Automatic grid to renewable switch design

vanman
vanman Solar Expert Posts: 29
I have designed a wiring circuit to allow me to automaticley switch from grid power to renewable power as soon as I switch on my inverter.
I am certain this is correct now but I would like a second and third and forth opinion.

Any help would be appreciated

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Comments

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    Re: Automatic grid to renewable switch design

    I have not looked up the switches you are using... But my questions would be:

    1. You have the Blue (N) connection common between the AC mains and the Inverter. I would probably prefer to have switch both the L and N connections (double pole, single throw type switch). Keeps any surges from the mains further away from your inverter/battery setup (running on mains, the inverter is 100% isolated behind relay).

    2. The switches you have--can you guarantee that they are "Break before Make" type connections? They appear to have 2 independent control inputs--I would be concerned that you may have a race condition where one switch stays on while the other switch is connecting--and for a split second, both the inverter and mains are connected together--not my idea of "fun".

    My question is "why" are you doing this? Emergency automatic or manual power transfer (which one)? Or are you going to turn on the inverter manually--so could you use a manual transfer switch instead (double pole, single throw, break before make).

    Also, what are your loads... Lighting and appliances--or a computer and you are making a large UPS--where a 1/2-1 cycle transfer glitch can cause the computer to crash.

    If you are working with the mains (AC connection from power company)--transfer switches are safety critical devices and are not something you should wire up yourself. Any problems--and you might be open for big problems.

    If you are working with a large 2-3+ kWatt TSW (True Sine Wave) Inverter--may include their own transfer switches (and even AC battery Chargers)... So the designs can get sort of complex to make sure they remain safe.

    If this is, for example, running from a generator on your farm, and sharing with solar power--a bit less of a liability issue--but still, may be worth looking at an off-the-self transfer switch (north American product here).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • vanman
    vanman Solar Expert Posts: 29
    Re: Automatic grid to renewable switch design
    vanman wrote: »
    I have designed a wiring circuit to allow me to automaticley switch from grid power to renewable power as soon as I switch on my inverter.
    I am certain this is correct now but I would like a second and third and forth opinion.

    Any help would be appreciated

    Attachment not found.

    1 Had a lot of trouble finding a way to switch the blue neutral wire and I take note of what you are saying ,I am talking to Crydom.com about this very problem right now as we type.

    2 both the relays I have tested
    When I connect power to the HA6050 on numbers 3 and 4 ,numbers 1 and 2 connect together .
    When I connect power to the A2425-B at numbers 3 and 4 ,numbers 1 and 2 break connection.

    Maybe I could add another relay to break the neutral ?

    My original idea was I am living in my own fixed mobile home in my parents garden due to being made homeless 20 months ago (but in good shape ok ) waiting for council house on waiting list very long indeed.
    I have this solar tracker 520w Kyocera and wind turbine 1000w maxium made by futurenergy in Scotland which feeds 30 x yuasa 100Ah battery's controlled by a Xantrex C60 with a 1000w hot air dump load. this project has exploded over the last 2 years.

    I have a Xantrex prosine 1000w inverter in the garage. but my power comes from the Utility grid
    I WANT TO USE THIS WASTED POWER in my Caravan to power my pc pvr and lights which could save my parents money.
    I want to run the control panel from the Xantrex ProSine inverter into the caravan to switch the power on and off remotely and I have a Trymetric2020 new in the box which I will run into the caravan to monitor the battery's condition. Phew.

    I have been told from Crydom that the Relays are very quick in what they do ,so I should not notice any lag in power changeover.
    I tried to find a DPDT relay but they don't seem to make them in the United Kingdom at all.




    Kind Regards

    PS I have a ongoing site on youtube.com under windysolar1 also goggle will find the name as it all over the web now had 200000 hits so far and climbing.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    Re: Automatic grid to renewable switch design

    Boy--I am not sure I have the time to look into what Digital Relay would work well for you--you can get those in SCR (which will turn off at a phase crossing) or other styles (with coordinated or random on/off timing).

    My fear is that you turn on one relay instantly and the other (SCR type) turns of at the next zero voltage crossing. So, you could end up with both relays on for 1/2 a cycle--Not a good thing for synchronized inverter/grid connection. Might blow a fuse or a FET/Transistor very easily.

    You can certainly find 240 VAC DPST 24 volt mechanical relays--that would take about 1.2 watts to hold "on"... I cannot tell if it is a From C (common connection break before make relay or not from what I have seen so far)...

    The Prosine 1,000 has a 15 amp transfer switch option (don't know if it is a factory or field install option)--this was listed for the North American version--don't know if available for Europe or not.

    You might have to browse through the relay catalogs or call a supplier to see if they can direct you to the appropriate part quickly or not.

    Since you are in the UK--anything that I find for a standard AC Transfer switch is probably going to have issues in your country.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • vanman
    vanman Solar Expert Posts: 29
    Re: Automatic grid to renewable switch design

    OK Thanks Bill for your time

    I know I have a really huge task ahead and I will not be risking my inverter until I know its completely safe

    Just another problem to solve Story of my life I will overcome in the end


    Thanks again
  • Brock
    Brock Solar Expert Posts: 639 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Automatic grid to renewable switch design

    I would agree on the SCR switching, they are almost too fast and there is a chance they could both be on for a couple of milliseconds and that would be bad. I have always used DPDT contactors for that type of switching, since they physically move from one location to another they can't physically touch both sides at the same time. There is a noticeable blip when they do flip on or off though.

    Since you doing this manually I would go with a simple manual DPDT switch of some sort, it would be less expensive and simpler, although a powered DPDT relay could be fed from the inverter and if for some reason you forgot the inverter on and it shut down due to low battery voltage the system would automatically switch back to the grid.

    As Bill noted the easiest thing would be to use an inverter with an AC pass through and simply shut off the power feeding it, but you already have the inverter :)
    3kw solar PV, 4 LiFePO4 100a, xw 6048, Honda eu2000i, iota DLS-54-13, Tesla 3, Leaf, Volt, 4 ton horizontal geothermal, grid tied - Green Bay, WI
  • vanman
    vanman Solar Expert Posts: 29
    Re: Automatic grid to renewable switch design

    Found the Item I need but it may be hard to find.
    Will contact Xantrex and see what they say

    picture below

    its an opion
  • vanman
    vanman Solar Expert Posts: 29
    Re: Automatic grid to renewable switch design

    Found this 5 amp DPDT relay Here and it works fab

    Am now running sun power and off the grid

    http://www.reuk.co.uk/Switch-from-Inverter-to-Mains-Automatically.htm
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    Re: Automatic grid to renewable switch design

    You got it! :D

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • vanman
    vanman Solar Expert Posts: 29
    Re: Automatic grid to renewable switch design

    Only trouble is

    5 minutes ago My vans gearbox decided to go wrong on me.Now another expensive bill I suppose

    Just like me Beat a problem then along comes a Thunder storm for payback
  • n3qik
    n3qik Solar Expert Posts: 741 ✭✭
    Re: Automatic grid to renewable switch design

    When you do get back to this project, take note of the voltages of your mains and the inverter. If there is more than 3-5 volts difference, be very careful when switching between the two if you have any type of motor as a load.

    Why??
    Lets make the grid read 235 VAC and the inverter read 225 VAC. That is a 10 volt difference.

    Now you have a motor running on grid at 235 VAC now you switch it to the inverter that is at 225 VAC. For a milli-second the motor is going to act as a generator putting out 235 VAC into the inverter at 225 VAC. This 10 volts overvoltage could blow out the inverter.

    How I know this, been there done that. My grid is 127 VAC and my ex-inverter was 113 VAC. OOPS.

    The bigger/better ones may take the over-voltage better than the cheap POS I had.
  • blackswan555
    blackswan555 Solar Expert Posts: 246 ✭✭
    Re: Automatic grid to renewable switch design

    A single pole double throw appropriate sized relay (Transfer switch, change over relay , SPDT relay, NO/NC relay ) would do it, neutral should not be switched in your system,
    You need mechanical break ( eg a lump of metal moves from one contact to other, can not be on both at same time) For regulations to protect linesmen,
    Have a good one
    Tim
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Automatic grid to renewable switch design

    For a transfer switch, doesn't this have to be a UL approved switch, not just a $3 from shadeio rack? For an appliance or a radio, a DPDT break - before - make is fine, but for Utility Switching, doesn't this have to go upa a notch in safety?
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