallet of panels and one is broken ... you have to deal with that

    I have done it myself 4 times, its a boat load of work ... for your first system you won't save a nickle and will be constantly running into things you have to learn to redo to meet county/city/state requirements for a proper installation.

    If you want to learn and go in with open eyes, that's one reason to do it, if you think your going to save money ... then all you are saying is you don't know what the process from beginning to end entails
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Why installation is so expensive

    I can sell you a truck load of lumber for $20k,, but you can't call it a house. I contend that an install of that size for ~$6k is not too far out of line,, if at all. Assuming the folks know what they are doing,, give you a warranty etc. When things go south,, they are the ones who have to climb up and fix it.

    The reality is the contractor's overhead is a very real number. For example,, when I retired from my home building business in 1990,, my liability insurance was ~$2000/year. If I had to buy it back it would be closer to $20k. My workers comp for carpenters was nearly as much as the wage. So if a guy is paying his journeymen ~$30/hr, his hard cost are at least double that,, add in other overhead and the number nears 3 times!

    If you want to do it yourself,, I applaud you,, but please don't disparage people who have to make a living in the field. If you don't like the price,, shop elsewhere,, but beware the net value of the cheapest price! As I have said before,, when the solar guys are driving around in Escalades and taking calls on the golf course,, then I would get worried about being gouged.

    Tony
  • dwhdwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
    Re: Why installation is so expensive

    Also the contractor has to pay his liability insurance (in most places electrical contractors are required to carry large liability policies - much like doctors). If HIS installation burns down your house, it's covered...if YOUR installation burns down your house - are you covered?

    Bonding.
    Not very expensive, but still it's a price he has to pay.

    Licensing fees.

    Truck and fuel and insurance.
    How are you getting all the material to the site? You can have it delivered, but you'll pay shipping costs. The contractor will pick up most of the wire and pipe and whatnot from the electrical supply house and bring it with him. Or, if he's a good customer, the supply house will send out a truck to deliver it and will charge the contractor little if any delivery charge. You could go get the stuff yourself - if so then add up the cost of fuel and insurance and wear and tear on your vehicle ($0.XX per Mile) and add M (mileage) to your "I can do it for 20k" estimate.

    Tools.
    Do you have all the tools you'll need, or will you end up making several trips to the store to buy tools which you didn't even know you needed? Add the price of the tools and don't forget the mileage for making those trips to the store.


    When you hire a pro, you get all the little extras that you didn't even know you were getting - because the pro doesn't charge them as a line item on your estimate.



    Now, on the other hand, you can sub it all out - as the homeowner, you can act as your own general contractor.

    You can hire the roofer to put on the new roof and the mounting rails.

    You can hire the electrician to mount everything and hook it all up.

    Don't forget you'll have to hire the architect and/or EE as well since you WILL need plans or your WON'T get permits - and you NEED permits if you want things like tax rebates and homeowner's insurance.

    Or are you planning to do all the plans yourself? If you do your own plans, can you do the roof loading calculations? Can you get your plans through Building and Safety plan check? Do you know the NEC well enough to do your plans without the assistance of an electrician? Did your "$1000 for 1 day's work" electrician include the plans in that price?


    Either way you go you still have not figured in the value of YOUR TIME. Do you work for a living? Then what is the cost of any time you take off work? What is the value of your personal time?
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Why installation is so expensive

    I think Icarus hit on the head!!

    I run a glass business and I can tell ya the differences in what other glass companies charge compare to what I charge are quite a bit. While I'm not the cheapest in town I definitely ain't the highest.

    Example, A buddy of mine pointed at house across the street and asked me how much I would charge to replace the windows , I replied 5-6k. He told me he replaced the windows for 15k and he got the job because the people had another company wanting to charge 25k. The point is this, there are companies out there that will charge that much difference. Your best bet is to get references of the contractors work. Just ask them for the addresses of the last couple of jobs they have completed and go talk to the owners.

    My best advertising is word of mouth, and should be your contractors too!!!!
  • foosmanfoosman Solar Expert Posts: 38
    Re: Why installation is so expensive

    I'm a do-it-your-self person, but after watching the work involved in putting in my system...I doubt I would ever personally do it. It was a lot more involved and more work than I thought. Also, there were a lot more components and tools that I imagined. For example, the installer said that the crimp tool they use to crimp on weather tight connectors to the wire that connects to the string of panels costs $500. Joe "I can do it" would simply cut the wires and splice them together. Fuse/combiner boxes, pipe benders for the conduits, special 600V rated fuse holders, blocking diodes, paint for the conduit, etc.
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Why installation is so expensive

    After being some type of contractor since I was 16 years old, I often reflect on what a very wise man once told me. As a contractor, it is not whether the customer can afford to pay you or not, it is whether or not you can afford to work for the customer. For many years I chased customers that tried to squeeze every last dime out of me. I found that dealing with that type of customer always resulted in a lower quality job and almost always took longer than anticipated. When I bid a job, I bid it for what it is worth to me. If I can't get the job for that price then I can't afford to work for that customer. I have a very large network of people that I work for and I can tell you that even with small projects, the homeowner that chooses to do it themselves almost always gets themselves in some kind of boondoggle whether it be with design/permitting or with installation or maintenance. The solar contractor will 1)Design the system to meet the requirements of the job and make material specifications based on experience, 2)Permit the job if necessary and use his experience to navigate the bureacracy, 3)Supply all of the materials necessary (there aren't solar supply houses on every corner so if you forget something be prepared to wait at least a week for it) 4)Install the system to meet code (Professionals not only know the codes, but normally have a working relationship with the inspectors. Inspectors are almost always harder to deal with when you don't have a relationship with them) 5)Arrange for the utility interconnect agreement and utility inspection 6)Check-up on the system 30 days after installation (some) and 7)Provide warranty service (installing a solar system may be exciting and fun today but what about next winter when the temperature is 30oF and the wind is blowing 30 mph. Do you really want to be on the roof troubleshooting a faulty array? My suggestion is to hire the contractor and let him do his job while you do yours.
  • jeffkrusejeffkruse Solar Expert Posts: 205 ✭✭✭
    Re: Why installation is so expensive

    I disagree with Solar Mans general statement. I have heard too many stories about bad contractors but I digress.

    First, I didn’t have any experience with Solar power when I decided to go off grid with solar. I read a book, searched the internet, and read some handouts from a class on installation. Then I did the design and installation.

    Second, there are no permits required to install solar in Puerto Rico. (Everything else here requires a permit or government inspection, even replacing the bumper on your car!!!! But not a solar installation)

    Third, there are no inspections required if your off grid here in Puerto Rico.

    The Tax Credit paperwork bureaucracy was a PITA but that paperwork had to be done by the owner anyways.

    To qualify for the tax credits my system did need to be signed off by Licensed PE who had a short class on solar energy. But if I didn’t want the tax credits I didn’t need him.

    I did a great job saved a TON of money BUT I did have to work very hard. I didn’t have anything else to do so my time was free and this was a fun project. My system has been running over a month now with no problems.

    I know the system inside and out so if there are any problems I won’t be afraid to fix it and I don’t have to call someone to do it.
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Why installation is so expensive

    Sorry Jeff,, but you are mixing apples and oranges.

    Solar Man's point is spot on. The reality is that in MOST cases home handymen (women) are not very capable. Of course there are exceptions. The reality of contracting is that if a contractor has to buy work he is not going to be around very long. Are there shoddy contractors out there in every field? You bet. Can some of us do a great DIY job cheaper than a local contractor? Sure, some of us can. But there is a huge difference between a comparatively small off grid system and a large grid tie system.

    The reality is that quality will prevail over the long term,, and fly by night will drop by the wayside. For an interesting exercise go to the library and look in a 20 year old phone book yellow pages add for "general contractors" in your town. Make a list,,then look ten years out,, make another list,, and finally look in the current book. I would guess that there are few that make it 10 years much less 20. Same for electricians, plumbers etc. Guys may do well for a couple of years but to sustain poor work for very long is pretty hard.

    Tony
  • dwhdwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
    Re: Why installation is so expensive
    jeffkruse wrote: »
    I didn’t have anything else to do so my time was free

    http://moneycentral.msn.com/personal-finance/calculators/Know_The_Value_Of_Your_Time_Calculator/home.aspx

    Also,

    http://www.icrsurvey.com/Study.aspx?f=Bayer_Lawn_Care_082707.htm

    "On average, the group of adults surveyed value an hour of their free time at $94."


    On the other hand:

    http://www.thepersonalfinancier.com/2008/08/outsourcing-our-chores-do-we-overvalue.html

    "The average cost of each spare hour is approximately $20 an hour."


    Either way; spare time isn't really "free".
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Why installation is so expensive

    A corollary argument that people who chose to live more simply.

    Every dollar we spend on something has to be earned. We can indeed "earn" our free time by not spending in the first place. So while my time may not be "free" in a monetary sense ever hour I don't have to work to pay for something that either I can do without, or I can do myself is an hour I get for myself. If a task is something I would do because I enjoy it (like tinkering) and the install cost would(s) would override the benefits then I might choose to do it.

    On the other hand, have been known to farm our lots of stuff to others,, even though I know that I could do them if I chose to. For example I needed back brakes on a vehicle a while ago. I could do it myself,, but I chose to trade money for time (and possible aggravation!)

    On yet a third hand, if you are working a job that pays you $X per hour it probably doesn't make sense to take time away from that job to save $.8X I used to get this all the time. Custom home clients would say,, "You know,, we can paint the house and that would save us some money right?" I would respond,, "Let's see,, do you love to paint? Do you have professional equipment? My painter can be in and out of the house in a few days after the plaster. Are you prepared to slow or stop progress for some indeterminate time to paint it slower,, risking additional construction and loan costs? You are a Lawyer/Doctor/Teacher/Pilot/Business owner etc. and you earn say $50/hour. How much time are you going to have to take off to paint this and is it really worth it?"

    I never had a client paint their own house!

    Tinkerers and DIY'ers are different and they don't fit in the mold. Back to the original posters point. Can a DIY'er or a tinkerer do a solar install? Absolutely! Will he save any money? Maybe. Does it make sense for everyone to do it? No way!

    Tony
  • dwhdwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
    Re: Why installation is so expensive

    My dad painted his own house...constantly.

    Every weekend he would bust out the ladder, tools and paint and would spend a couple of hours prepping and painting some part of his house. Might be the north wall this month, the under-eave on the west next month and the front trim the month after.

    It was a regular habit and his house always looked clean and sharp on the outside.

    On the inside he would usually do something like two rooms a year. This year maybe the living room and dining room, next year maybe the bedrooms.
  • nigtomdawnigtomdaw Solar Expert Posts: 705 ✭✭
    Re: Why installation is so expensive

    After 2 years of so so progress on building my house myself i found a builder i liked, enjoyed working with and ended up with a house i could only have dreamed of having, well insulated dry and thermally efficient it isnt finished thats left to me, but what Ive got after Id spent my money is a little very little Mac Mansion that Im proud of. I am an serious DIY er but you have to know your limitations, on the upside as my cash ran low we did a deal and I installed his solar system,:D

    We are good friends now, but it took 2 years to find the right guy, I concur with Icarus, DIY is a right for everyone, but it does not mean u will save money, get what u want and be proud of it!

    I also draw the line on DIY dentistry, surgical operations and killing my own food ;)

    We all have limits I am a bit of a wosse (wimp) when it comes to killing my supper :blush:
  • dwhdwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
    Re: Why installation is so expensive
    nigtomdaw wrote: »
    I also draw the line on DIY dentistry, surgical operations and killing my own food ;)

    We all have limits I am a bit of a wosse (wimp) when it comes to killing my supper :blush:

    I don't have a problem *killing* my own food - that's the easy part. The part I don't much care for is the butchering.
  • nigtomdawnigtomdaw Solar Expert Posts: 705 ✭✭
    Re: Why installation is so expensive

    taking a life is hard and upsetting, butchering a dead carcass is not ?
  • dwhdwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
    Re: Why installation is so expensive
    nigtomdaw wrote: »
    taking a life is hard and upsetting, butchering a dead carcass is not ?

    Vice versa. I don't have a problem killing - it's the messy smelly part that I'd rather avoid.
  • nigtomdawnigtomdaw Solar Expert Posts: 705 ✭✭
    Re: Why installation is so expensive

    never got that close im not ashamed to say nearest i get is ripping the meat off
    a cooked chicken to give to my dog i have friends around who give me eggs a plenty i often turn them down, in return i offer them free phone calls to the uk as im at the top of a valley have radio broadband and skype free phone calls to landlines across Europe.....not free realy $60 a year but as good as. Love meat just cant raise it and kill it sorry. :blush:
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Why installation is so expensive
    nigtomdaw wrote: »
    Love meat just cant raise it and kill it sorry.

    Don't be sorry, you just aren't hungry enough yet ! Remember the Donner Party
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donner_Party
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • PeterrPeterr Registered Users Posts: 18
    Re: Why installation is so expensive

    ha.. no problem raising dem vegetables from tiny little seeds. Watch em grow and graduate into something. Sometimes just to feed bugs, or larger critters, which can get annoying. My wife even talks to them. I don't do that but am tankful, when picking & rinsing them, cutting them open, cooking them if needed and eating them. No blood, no smell, except the compost heap some times. Phew..

    Does that make me a DIY'er? Na.. I just help them seeds sprout.
    So the suns here, were just learning new and different ways to harvest it.

    Each to his own... ;) in how we think about doing it. But the chance to think about how we do it, comes from its gift of being dar.
  • dwhdwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
    Re: Why installation is so expensive

    Just watch out for those punkins - those vines'll take over the world if you're not careful. :)
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