very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!

lamplightlamplight Solar Expert Posts: 368 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
«1

Comments

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 28,645 admin
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!

    Ducted wind turbines have been tried before on a very large scale--and found to be wanting.

    I would not hold my breath for this one either.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!

    The $64k question,,,,

    "WindTronics has only built prototype systems, which it first showed at a hardware show last month. But if its turbines can operate in low wind with little vibration and sound, the company could make small wind turbines economically attractive to a much larger audience."

    I don't believe that I will be lining up at my local Ace Hardware store any time soon!

    Tony
  • lamplightlamplight Solar Expert Posts: 368 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!

    this article says nothing about being ducted. id never heard of that. i dont really follow wind genny issues though as im not in a good wind harvesting area.

    what I read in this article is that this turbines difference is that the power generation happens with magnets at the outside of the blades (which look like cloth??). this seems like a neat idea and is _supposed_ to generate more power at low windspeeds. whether its from this part of the technology or some other factor im not sure. also that its far lighter than other wind turbines seems cool. it sounds like from the article that honeywell will distribute and manufacture, thats a big company so that should be a good sign. this industry has a lot to be skeptic about so i understand the reservations.
    BB. wrote: »
    Ducted wind turbines have been tried before on a very large scale--and found to be wanting.

    I would not hold my breath for this one either.

    -Bill
  • Solar GuppySolar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,959 ✭✭✭
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!
    lamplight wrote: »
    it sounds like from the article that honeywell will distribute and manufacture, thats a big company so that should be a good sign.


    Thats not what is in the linked article .. Its made by Earthtronics, they just use the honeywell name for marketing
    The Honeywell Trademark is used under license from Honeywell
    International Inc. Honeywell International Inc. makes no
    representation or warranties with respect to this product.

    regardless of the technology, there is very little energy in sub 10mph winds...

    http://www.earthtronics.com/pdf/Energy-Generation-Information-4.pdf

    at 9.99mph, this beauty puts out an earth shattering 105 watts ... to get there 2000kwh number you need 230 watts 24/7 for 365 days ...
  • hunter44102hunter44102 Registered Users Posts: 24
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!

    At $4500, this would take 10 years to pay off if you get 2000kwh per year.

    I would be surprised if this would go maintenance free for that long?
  • lamplightlamplight Solar Expert Posts: 368 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!

    definitely needs lower pricing to make sense. its neat that something can generate anything even in low wind though.
    At $4500, this would take 10 years to pay off if you get 2000kwh per year.

    I would be surprised if this would go maintenance free for that long?
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!

    As SG suggests,,, it really can't produce much at low wind,,, 99 watts at 10 mph,,by the time you figure in wiring losses and controller losses and battery losses,, you might see 50 watts. At $4500 I think you are going to have to go a long way to convince me that it makes sense.

    Now,,, on the other hand,, if it produces well at say 15 mph,, AND one lived in a climate with reliable GOOD wind, AND it is reliable,, let's play with the numbers.
    Let's assume 500 watt out put 12 hours 300 days,, (They are calling for class 4 wind range,,, pretty windy for most folks) That would be ~6 kwh/day X 300= 1800 kwh/year @ $.15=$270 worth of electricity or about a 9 year capital pay off.... Not a very good deal in my world. (Assuming it ran for 9 years without major repair!)

    Take 500 watts of PV at a cost of ~$1500.

    500 watts X 5hours X 200 sunny days= 500 kwh X $.15 =$75,,, a 20 year payoff . the difference is the PV is still likely to be producing nearly full output in 20 years without needing repair in the interim. Also,, on an annual basis,, PV is way more predictable than wind. The reality is that most people over estimate both PV potential and wind,,, but I think they over estimate wind way more. I think that it is reasonable to think the PV will put out ~500 kw given my scenario,,,the wind unlikely in most cases isn't likely to blow force 4 12 hours 300 days a year.

    Tony
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 28,645 admin
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!

    And they are showing it mounted right on the roof line of a home (photo shopped I am sure)...

    That is pretty much the worst area you can mount a wind turbine... High turbulence from the house/roof/nearby folage. ANY TURBINE NOISE gets transmitted into the roof/living quarters. And s;lowly will work all of the nails/screws loose in the wood structural members of the home.

    So far--you can almost define a "Wind Scam Company" when they show their device mounted to a living structure/building sitting on the roof line.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,311 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!

    originally matt posted this in the wind section and i moved it because of their claims. they did state, however, that the "turbine will generate 2,000 kilowatt-hours in a year for a home with a very good--called Class 4--wind resource." that certainly isn't 2 mph.:roll:
  • lamplightlamplight Solar Expert Posts: 368 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!

    well, i guess im the only one here who can appreciate a technology that can generate power, albeit obviously small amounts, in low wind? If these were priced right each person could have their own mini wind farm (IF they lived in a wind appropriate location). at places like my inlaws at the ocean I would argue the wind is far more reliable and plentiful than sunlight. if it works as well as they say (yes big if) its a great thing that can be built upon (or to lower the price on).

    also these are much lower noise/vibration than a standard wind turbine of comparable size (looks like cloth blades, did i say this already?). from what they say on this issue theres no proof if you're right BB, or if it really is much lighter and would work (structurally) as good as they say mounted to a house. your argument is true for a standard wind turbine and is probably true as to it not being ideal location, but structurally and for noise they say otherwise. I keep coming back here and requoting the article, which isnt really productive. i dont have the time.

    obviously it doesnt make sense to get 4 of these for generating as much power as 1/4th the cost in solar would, more predictably, more my location anyhow. nobody has to tell me it doesnt make economical sense (even for someone like me prone to err on the side of conservation with financial losses - as i realize thats what its going to take, to a degree, in this world). I first got into RE from a magazine ad advertising fantastic claims for a small turbine (in 2004). my friends brother is an editor at HP who straightened me out, and as you all know i now have multiple PV systems running and no wind as im in a poor location for it.

    you guys seem highly resistant to new ideas, i am quite surprised. Your many, (valid of course) points are irrelevant to the fact that there is potentially a new way of making wind turbines that can generate more power with less. it doesn;t sound fantastical to me either. as far as the product implementation goes: honeywell stamping their name on it and ace hardware participation is a good thing and portends for something that that may work as advertised (if overpriced and the scale is foolish). the only worthwhile thing to argue on that in my opinion is "if it works" and "it should cost less or it wont be successful in this smaller scale". i definitely wont be buying one but if they were 1/3 the cost and had a 5 year warranty it might be a nice little auxiliary addition to my small offgrid system.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 28,645 admin
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!

    Don't trust me? Try a very pro-wind site:

    http://www.wind-works.org/SmallTurbines/Windtronics760EstimatedGeneration.html
    Earthtronic's Honeywell or Windtronics 760 Estimated Generation

    Updated May 22, 2009

    Earthtronics is now promoting the WT6000 Gearless Blade Tip Power System dubbed the Honeywell Wind Turbine. The company now claims that the multiblade wind turbine is 6 feet (1.83 m) in diameter. Thus, the turbine sweeps 2.6 m2. The previous iteration used a rotor 5 feet (1.52 m) in diameter sweeping 1.8 m2.

    However, the manufacturer claims that the new turbine will still produce 1,500 kWh/year or the equivalent yield of 577 kWh/m2/year. In comparison to other small wind turbines, the Earthtronics will need to be exposed to a wind resource of 6.5-7.0 m/s (15-16 mph) annual wind speed. Consumers are unlikely to find few if any sites in Michigan and especially at rooftop heights that windy.

    Conclusion? Again, it's unlikely that this wind turbine will produce the reported generation anywhere in Michigan by a large margin.
    WindTronics also has been posting a different design turbine drawing (more traditional looking six-blade turbine.

    Looking closer--this is probably the same turbine design shown 3/4's on from the rear (you can see the tail on this shot). The other drawing on top of the house where it appears that it is a 20+ bladed turbine is, most likely, just an attempt to make it look like the blades are turning in the wind.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • lamplightlamplight Solar Expert Posts: 368 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!

    Bill i trust your opinion im just continually surprised by the negativism i find here on new ideas, sometimes groundlessly, and definitely sometimes on points that don't even apply. i guess as i said that the experiences like which youve quoted explain alot. lots of scam artists out there and since this is a highly misunderstood area (in general population) i suppose it makes sense to be very practical.

    so honeywell has a history of stamping their name on overhyped products? this i did not know, asd their home heating/hvac stuff always seems good. very wierd
  • WindsunWindsun Solar Expert Posts: 1,164 ✭✭
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!

    What "new" idea?

    Nothing new here, just the same old over-rated, under-designed, over-priced "new" wind turbine that is going to change the world. We have been in this business for over 30 years, and this thing is just more of the same old hype. We have seen dozens of very similar designs come and go. The failure rate on most wind turbines is exceeded only by the failure rate of wind turbine companies with "new" technology.

    Just because something is touted as new does not make it practical.
    lamplight wrote: »
    Bill i trust your opinion im just continually surprised by the negativism i find here on new ideas, sometimes groundlessly, and definitely sometimes on points that don't even apply. i guess as i said that the experiences like which youve quoted explain alot. lots of scam artists out there and since this is a highly misunderstood area (in general population) i suppose it makes sense to be very practical.

    so honeywell has a history of stamping their name on overhyped products? this i did not know, asd their home heating/hvac stuff always seems good. very wierd
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!

    Lamplight,

    I think the skepticism of many is born out of (too) many years of (too) much hype,, and is indeed healthy.

    What I want to see in any new product regardless of any new technology is verifiable beta tests that test items like this in the real world. I want to see test date our real world out put, in real world conditions that include the wind information (or sun in the case of PV) so that I can evaluate it against some known parameters. I also want to see real world reliability numbers both through beta testing and accelerated age testing.

    When one reads the wind threads on this forum,, the recurring theme is one of, over stated expectations (ad hype) and understated performance. The output numbers almost never near the advertised output,, and the reliability is almost always much poorer than advertised.

    There has been some skepticism of Enphase micro inverters of late. What has become clear is that they do what they advertise,, the question is now will they stand any test of time?

    As I said in many posts,,, I would love to find a small scale wind system that is cost effective and reliable,, but I haven't yet,,, and I don't think this is it either.

    As an aside, you suggest that your families sea side property may have better wind than sun. The reality is,, without a test of either,, it is only speculation. A ten mile wind AVERAGE is a very windy place. 15 mph is very annoying to live and work in. Many seashore locations have wind,,, the question is how much on a 24/7 365 basis?

    Tony
  • nigtomdawnigtomdaw Solar Expert Posts: 705 ✭✭
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!

    Still my thanks to NAWS for the forum and Lamplight for the original post its great that NAWS allows is members to channel new products an ideas to us all, from across the globe.

    There only ever seems to be one wind turbine design that achieves regular praise and that seems to be based on Hugh Piggots design, if successful small wind turbines around the 1 to 3 kw rating can be made by backyard engineers and enthusiasts why cant the economy of scale and modern manufacturing turn out a economical turbine of merit.:confused:

    Plus I will add after icarus comments that education of siting, tower height and the potential customers wind resource should be as equally important each in there own right as well as a well made economical good performing small windturbine.

    Without all four of these factors tuned in your wind power generating life will be a dissapointing one:cry:

    Nigel
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 28,645 admin
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!

    Honeywell (Honeywell weather stations), AT&T (cordless phones), and many other corporations have been selling their logos for use on just about anything.

    Earthtronics/Windtronics is a marketing channel:
    EarthTronics President Reg Adams told the Cleantech Group the company is planning to market the new turbine across America for residential and light commercial uses, hoping for it to become the “Blackberry of wind.”
    ...
    EarthTronics worked with Honeywell International (NYSE:HON), licensing the Honeywell brand to put on its turbine. Adams said Honeywell, a technology and manufacturing company that makes everything from air purifiers to aerospace products, has an interest in alternative energy. EarthTronics has also committed to build larger turbine units for Honeywell, which could be used through Honeywell's business development group.
    For a wind turbine that is 1/4 the swept area (1.8 meter vs 3.7 meter)--they believe they will out perform the much larger SkyStream unit (don't get me wrong--the Skystream, when working properly, seems to be one of the most efficient "small turbines" out there):
    One of the company’s competitors Southwest Windpower, which makes the Skystream wind turbine, hasn’t yet been able to produce 1,000 kilowatt hours, Adams said. He said it’s still a good turbine but requires higher wind capacities, citing the problem that in America only 10 percent of the country has high enough wind speeds to power traditional turbines. In 2006, Southwest Windpower received Underwriters Laboratories (UL) certification for a key component its Skystream 3.7 residential-scale wind generator (see Southwest Windpower shipping new UL-approved residential generator).
    More on EarthTronics background from 2008:
    E-Net LLC -- a technology development company brought to GVSU's Michigan Alternative and Renewable Energy Center by the center's executive director, Imad Mahawili -- has signed an exclusive licensing agreement with Muskegon-based EarthTronics to develop, manufacture and market the WindTronics turbine line.
    ...
    E-Net has had the turbine technology ready for commercialization since the end of 2007. The company sought the right partner to launch the initial products and had been working with four suitors, Mahawili said. The product's success will not only be tied to the technology and production, but how it will get into the hands of consumers.

    EarthTronics provided the best "marketing channels" and is a Muskegon-based company, he said. EarthTronics is a start-up company that has been operating at the GVSU energy center until its space in the new Hines Building in downtown Muskegon is completed this summer.

    Adams has been a transportation company owner and manufacturing executive for Ameriform Inc. in Muskegon. EarthTronics, which arose from discussions with Chinese business leaders on a lighting product, is owned by Adams, Ameriform owners and other West Michigan investors.

    EarthTronics is a development, sales and marketing outlet for energy efficient and alternative energy products. It launched the EarthBulb -- a high-efficiency compact fluorescent light -- earlier this year.
    CFL's in 2008--???

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • lamplightlamplight Solar Expert Posts: 368 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!

    wow and good customer service too, great job!
    Windsun wrote: »
    What "new" idea?

    Nothing new here, just the same old over-rated, under-designed, over-priced "new"
  • lamplightlamplight Solar Expert Posts: 368 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!
    BB. wrote: »
    CFL's in 2008--???

    -Bill

    ouch, yea thats bad
  • loreleclorelec Solar Expert Posts: 200 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!
    lamplight wrote: »
    Bill i trust your opinion im just continually surprised by the negativism i find here on new ideas, sometimes groundlessly, and definitely sometimes on points that don't even apply.

    Regardless of the merits of this wind generator, there is definitely an air of negativism that pervades this forum. I may be biased, as I was originally brought here by a series of groundless attacks on my new product, but friends of mine who have viewed this site at my request have had less than favorable things to say about the some of the attitudes expressed here. As I've said before, a certain amount of skepticism is a good thing. But it seems to me that the opinions expressed here sometimes go far beyond skepticism -- bordering on elitism and "I know this technology better than anyone else, so don't try to tell me otherwise." Sure, there are some scams and a lot of hype out there. It's good to make note of them. But it really irriates me when someone dismisses an idea or a product out of hand when at best they might have had some fleeting experience with a bad product that perhaps "could be" similar to the product in question -- and at worst, they might just be armed with some third-hand information gleaned from the Web, and no direct experience with the product whatsoever.

    Marc
  • nigtomdawnigtomdaw Solar Expert Posts: 705 ✭✭
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!
    As I've said before, a certain amount of skepticism is a good thing. But it seems to me that the opinions expressed here sometimes go far beyond skepticism -- bordering on elitism and "I know this technology better than anyone else, so don't try to tell me otherwise
    .

    Marc guessed you just joined the elite club;)
  • loreleclorelec Solar Expert Posts: 200 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!
    nigtomdaw wrote: »
    .
    Marc guessed you just joined the elite club;)

    How's that?

    Marc
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,311 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!

    take it down a few pegs matt as you know better than that. i don't think anybody here is against wind generation, but we just aren't seeing anything real with reasonable costs from these wind manufacturers. it is dangerous, in light of the track record so far, to assume any products are wonderful and for that price tag i'd rather invest in solar.

    forgive me as i didn't search this, but is it certified?

    which of you guys with your own sharp tongues would care to buy it and report their findings to us?

    i might add that i can't recommend a product that i don't know the workmanship of or if that workmanship will be consistent for safety and performance, with safety as the reason items get certification. i am not against re products, but in my position i can't and won't recommend items that are unproven or possibly unsafe. i'm no big fan of john wiles or all of the nec's ways and methods, but the reasoning behind certifications are obvious.
    you also can't call me a pessimist when it was the wind industry itself that gave it a bad name and reputation. to those that will criticize me for my position you can do as you wish and recommend anything that is unproven to work or is unsafe and you have to answer to whom you recommended it to. are you that much of an optimist that all will go well?
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!

    Marc,

    I think you make a good point,,, and you come to this from the perspective of a manufacturer. I have been in your corner since you first showed up. I do believe that there is perhaps too much skepticism here,,, but on the other hand,, ideas (and products such as your's) rise to the top,, and the junk sinks as a result of the scrutiny. As I have said many times here that there are some very smart, very experienced folks here (i include you in that list,,not myself) who have invented the wheel so that we don't need to at every turn.

    When your product was questioned,, you were up front and forthright about it,, and offered it up for un-biased testing. I repeat my biggest issue with too many products is they don't offer real world, verifiable test results. We want to see results over hype.

    I also think that contribution of folks like yourself with different real world experience to this forum serve as a great counter weight to what may be conventional wisdom.

    Stick around and keep contributing,

    T
  • nigtomdawnigtomdaw Solar Expert Posts: 705 ✭✭
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!

    Characteristics

    Attributes that identify an elite vary; personal achievement may not be essential. As a term "Elite" usually describes a person or group of people who are members of the uppermost class of society and wealth can contribute to that class determination. Personal attributes commonly purported by elitist theorists to be characteristic of the elite include: rigorous study of, or great accomplishment within, a particular field; a long track record of competence in a demanding field; an extensive history of dedication and effort in service to a specific discipline (e.g., medicine or law) or a high degree of accomplishment, training or wisdom within a given field.

    Above from Wikepedia

    I believe you said

    "I know this technology better than anyone else, so don't try to tell me otherwise."

    Thats all

    Regards Nigel
  • loreleclorelec Solar Expert Posts: 200 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!

    Thanks, Tony. I will also say that there are a lot of good people here that outweigh the negative additudes of a few. I also like to see the numbers behind the products, and so I'm not at all saying that a product shouldn't prove itself...just that it needs to be given a chance without immediately being marginalized. If my product doesn't live up to expectations, then I'll try to make it better. With the help of people that have been using it, I've found some ways to improve it already. Since my background is in electronics, and my experience with renewable energy is more recent, I still have a lot to learn about what people want and expect with renewable products. There are a lot of aspects that I never would have taken into consideration without that input.

    Now...the $4500 price tag of that turbine is another story. ;)

    Marc
  • loreleclorelec Solar Expert Posts: 200 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!
    nigtomdaw wrote: »
    Characteristics
    I believe you said

    "I know this technology better than anyone else, so don't try to tell me otherwise."

    Thats all

    Regards Nigel

    Haha... well I wasn't applying that attribute to myself. I like to share what I know and absorb what I don't. And honestly, I don't know all that much about wind power...except that I need a wind generator here because we get near-gale force winds sometimes in the winter. :D
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 28,645 admin
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!

    Nigel,

    Edit: This has already been answered (you guys go on chat rooms much? :D ):

    I believe that Marc was characterizing other posts/posters here... And, at times, I can understand where he is coming from.

    With wind, many times, the product claims simply violate physics and aerodynamics.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • nigtomdawnigtomdaw Solar Expert Posts: 705 ✭✭
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!

    Shall we move on to Battery Desulphators:blush:

    A much less skeptical topic me thinks :p
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 28,645 admin
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!

    Just to be clear--

    Windsun (our host) wants full and complete discussions for any and all products (including those that they sell). And does not want to censor or protect anyone from differing views/information that arise.

    However--we are all human--and we all have our own "trigger points" where objective thought becomes difficult.

    The last Battery Desulphator thread just happened to become a nexus of technologies, beliefs, and moderation.

    If and/or when the next Battery Desulphator thread comes up--hopefully we can get a multiplicity of facts, experiences, and opinions on the product and keep the discussions on a professional/family friendly level.

    -Billl B. (as moderator)
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • WindsunWindsun Solar Expert Posts: 1,164 ✭✭
    Re: very promising wind turbine design idea, and coming to ace hardware ?!

    Actually I was thinking of starting up a Zero Point Energy and Cold Fusion one :D
    nigtomdaw wrote: »
    Shall we move on to Battery Desulphators:blush:

    A much less skeptical topic me thinks :p
«1
Sign In or Register to comment.