Outdoor lights

homerramirez · February 2009

Hi guys, we currently have 3 mercury vapor 400w outdoor lamps, that's 1200cont. watts running all night long , I will like to change those lamps for some more energy efficient, my wife likes to see our front,side and backyard (2+ acres)well illuminated , could any body recomend an outdoor lamp that is energy efficient with some decent amount of light ?.....thanks in advance.:D

BB. · February 2009

Re: Outdoor lights

I would suggest Motion Detector lights -- possibly with an IR sensitive security camera connected to your unused TV input (RCA external video jack or something).

Several reasons... With motion detectors the "bad guys" don't know if somebody turned on the lights because they are home or not... Also, the sudden light turning on will attract attention--something they do not want.

With the IR security camera (and IR flood lamps or camera LEDs)--will be able to actually see outside without having to look out the windows.

Otherwise, if you still need the lamps on overnight... High Pressure Sodium (those ugly orangish lights you see in street lamps). Just about the highest efficiency lamps out there... Probably you could cut back to 100 watt (or possibly 50 watt) lamps and still get roughly the lighting you need. If you can find fixtures that direct the light to where you need it (instead of everywhere, wall, ground directly underneath, up to the sky, etc.), you might also be able to use less power too.

Keep the other lights available to turn on when you need "white" light for evening activities.

Here is something from a Wisconsin utility that talks about about the different types of fixtures they provide.

-Bill

niel · February 2009

Re: Outdoor lights

in looking up the bulbs for hp sodium i see some low wattage ones available. i'm not sure of the base connection or the enclosure for outdoor weatherability, but i'm sure some research on your part may turn up something viable for you.
http://www.1000bulbs.com/High-Pressure-Sodium/?utm_source=Yahoo&utm_medium=CPC&utm_term=high_pressure_sodium&utm=matchtype=Advanced&utm_campaign=A-New-High%20Pressure%20Sodium
the ir cameras are good too, but unless you wish to view it real time only that it can get expensive and/or burdensome to record, especially with any kind of quality to the picture. other options of panning or tilting the camera also add considerable costs with the alternative being multiple cameras and so much more to watch/record at one time. real time multiplexing can be done to see on a single monitor multiple cameras. a bigger monitor allows for better viewing of the multiple images and can usually be switched to a single camera of choice if needed. don't forget that cameras and recorders need powered too and, although small by themselves, it can add up quickly if many cameras are used with a multiplexor, recorder, and a large monitor.

BB. · February 2009

Re: Outdoor lights

Using Niel's link... Metal Halide is even more efficient than either mercury or high pressure sodium (and very nice "white" light--type you see in the "club stores" like Costco and such). Click on a bulb (say 50 watt) and see what the Lumen rating and CRI is (Color Rendering Index--100 equals sunlight, 22=ugly orange street lamp, mercury=40, Metal Halide=65-70).

HP Sodium bulbs generally last longer than Metal Halide or Mercury (16k hours vs ~8k hours).

-Bill

blackswan555 · February 2009

Re: Outdoor lights

Low pressure sodium are about the cheapest to buy / run this side of the pond, Most of our common street lights are a 70/90w LPS, horrible light , but if is just for security / night light use, Maybe acceptable ?
Be aware when you are talking about for example a 400w HPS, it does not use 400w, More like around 550w to start, then around 480w when warm, this applies to HPS/MV/MH and pretty much everything with a ballast in,
Have a good one
Tim

homerramirez · February 2009

Re: Outdoor lights

Thanks guys for your time , I'm learning every day from this forum;)

BB. · February 2009

Re: Outdoor lights

Low pressure sodium lamps are the most efficient (lumen per watt). 55 watt LPS=6,600 lumen. 50 watt HPS=3,400 lumen. Metal Halide 50 watt=3,400 lumen. Mercury Vapor=1,520 lumen.

Be aware that our eyes respond to lighting in a logarithmic fashion... A 2x change in light level is hardly noticeable. A 10x change in lighting level is "night vs day" (10x lamp will swamp the smaller lamp).

However the LPS bulbs are typically more expensive and your choice of fixtures may be somewhat limited (not near as popular as the other bulbs talked about).

Lastly, LPS has almost the same color as a "yellow traffic light"... Very mono-chromatic (CRI=0). Nothing will look "right" in terms of color.

-Bill

PS: Add up how much electric power you are using ~1,500 watts 10 hours per night average (?):

1.5kW * 10 hours * 365 days per year * $0.10 per kWhr = $547.50 per year

Just for your 3 lamps, you are using about 2x my entire home power budget--but I don't have your security requirements or an A/C system--so your costs may be reasonable for your needs.

Cariboocoot · February 2009

Re: Outdoor lights

We had mercury vapour lamp for the yard too; big energy eater, even with timer & photocell control. I replaced it with two pairs of motion sensing units with 100 watt floods. Since they only come on in the dark when triggered, it cut usage significantly. BUT they do trigger for tree branches, blowing leaves, snowstorms, birds, and cats chasing birds.

At the cabin we have solar powered "ultrabright" white LED 'patio' lights (Emerald brand). They light up well enough to get wood out of the shed in pitch darkness! Got them from Canadian Tire for a ridiculously low price of 4/$9 - and now they don't have them at all! They are really bright - vastly superior to the dull amber ones I had before. Most of these type aren't very bright and are very cheap so they don't stand up for long.

I think you need to define your lighting purpose: security, safety (see to get from car to house), or appearance. For security/safety the motion lights are good. For constant 'appearance' lighting some form of white LED solar units might be better. Of course, you can always combine the two in whatever form suits you.

icarus · February 2009

Re: Outdoor lights

I personally think that "security" lights are a bit over board,,, especially when they are on all hours! A few well placed motion sensor lights, and if you are worried about "security" then tie these to horns or alarms or cameras or what have you,, but to burn 100's of wh each and every night is IMHO a great waste.

I do concede that perhaps I would feel differently if I were in a "high crime" neighbourhood, but I think a lot of people's paranoia feeds more paranoia.

Please don't barrage me with hate mail,

Tony

mike95490 · February 2009

Re: Outdoor lights

Projector LED's

http://www.luminus.com/content1034

makes Mongo size LEDs for projection TV. Replaces a arc lamp, lasts for lifetime of projector. Pricey. several hundred $ ouch.

Would take a heck of a driver for it, and a decent heat sink.

http://resources.zdnet.co.uk/articles/video/0,1000002009,39444416,00.htm

Is a nifty 5 minute video about these LED's and how they are used (3 colors) in a projector, instead of the the big lightbulb.

http://www.necanet.org/files/LEDLighting_P.pdf

only 4 pages, and a easy read

excerpt:
Current efficiencies
Incandescent : 12-15 Lumens per Watt (LPW)
Fluorescent/CFL: ~50 LPW
2008 LEDs : 60 LPW

Cariboocoot · February 2009

Re: Outdoor lights

icarus wrote: »

I personally think that "security" lights are a bit over board,,, especially when they are on all hours! A few well placed motion sensor lights, and if you are worried about "security" then tie these to horns or alarms or cameras or what have you,, but to burn 100's of wh each and every night is IMHO a great waste.

I do concede that perhaps I would feel differently if I were in a "high crime" neighbourhood, but I think a lot of people's paranoia feeds more paranoia.

Please don't barrage me with hate mail,

Tony

Nope. No hate mail: you're spot on! Some studies conclude that the "on all the time" lights give bad guys just what they need to lurk in shadows and case the place. Motion sensor lights make them think twice: maybe it's motion-sensor, but maybe it's some guy with a shotgun full of rock salt!
Only down side is the number of 'unthreatening' things that can trigger them.

'Coot

icarus · February 2009

Re: Outdoor lights

Not only that but they wreck the night vision of the rest of us, destroy the night sky!

We live 100 km from the nearest electric light, and yet I can see the glow on the horizon of the city, especially in the winter with reflection off the snow! Every municipality should have good dark sky lighting regs. (You can still have safe, secure outdoor lighting, just mandate that it shineS DOWN!)

Merrit BC has passed a dark sky bylaw, and there is a considerable tourist trade in "night sky watching" as it is one of the darkest places in N.America.

How many malls and car dealers have you driven by lit up all night,,, with the light globes pointing 360 degrees! Doesn't make a lot of sense if you as me.

Tony

niel · February 2009

Re: Outdoor lights

tony,
you have to have people to have crime and you're out in the middle of nowhere.:p i do, however, agree with your point of view about the security lights. crime is fairly high around me and i do not leave lights on outside. i did think of the motion sensor lights, but small breezes would trigger the lights from trees and plants moving. i still may deploy a few small wattage lights with sensors down the line. cameras do not deter crimes from occurring either and only help in identification if you have enough detail on your camera and recorder. even when putting up signs warning of cameras, many criminals may also think the cameras are dummies and you're using cheap deterrents, so that may work in one's favor of getting a good picture of them taking from you.:roll:

Cariboocoot · February 2009

Re: Outdoor lights

niel wrote: »

tony,
you have to have people to have crime and you're out in the middle of nowhere.<snip>

If only that were true! We've had plenty of crime at the cabins around 'our' lake. To get there you need to go 35 kms down one logging road, then 5 kms down another, less-used logging road. Then leave the path and snake through woods another 1 km. But they still show up and steal things! Last time they took a spare wheel for my old boat trailer because it was the only thing not fastened down! Neighbors had their shed raided while they were on the lake fishing.

But we've had more crime down here in the valley.

And Icarus is right about the night light: down here in the valley I have to block the bedroom windows at night to keep out the orange glow off the polluted air. Up there you can see all the stars!:D

niel · February 2009

Re: Outdoor lights

cariboocoot,
at the risk of my sounding like a smartbut, who do you think took those items? grizzly bears? squirrels? or bull winkle? my statement still holds true that you have to have people to have crime. i never said they had to live right there though.:p

Cariboocoot · February 2009

Re: Outdoor lights

niel wrote: »

cariboocoot,
at the risk of my sounding like a smartbut, who do you think took those items? grizzly bears? squirrels? or bull winkle? my statement still holds true that you have to have people to have crime. i never said they had to live right there though.:p

Ha! Ha! But you implied Icarus was safe from theft by living in the middle of nowhere! Besides, I'd put nothing past the bears around there.:D

icarus · February 2009

Re: Outdoor lights

Point in fact, ever the years (75+) we have had little problems. For 50+ of those years we were not generally accessible. We were 150 km from town, and the only way you could get to the lake shore was by train or canoe, (or dog team!) This made it kind of hard for thieves. The advent of the snowmobile changed that. You could now run 50 km from the nearest road up the lakes and across the portage trails pretty easily. We got a road to our lakeshore about 1985. In the old days our keys hung on a nail, and all the local trappers knew where it was. Being able to get in a cabin at -40 might save someone's life!

Break ins of remote cabins and camps do happen, but they see to happen in spurts,, mostly in the winter. Pretty easy to roll up with a skido and a sleigh and fill it with outboards, generators, solar panels, power tools. The catch is that we do have a couple of neighbours in the surrounding 30 kms, so a strange snow machine doesn't go unnoticed.

Summer is less of a problem, because there is only one landing, and if you show up there with a boat load of stolen stuff, there is a reasonable chance that you are going to run into one of us on the road.

We lock stuff up, but don't get too paranoid about it. In the summer, we will leave everything open even if we go away for a couple of weeks. Winter, we keep a chain around the boats, lock the house and hope for the best.

Tony

niel · February 2009

Re: Outdoor lights

motion lights would be the best answer, beside the obvious thing of locking everything up, because the thief can't be 100% sure you didn't turn that light on(use longer delays so the thief doesn't figure it out right away that it's on autopilot). the more difficulty and the more uncertainty a thief may have, the more likely he'll leave you alone. if the thief is determined to target you, you won't stop him and that's where identifying the guy is good by secretly recording video on ir cameras. big open cameras and signs of warning will only make a thief look for the video equipment to take or destroy it and the evidence of his deed.
from a power use perspective, the motion sensor lights can save over leaving it on all night. sifting through the various types of lights for the best illumination and wattage for your application also helps.
as to living in the middle of nowhere, i never said you would be safe from crime, but you are far safer from it than in more populated areas because there are more people in those areas and therefore more of the lowlifes that would steal from you. in your case tony, it also stands to reason that the more people that visit you the more likely one of them will target you. in such a case, the fewer that see what you have and where, the better. it is also best that you not go into too many details here on what you have and how it's secured.

homerramirez · February 2009

Re: Outdoor lights

My wife will like to see some decent lighting outside, I suggested that I'll leave (grid tied) the 3- 400w dusk to dawn big lights on a separate motion detectors and install next to ea. 1 GE energy smart 26w flood light (78w. total), I will like to run those lights with my battery bank and just wonder if I will have enough juice on my battery bank to do it, my Samlex S-2024A uses 20w on power save mode plus the 78w for the energy smart flood lights, I have 400ah @ 24v, do you guys know what voltage I should be reading at the time to turn on the flood lights, I mean , will it run continuosly 7hrs,. those 3 lamps?
thanks for your help

BB. · February 2009

Re: Outdoor lights

Those mercury vapor lamps take a minute or three to start up--plus, turning them on and off multiple times per night will probably make them expensive and useless as security lights.

In your case, get some very bright (250-500 watt) halogen lights in a focused housing with motion detectors. You are better with them turning on and off for 2-4 minutes vs running any other lights 10-20 times longer over night.

For example, Say you have 3x 500 watt fixtures that light off 6 minutes an hour for 12 hours a night.

3x 500 watts * 10 hours * 6min/60 min per hour = 1,500 watt*hours per night.

The equivalent 12 hour a night lights (in three fixtures):

1,500 WH * 1/3 fixtures * 1/12hours per night = 42 watts...

Those three bright motion detector controlled lamps would use the equivalent at leaving 3x 42 watt lamps on 12 hour per night.

I have to go right now--but those amount of lamps you are talking about--work out the watt*hours or kWH they would use... It would probably take a 1,000+ watt array to keep them running--not a money saver at all.

-Bill

ron17571 · February 2009

Re: Outdoor lights

The LED lights with some sort of motion detecter is what ive been considering.ive been trying to come up with a recording device to hook up to this also.back east they use alarms, out west its people having guns.dogs are good.If your place is unattended i would make sure i had insurance and hide anything valuable,false wall or vault.thieves suck!

niel · February 2009

Re: Outdoor lights

leds will not illuminate very much, not even with the ir type of leds for cameras. you would need allot of them to even see 20-40ft. power leds may help, but are somewhat directional and you may still need more of them for multiple directions. for larger areas i don't think one centralized source placement of leds will work as you may need to have multiple spots for them. all in all, you are upping the power with power leds or any large quantities of leds making other lighting more attractive and cost effective. all conditions, needs, and wants differ though.

Ecnerwal · February 2009

Re: Outdoor lights

That depends drastically on the particular LED light in question. Given what the single Luxeon in my 2AA minimag retrofit will light up (20-40 feet is not problem, and it's a tiny thing) (and given that it's not operating anywhere near full power that it can run - the 3D & 4D Mag-Light LEDs do much more, and the hoighty-toighty Tactical LED lights do more than those) there's certainly a strong likelihood that someone has put those to work in a "fixed" lighting fixture that would make a 300 W halogen look dim.

There are certainly a lot of crappy "LED fixtures" out there, with 3, 9, 27 or 150 T1-3/4 LEDs in them. They are jokes as compared to the serious players in the market - Luxeon and Cree for two.

Now, I know where to get decent LED flashlights, and I don't know of any decent LED "security lights" - but they are probably out there if you look.

One hint - if you don't see a reflector, it's a joke fixture.

mike95490 · February 2009

Re: Outdoor lights

Ecnerwal wrote: »

One hint - if you don't see a reflector, it's a joke fixture.

That's a pretty broad statement, as the LED element can pretty much do about 3/4 of the reflectors work, just by the LED being produced right. Off the production line, you can get 5º, 20º, 30º 60º or 120º beam spread, no reflector needed. What's more important, is a proper heat sink for the LED, that's why the 3Watt AA mini-mag is "wimpy", not enough heat sink capacity.

here's a sample
http://www.luminus.com/content1452
replacement LED's for projector arc lamps. The bare die on a heatsink, at 900 lumens, and no more arc lamps.

ggunn · August 2012

Re: Outdoor lights

leemike wrote: »

Hi,First I had a led light motion sensor lights but now I changed the entire home security system and Now I install the cctv led security camera it's moving cam and give me the clear view of my set up range.
so I just would like to say,Spend For Saving .

You know that this is a 3 1/2 year old thread, right?

Outdoor lights

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