Solar Panels Green????

System · February 2009

Hi,

Very new to the group here and very much a novice on solar even tho I have over the years casually kept and eye on the industry. I have never considered Solar to be what I would call Green.

None of the equipment is naturally in the shape and form it is used in. Thus there has to be a carbon foot print from production through use and in its finality.

Is everything completely recyclable?
What about the reflective heat footprint?
We know, especially those of us in the southwest, that there is a significant impact with reflective heat. The result is easily seen in the temperature differences between outlying areas and the metropolitan areas of Phoenix for example.
Will solar increase that affect and if so will the reduce carbon footprint be offset by the increased reflective heat footprint?

My only point here is that being green is not a consideration for me in looking at going to alternative power. Economics is the truly viable consideration as well as the independence.

The pay back factor is not as important as the comfort and peace of knowing that I am self-sufficient and I am not dependent on others for my well being. Our world has gotten scarier and less stable. To many people and countries are having a say in our daily lives through the threat of energy blackmail.

Are alternative energy sources more eco-friendly that fossil fuels, well the answers will prove to be yes more than likely. Are they truly GREEN, don't think so as significant manufacturing goes into producing the product.

I figure that at the age of 52, I will never see an economical pay back on most anything of significance that I do so it cannot, nor should it be a consideration.

Doing the right and responsible thing, being self-sufficient and self-reliant is the major concerns in my opinion.

It is said that we have become a nation of entitlement. Were is that proven more than our gluttonous dependence on fossil fuels and the utility companies to provide our comfort and necessities.

Just a thought, thanks for the space and I love the sight. One can get fully educated on solar and such here and that is what I intend to do. So thank you for donating your time and knowledge and experience.

Sal

BB. · February 2009

Re: Solar Panels Green????

We have discussed solar panel recycling a bit before. At one time, a few years ago, they estimated $1-$2 per watt recycling costs...

Now that panel costs are no longer $10 per watt, but approaching $3 per watt (retail)--recycling costs would almost be equal to the price of the panel (or more!).

Regarding thermal profile of solar panels in the desert. Again we have discussed this before in more than one thread. Basically, the "average" solar panel over "average" desert dirt and vegetation probably absorber more solar energy than the surroundings (even this has lots of variables)--but ships ~10-30% (depending on solar PV or Thermal/Steam type systems) to the "city"... So the panels may "cool" the desert a bit, and "warm" the cities a bit. What is the "net change"--probably to small to make any impact on the overall climate.

Will you get a payback from Solar? Realistically, no... Especially if you do not do anything about your own consumption.

I personally believe that AGM (anthropogenic global warming aka man-made global warming) is a scheme by government to alter our culture and gain centralized control over our lives (tin foil hat time).

Me, I am a conservative--don't waste, use as little as practical of everything.

Where you will realize an almost immediate return on your investment is conservation. For existing home/buildings; insulation (lots of roof, walls, floors; double pane vinyl windows, heat recovery ventilator), CFLs, new energystar appliances, high efficiency heat pumps, new computers--buy them on power used--laptops typically use less than older desktop systems, etc... I installed skylights for natural lighting and I can open them in the summer to let out some of the heat buildup/ventilation.

For North American homes, a "kill-a-watt" meter is just about perfect for checking any 120 VAC 15 amp device that plugs into your wall.

There is changing your home--where the windows/glass is located. Shading in the summer, heat gain in the winter.

Using less power in the home in the summer so that the A/C has to spend less energy moving the heat out of the home... All helps.

I don't live in a hot climate (no A/C--plus we are "cheap")--I can get my monthly electric bill down to ~200 kWhrs per month... Off grid people (with "full" electric appliances and well) used to aim for below 100 kWhrs per month.

That is laid against people who use 1,000-2,500+ kWhrs per month for AC in the summer and heating in the winter.

Yes, you can offset any amount of electricity with PV systems (GT or Off-Grid)... But it is expensive. A full off-grid system will cost you north of $1.00 per kWhr--compared to the $0.10 per kWhr that many people pay.

My own electric power in Kalifornia--If I used 1,000 kWhrs+ a month--my Time of Use plan, in the summer is $0.58 per kWhr (really, I am paying between $0.09 and $0.30 per kWhr right now--winter off-peak to summer-on peak).

What would you do if you had to pay $0.60 to $1.00+ per kWhr right now? All of us would change our personal consumption habits.

Regarding independence--I am not sure which would e worst--buying power for the power company at $0.10=$0.30 per kWhr (rough US average) or paying $1.00-$2.00 per kWhr (batteries, battery maintenance, new batteries every 5-10 years, new electronics every 5-10 years, fuel for the backup generator, etc.).

Desaster planning (hurricane, flood, earthquake, ice storms, etc.) are all important. But--putting all of the eggs in a "solar PV" basket and not having clean drinking water and enough food for 10+ days--are all higher on my list.

For me, it is cheaper (and more portable) to have a 50lb 1,600 generator and 20 gallons of fuel (electricity, heat, cooking fuel, extra to "bugout" to some place safe--if needed)--than to know I can "turn on my lights" when I have my next 2 hour power failure...

Again--everything is local--what works for me, may not for you. I live in a city where earthquakes are the next major desaster (probably). We don't have yearly ice/snow/wind storms where it can take a month to get our power back....

The last ~1 week power outage was over 50 years ago in our area. And the major issue was water (after 1 week, fear that pumped storage would go dry). Other than that, candles, natural gas (no central heat requiring AC), and eating everything out of the fridge was the issue. Power outage was local enough that could always drive a few miles for gas (windstorm knocked out the power).

To get a good idea of what can be done to save energy and live off-the-grid... Home Power Magazine is an interesting read. A lot of the stuff is common sense to save energy... But you have to be careful--some of their recommendations would cause mold in our area (damp coastal area).

-Bill

PS: I am posting my own personal opinions here--not as a "moderator"...

Everyone else is invited to add their commentary too. I am always interested in others opinions and views of the technology and politics of "going green".

If I get a little overboard :roll: --I am sure Niel (other moderator) or WindSun (Admin/owner of the board) will let us know.

There is also this subforum:

Energy Alerts, Announcements, & News Editorials,, Solar RipOffs, Scam & Hype Alerts

Which is intended for free-ranging open discussions of anything remotely energy related. Everyone is welcome to post/discuss there too.

The other forums, (including this one) are intended to be more on-topic to the discussion of the opening posts and energy--and less political.

-Bill

System2 · February 2009

Re: Solar Panels Green????

Sorry,

Must have misunderstood the

"Green Skeptics" - Product Reviews & Opinions Renewable Energy Products - reviews and opinions - is it REALLY 'green'?

in the title of thread. Thanks for the heads up.

BB. · February 2009

Re: Solar Panels Green????

No... You did fine.

I was just reiterateing that if you (and others) want to also discuss more "hot topics"--there is a forum dedicated to it. That subforum does not have as much traffic as the others and I was just inviting you over if you had something more you wanted to discuss on an "open politic" area of this board.

I have to be careful myself--I very much like to discuss politics in a civil forum (so rare these days).

I am sorry if I was not clear the first time.

-Bill

niel · February 2009

Re: Solar Panels Green????

i don't know about you guys, but none of my pvs are green unless some moss started to grow on them that i wasn't aware of.:roll::p

Ecnerwal · February 2009

Re: Solar Panels Green????

Unlike a lot things (cars and trucks, kitchen appliances, computers...) PV panels have an effective working lifetime of decades, so as a contributor to the waste stream they are pretty minor. When every beer bottle and can is recycled, then start worrying about the tiny fraction of glass/silicon waste involved with damaged solar cells. Given that our local recycling program cannot afford the fuel to take the "recycled" glass to be recycled (not much is paid for glass to be recycled, since it's mostly just sand), and simply crushes it so it takes up less space in the landfill, that will be a long time coming.

I don't think anyone is actually doing this (though someone probably should, if only for the marketing coup) but given that most of what goes into making a panel is electricity, a cell plant somewhere in the sunny southwest powered by cells would have great cachet, and would shut up the folks that are sure that solar cells take more power to make than they make (disproved endlessly, yet falsely repeated endlessly as well).

The available energy per square mile from the sun is a fixed quantity - if you reflect it, it does not magically increase (though if your neighbor reflects all of his onto you, a local increase will take place.)

The "urban heat island" effect is not a primarily reflective effect - a lot of it has to do with power pumped into the cities (electric, fuel, or otherwise) and turned into waste heat which is dumped in the city. If you are air-conditioning a few dozen skyscrapers, all the heat you remove goes right outside. If you have cars and trucks running down the street, they dump heat. If they are air conditioned, they dump more heat. The effect is observable in cloudy weather, at night, in winter, and in places far from the sunny southwest - putting all the blame on reflection is not paying attention.

Solutions to that problem on that scale are easy to envision, but very hard to envision actually happening, given decades of screwing it up deliberately - the removal of effective rail service being but one small example (car companies bought out many passenger rail (trolley) services in the early 20th century and shut them down, got rid of the ROWs, making any return to service almost impossibly expensive.)

As for an economical payback - conserve, and you'll see results next month. Unless you plan to die before your next billing cycle, real results "in your lifetime" are quite easy to get. After conserve comes "make use of solar thermal" - it's not hard or particularly expensive to have free hot water and/or heat at least some of the time. Payback on PV remains rather long, if ever, except in special circumstances (prohibitive cost to connect to grid.)

icarus · February 2009

Re: Solar Panels Green????

Urban environments also collect and hold heat in very different ways than do natural environments in similar climates. This is largely due to paving, and to a lesser extent roofing. Just consider how an acre of parking lot absorbs heat on a sunny summer day, compared to a foot ball field. Even in a desert environment the man made structures will abosorb an hold heat way more than the surrounding desert.

Almost any urban landscape will be a "heat island" regardless of climate or season. For example the bitter cold city of Winnipeg is warmer in the winter than the surrounding farmland, (not much, but measurably). Plowed asphalt absorbs heat even at -40 much faster than the snow next to it.

Tony

AntronX · February 2009

Re: Solar Panels Green????

According to Evergreen, their solar panels "pay back" the energy that took to manufacture them in 1 year of their operation: http://www.evergreensolar.com/app/en/products/item/619 It would be nice to see some details how they came up with that number. That means 170W panel takes about 150KWh to manufacture. That number is based on annual energy yield of one panel in Florida.

niel · February 2009

Re: Solar Panels Green????

be careful as you did not read that correctly.

"Energy payback as short as 12 months"

even if remotely true this is still very good and you should drop them a line and ask them how that figured that to be.

AntronX · February 2009

Re: Solar Panels Green????

I will do that. I want to know for sure as well.

System2 · February 2009

Re: Solar Panels Green????

icarus wrote: »

Urban environments also collect and hold heat in very different ways than do natural environments in similar climates. This is largely due to paving, and to a lesser extent roofing. Just consider how an acre of parking lot absorbs heat on a sunny summer day, compared to a foot ball field. Even in a desert environment the man made structures will abosorb an hold heat way more than the surrounding desert.

Almost any urban landscape will be a "heat island" regardless of climate or season. For example the bitter cold city of Winnipeg is warmer in the winter than the surrounding farmland, (not much, but measurably). Plowed asphalt absorbs heat even at -40 much faster than the snow next to it.

Tony

My point is that one should do what you can afford and have not be dependent on the return of investment.

Tony, here in phoenix the heat island affect is significant, 10 to 15 degrees difference between the city and the outlying areas. Most notable at night due to to stored energy of asphalt and the buildings.

As suggested, starting with more conservation. Just ordered two kill-a-watts from wind and sun. Next purchase is a 12 volt battery set to torture those non-compliant with forthcoming conservation policies in despots domain. ;0. Then I think solar hot water and space heating will be the next step. Space heating is rarely more than a 4 to 5 degree matter so that should be pretty simple. Problem is I have to go overhead if I want to do radiant heating as we are concrete slabs here.

Biggest prob is that I have a 12 seer A/C system rated 3.5 ton. Previous owners added 200 sqr ft to the house so now that 3.5 ton is trying to cool a 2000sft home and not doing a good job and running my electric bill up from $150 during the off season to $300 each for July Aug and Sep. Try to use the evap until the humidity gets above 50 degrees dew point. (Any suggestions???) I was thinkingl of adding a 1.5 to 2 ton window a/c to give the roof mount a break. The one on the roof is actually a heat pump.

So anyhow not the place for it but that is where I am starting and and the road I have to travel and am very thankful for this site, I am gleaning a lot of info.

BB. · February 2009

Re: Solar Panels Green????

I had a grand father that used to live in Phoenix. Even 40 years ago, the bigger issue for people was that the old swamp coolers worked well in a dry environment--but with all of people moving in and adding landscaping--the swamp coolers became much less effective even back then.

I don't have or really need A/C in our area--but from what Solar Guppy has said before---Something like add a whole bunch of attic insulation (R40+?) and install an 18 SEER A/C pump/system (make it a heat pump if you need heating).... I think those where the numbers I remembered (hopefully, SG will come in and correct me).

Ground source heat pump--may be a bit too expensive vs a high efficiency air exchange unit. Some can also provide hot water too (look for good verified recommendations / history--I have read some real horror stories about poor performance and early failures).

Otherwise, insulation (in our area, double pane vinyl windows with low E glass made a huge difference--even though my first home did not have wall insulation).

Otherwise, reducing house hold heat (in the summer) from fridge/freezer, computers, old task lighting, entertainment systems, etc., all add heat into the home in the summer--which you have to pay to take out.

Pretty much the same old broken record out of me...

-Bill

AntronX · February 2009

Re: Solar Panels Green????

What about installing solar water heater first? Does anyone have any data on KWh savings? Seems almost like a crime to use electricity to heat water, when you got so much sun.

System2 · February 2009

Re: Solar Panels Green????

BB. wrote: »

I had a grand father that used to live in Phoenix. Even 40 years ago, the bigger issue for people was that the old swamp coolers worked well in a dry environment--but with all of people moving in and adding landscaping--the swamp coolers became much less effective even back then.

I don't have or really need A/C in our area--but from what Solar Guppy has said before---Something like add a whole bunch of attic insulation (R40+?) and install an 18 SEER A/C pump/system (make it a heat pump if you need heating).... I think those where the numbers I remembered (hopefully, SG will come in and correct me).

Ground source heat pump--may be a bit too expensive vs a high efficiency air exchange unit. Some can also provide hot water too (look for good verified recommendations / history--I have read some real horror stories about poor performance and early failures).

Otherwise, insulation (in our area, double pane vinyl windows with low E glass made a huge difference--even though my first home did not have wall insulation).

Otherwise, reducing house hold heat (in the summer) from fridge/freezer, computers, old task lighting, entertainment systems, etc., all add heat into the home in the summer--which you have to pay to take out.

Pretty much the same old broken record out of me...

-Bill

The humid months are the killer. The swamp works great, but with my undersized a/c system I jump over a hundred a month when I turn the a/c on unless I stay home all day and make sure no one drops the thermo below 80. I am just wondering if I add a 1.5 ton to help out the undersized roof mount if it will help.

Solar water heating is the next project after I get the kill-a-watt and get a conservation program working. Then yes I plan not only to add more insulation to the attic but put in a thermal barrier as well. Hoping to have enough funds to apply a good coat of thermal paint to the outside as well.

As much as I would like to do this all myself, being stuck in a wheelchair has put that out of reach. ;0. Thanks for the suggestions.

As far as geothermal heating and cooling, probably not to far out of question if I have to pump the current heat pump system to 5 ton, that will run a little over $5K.

System2 · February 2009

Re: Solar Panels Green????

AntronX wrote: »

What about installing solar water heater first? Does anyone have any data on KWh savings? Seems almost like a crime to use electricity to heat water, when you got so much sun.

Antron,

Well I do plan to do that. I have the water heater on a timer. Goes off at 9am not on again until 7pm so that is not really an issue too much, and with the moderate temps here and my water heater in the closet off the garage I still take warm showers late afternoon.

Ecnerwal · February 2009

Re: Solar Panels Green????

SG also suggests, and climate wise this makes excellent sense, adding a de-superheater to your AC unit - free domestic hot water AND more efficient A/C at the same time. Put that ahead of (or instead of) solar water heating, I'd think.

Adding an A/C unit unfortunately won't make your present A/C unit any more efficient, though I certainly grasp that replacing your inefficient large one is a large expense - and some of the better window units do have good ratings, so if you can run a couple of those it might help out with the overall bill. But they don't have the option of making your hot water for free. Add the desuperheater to the big one you've got if you cannot afford a new one that will cost you less to run.

Radiant heat CAN be added to the top of your existing slab floor, but it will be disruptive. Still the best place for it, though. Essentially, if you have adequate headroom, you raise the floor level by half an inch to an inch and a half, pouring a new surface with tubing embedded. Or put the tubing in a wood surface (grooved subfloor) on top of the slab. In either case you end up doing some door trimming, and have to clear all the stuff out of each room to do it. Since you'll need to have it done, go talk to previous customers of any contractor you are considering using. Some understand minimizing disruption, and some don't. Of course, since heating is not a large part of your expense, it may not make a lot of sense to spend a lot on it - your more efficient heat pump might be the better place to put that money, with a lot less disruption.

System2 · February 2009

Re: Solar Panels Green????

Ecnerwal,

de-superheater eh, someone else mentioned that I think or they were talking about a new heat pump unit that comes with something comparable. Sounds like something to look into first. Thanks.

LucMan · February 2009

Re: Solar Panels Green????

AntronX wrote: »

What about installing solar water heater first? Does anyone have any data on KWh savings? Seems almost like a crime to use electricity to heat water, when you got so much sun.

Solar thermal is a great way to go, especially if you live in a part of the country where the Sun shines through most days. I live in NY (not the sunniest state) and in 3.5 hrs of full sun my system will heat 80 gallons of water from 55 degrees to 115 degrees. Not bad for 23 cents worth of electric to run the pumps. The electric rate here is 23 cents a KWH delivered.

Your next choice could be to install a hot water heatpump, this can connect to your existing water storage tank. The advantage over straight electric water heating is that with the heatpump you get 3 units of energy for every 1 unit that you put in. Straight electric is 1 for 1. So that would make the HP 300% efficient using 1/3 the KWH that you are using now.

System2 · February 2009

Re: Solar Panels Green????

anybody here in AZ know where to get a despuerheater? I have a friend that does A/C work and can install it, but he doesn't have a clue and I really can't find a retail or wholesaler online, and direction would be appreciated.

I did find out that by adding this to the a/c would be equiv to increasing the coil size by 10 to 15% which would bring me up to nearly a 4ton unit performance wise as far a heat dissipation. That should drop a lot of the load off the compressor. That heat pump works so hard on the those 115 degree days with 70 - 80 percent humidity is sounds like a jackhammer up there.

System2 · February 2009

Re: Solar Panels Green????

LucMan wrote: »

Solar thermal is a great way to go, especially if you live in a part of the country where the Sun shines through most days.

Solar thermal is near the top of my list, just out of the range of my pocket book right now.

LucMan · February 2009

Re: Solar Panels Green????

Sal,
Here is just 1 site, for more do a search for refrigeration desuperheaters.
Great add on for you living in Arizona. Your friend will have to add some controls and a stainless Grundfoss pump for water circulation. Depending on the quality of your water you may need to look for a cupronickle desuperheater, so make sure you have your water checked before ordering.
http://www.packless.com/desuper/desuper.html

System2 · February 2009

Re: Solar Panels Green????

Thanks LucMan, it is appreciated

niel · February 2009

Re: Solar Panels Green????

quoting from the website link:

"[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]The CDAX Series employs a "tube-in-tube" design: Potable water flows inside a double-wall convoluted copper tube in a counterflow direction to the refrigerant vapor flowing in the annulus between the convoluted tubing and the smooth outer steel tube, called the shell. This counterflow path provides the greatest temperature difference between the two fluids to yield optimum heat transfer."

now i'm not a big expert in this area, but i believe that the faster 2 objects go past each other, the less contact time between them. the less contact time between them, the lower the heat transfer. they have a temperature difference and you want to even that out or average them, not maintain it. if one side stays hot and the other cold, that tells me it's inefficient in its heat transfer.
i think i would have both flowing in the same direction.
thoughts?
[/FONT]

BB. · February 2009

Re: Solar Panels Green????

Assuming it is standard counter flow--The reason it is better is:

Freon in ([COLOR=Red]hot[/COLOR])---->([COLOR=Blue]cold[/COLOR])
====================[B]>[/B] direction of "fluid" flow
[B]<[/B]===================
Water out ([COLOR=Red]hot[/COLOR])<----([COLOR=Blue]cold[/COLOR])

Vs:

Freon in ([COLOR=Red]hot[/COLOR])---->([COLOR=Orange]warm[/COLOR])
====================[B]>[/B]
====================[B]>[/B]
Water in ([COLOR=Blue]cold[/COLOR])---->([COLOR=Orange]warm[/COLOR])

In the first example, the "pre-warmed" water will see the highest temperature Freon... And extract the most heat available from the Freon and transfer it to the water.

The second the cold water cools the hot Freon, and they reach a joint "average" warm temperature at the output. This will extract less heat overall.

Of course, this assumes the heat exchanger area is long enough (enough square inches and slow enough flow rates) for the maximum heat transfer available.

-Bill

mike95490 · March 2009

Re: Solar Panels Green????

a recent article in Homepower addresses some of this (Nov 2008)

http://www.homepower.com/view/?file=HP127_pg32_Sanchez

Mike

Solar Panels Green????

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