I just burned up a #SW5548 XANTREX

System · December 2008

For about 5 years now until today I have (had ) 2 continuous running SW5548's running 240 volts to my whole house and workshop off grid. About a month ago I bought an ARC WELDER and have been successly welding a few hours (noonish during peak solar panel production) nearly every day. Welder was pulling a 15amp (quickly fluctuating 13 to 17 amp per inverters built in meter) continuous draw on each inverter. About a minute after I stopped welding, 250amp feed circuit breaker feeding one of the inverters popped. I reset the breaker and it immeditately reset and arcing was seen inside inverter and smoke came pouring out.

Anybody else have any experience with welding? Anybody have any troubles with induction current?

Just a case of bad luck for me, or, is welding a known problem?

Any help appreciated.

Thanks,***Don Schnapp

P.S. Anybody got an extra used #SW5548 XANTREX they want to sell me? Email me don@donsbulbs.com Make sure my LAST NAME is included in the email somewhere otherwise my spam catcher will delete.

If I can't find a used #SW5548 at a decent price, I'm thinking of upgrading to a XW6048. Any know problems with running an ARC WELDER, or induction loads with a XW6048?

mike95490 · December 2008

Re: I just burned up a #SW5548 XANTREX

Welding, well, I don't know. Lots of current, surges, spikes. I'd guess you were luck it lasted as long as it did. Maybe better luck with an isolation transformer, it might tone down some of the surges.

System2 · December 2008

Re: I just burned up a #SW5548 XANTREX

Maybe I'll try an isolation transformer next time.

BUT, nowhere did I ever hear that I couldn't do same with SW5548 that I couldn't do with power grid power (assuming I stayed under 11,000 watts (2 x SW5548's) at 240V. ARC welder was using about 3800 watts, water pump was using another 1080 watts (which was on at the time), plus, a couple of low watt fluorescent lights were on. Should have been well under 1/2 the rated continuous load of these units.

Does anybody know the expected life span of a SW5548? Are these normally expected to go out every 5 years of moderate use? Should I expect to replace the remaining SW5548 anytime soon? I had to immediately re-wire the one remaining SW5548 to run now the whole house (at 120V) as I'm currently now just limping along without 240V...

Should I try to find a used SW5548 (ending up with two total again), or, start over with a single XW6048 (which I'm to understand is 120V/240V from the factory set)? Then in future maybe adding a 2nd XW6048 (apparantly you can parallel 3 units total)?

I was heavy into research of systems about 5 years ago when I put this one in. I've been out of the loop since then, so I now need to be brought up to speed very quickly...

Thanks, - Don Schnapp

Brock · December 2008

Re: I just burned up a #SW5548 XANTREX

As far as I know there haven't been any issues with them running any loads under the rated wattages. I used to have stacked SW2512's and ran 4000w continuous off them for 4 hours at a time with no problems at all. When we moved we upgraded to the XW6048.

If I had to guess it was just a failure, nothing in them should let them fail like that, but who knows. I am not sure if Xantrex repairing it would be cheaper or upgrading to the XW line would be cheaper. I would try to find someone local that could take a look at it; there aren't that many "big" parts to fry in there.

mikeo · December 2008

Re: I just burned up a #SW5548 XANTREX

P.S. Anybody got an extra used #SW5548 XANTREX they want to sell me? Email me don@donsbulbs.com Make sure my LAST NAME is included in the email somewhere otherwise my spam catcher will delete.

Why don't you just ship it off and get it repaired? I would suspect that would be a lot cheaper than buying a new SW5548 which would run around $2800 plus shipping.

niel · December 2008

Re: I just burned up a #SW5548 XANTREX

i don't know about getting it fixed as it is apt to do it again. it is now an outdated inverter and may not be worth it for this reason. getting another one of the same could also have the same result. i wouldn't rule these options out to take the chance on if the price is right given the costs involved for the alternative. up to you.

System2 · December 2008

Re: I just burned up a #SW5548 XANTREX

If I decide to stick with #SW5548, I expect to try to get this burned out one fixed if possible. My intention would then be to have two #SW5548's running again, and, to buy an extra one to have on hand ready for future burn out.

I've seen some used #SW5548's advertaised for $1000 to $1500, but I contacted those sellers and those have all been sold already. I'll have to keep looking. If I could pick up 2 used units for around $1000 to $1250 each (then giving me an extra inverter on hand as a spare), I probably wouldn't pursue trying getting this burned out one fixed.

But, if I have to pay $2800 for a new #SW5548, then I probably should consider to persue a #XW6048. And sell off my remaining good #SW5548.

Bottom line is I still need somebody to answer and make this one point CRYSTAL clear as I've never seen this point posted anywhere concerning inverters (nor in the Xantrex instruction manual): Is there ANY known problems with ARC-WELDING with any of these high-end inverters as long as average current draw is well below rated continuous current? Again, I was arc-welding at currents well under half of the rated continuous current ratting of these units. If there is any known probelms with arc-welding, then I will probably have to wire up a 240volt electric motor to drive a 5000W 240V generater head to run my arc-welder which would then 100% completely isolate the arc welder from the inverter.

- Don Schnapp

n3qik · December 2008

Re: I just burned up a #SW5548 XANTREX

Are using a stick welder or a Mig/Tig welder ??

A basic stick welder is just a large transformer with some diodes. This should not be a problem with the inverters.

Mig/Tig's use a high frequency arc. This could have backfed into the inverters.

Long shot- was the ground for the welder connected to any earth grounds from the inverters??

BB. · December 2008

Re: I just burned up a #SW5548 XANTREX

I have not heard of any problem during the time I have been reading here (couple of years)...

Poster "Adas" has been setting up an off-grid fabrication site, including Arc Welders, in Hawaii. Although, he has been using the "cheaper" Modified Sine (or Square) Wave inverters for his system--which is pretty large (both in inverters and battery banks).

One way around the issue for you, may be to try and get a large MSW inverter connected to your battery bank and use it just for welding... It may be somewhat less efficient (0-25% extra losses)--but the inverter will be cheap and you won't have a heart attack if it kicks the bucket too.

There is another possibility--the arc welder and inverter setup a resonance circuit--basically, the inverter and welding transformer started to oscillate--high currents running back and forth between the to devices. If you have some large capacitance in the system (i.e., starting and/or motor run capacitors or something else), a resonance could happen--but I do not know enough about possible interactions to say if this could happen for sure, or not.

And, as N3QIK suggests, look for possible ground paths through the inverter and welder... Should not be any through the primaries--unless the welding transformer is auto-wound (for example, a common AC Neutral and Welding Ground).

If you have 5+ years on your inverters of reasonable use (not just used a couple weeks a year)--could also just be "one of those things" where the inverter would have failed with any load eventually.

I probably would not put much money into repairing this one... Parts and support could be hard to get--may must need to get the next generation equipment.

Lastly--the inverters are getting good ventilation (cool/clean/dry air)... No salt water breezes getting on the circuit boards, or running hot from poor cooling, etc....

-Bill

System2 · December 2008

Re: I just burned up a #SW5548 XANTREX

I was running a basic, common "stick" AC/DC Lincoln type ARC-WELDER in DC mode dialed in around 135W using 1/8th inch #6011 rod, running with reverse polarity as recommended for this rod. I've used this exact set up with amps dialed in bewteen 70 to 140W for about a month (before inverter burned up). Averaging about 10 hours a week, maybe 20% to 50% duty cycle on average.

Welder is located about 100 feet from inverters, fed by #8 wire.

This welding project did happen to be sitting on the ground (dirt, earth) which is often the case with most of my welding projects, so I guess the "ground" DC welding lead was likely earth "grounded" to at least some extent. It's not clear to me why this would make any, or much, difference. I constantly was connecting and re-connecting ground wire on different possitions of project and never felt any "jolts" between the ground clamp and the project. As typical with any project; I occasionaly will feel minor jolts through my body while sitting/leaning on the project while inserting fresh weld rod to to the positive stick holder.

Come on guys, anybody out there personally with extensive hands on experience with running an electric arc-welder / machine shop exclusively using inverters? Especailly either the Xantrex SW5548 ('s), or, even SW4048's.

Does anybody know where XANTREX stands on the arc-welding issue?

- Don Schnapp

VolcanoSolar · December 2008

Re: I just burned up a #SW5548 XANTREX

FWIW, I had a similar problem with a new SW4024 a few years ago. The unit had only been in operation for a week. I fired up a large metal-cutting chop saw for the first time, and a moment later heard a loud pop from the inverter, followed by that distinct burnt-electrical smell.

It was repaired under warranty and has been fine ever since. I still get a little nervous every time I fire up that chop saw though.

I also weld, but have not yet set up my equipment. I'm curious to know if you find any like between welding and your inverter failure.

Vic · December 2008

Re: I just burned up a #SW5548 XANTREX

My 2-cents,

Welding is a messy process. In order to strike the arc, a direct short is created at the output of the transformer/diodes. There is a huge peak current reflected into the power source. The magnetics and resistance of the entire circuit is the thing that limits the input current to the welder (IIRC). Any meter, especially digital ones (as in the inverters) will do a very poor job displaying the PEAK current. It is possible to get largish voltage spikes from the inductance in the transformer/wire runs. Perhaps an MOV transient suppressor might help a bit. But, to me, it is the PEAK current demand of a stick welder ( and perhaps any other welder for that matter), that is the real problem.

I would think more than twice before I'd run a stick or even a TIG wilder on my Off-Grid system. The MIG welders have a large capacitor bank on the output of transformer/diodes. This supplies a lot of the peak current required, and averages the input current over time, perhaps gentler on the power source.

An RE system is very nice inthat they are usually silent and reliable, but I wonder if a motor/generator welder and fossil fuel would be more reliable, and if correctly sized, would produce superior weld quality.

YMMV, just my few cents. Good Luck, Vic

System2 · December 2008

Re: I just burned up a #SW5548 XANTREX

Yes Vic,

I do understand the theory. And, I do appreciate everybodies opinion. But what we need is facts. Published does and don'ts. And, I also want to hear from anybody with hands on experience.

Nowhere can I find anything XANTREX has published, nor ANYBODY's personal direct experience with welding, running a machine shop, nor do I know of any OTHER possible prohibited usage of these (or any high end commercial) inverters.

I need tue facts (not just opinions). Come on guys let's get with it! Put it here BLACK and WHITE... Are any of these high wattage inverters properly designed to handle welding? Is there ANY known/published prohibitive activities with these inverters?

If welding is prohibited; then is it acceptible to use an 240V 5000W isolation transformer as a solution for welding? Or, as a last resort how about a 240V 5000W motor mechanically connected (fully electrically isolated) to a 240V 5000W generator head the ultimate solution?

I need a total and permanent ELECTRICAL solution for running my workshop by solar originated energy. I have plenty of solar panels and plenty of battery storage, and I'm usually producing DOUBLE the energy that I'm able to use and store. My goal is to be 100% self producing energy independent. I do have gasoline back-up generator but good news I haven't even started it in over 4 years, and, my intention is to never again use oil energy to run my house nor workshop.

I still use oil energy to run my car. But as soon as it's realistic, I'll buy an electric car when they can provide me with minimum 250 to 300 miles per charge up (I'm 60 miles minimum round trip to closest town; over steep windy mountain roads).

- Don Schnapp

Vic · December 2008

Re: I just burned up a #SW5548 XANTREX

Hello again,

Did know what you were asking, as do read and understand english.

Read ALL of the puslished specs and info from Xantrex. Evaluate it yourself. Make your own decision, and perhaps others who have REAL experience will chime in, however, each application will be different. So, again it will be up to YOU to make the decision.

I have numerous welders. BUT ... you know what have said previously.

Perhaps, you are on the wrong Forum ...

Try; http://www.xantrex.com/forum/default.asp

Good Luck Vic

mike95490 · December 2008

Re: I just burned up a #SW5548 XANTREX

schnapp wrote: »

If welding is prohibited; then is it acceptible to use an 240V 5000W isolation transformer as a solution for welding? Or, as a last resort how about a 240V 5000W motor mechanically connected (fully electrically isolated) to a 240V 5000W generator head the ultimate solution?

Even an isolation transformer, is prone to still let surges/spikes through, smoking another unit.

I would call (not email) Xantrex, and ask them specifically, and have them reply by postal letter (hard copy).

Aside from spinning loss, I don't see why a motor/generator would not do the trick, get a generator that does not require much of a regulator (off a expired genset?) because the welder will confuse the regulator. You may be able to get a 3600 RPM DC motor, and drive your generator directly. AC motors run 20% hotter (roughly) on mod-sine inverters, so beware of those.

I just burned up a #SW5548 XANTREX

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