How much of those XW-System components do I really need?

aj164 · December 2008

I'm looking for people with experience with the Xantrex XW-Series inverters. The "XW System" appears to comprise of the following separately-sold parts:

Inverter/charger
Power distribution panel + wiring cabinet
Solar charge controller
System control panel
Generator start controller

The question is do I need all of these things?

This is a PV system (so I need at least one charge controller). I definitely need the inverter, and I suppose I will need the power distribution panel. I believe I read here somewhere that another manufacturer makes a power distribution panel that will work. Is it worth looking into?

Also, the system control panel -- I guess that is a must. ?

Thanks,

AJB

Cariboocoot · December 2008

Re: How much of those XW-System components do I really need?

You don't need a gen start unit unless you want the system to automatically start your (compatible) generator when necessary.
You do need some sort of power dist & wiring with breakers/disconnects, et cetera. But not necessarily theirs: wire is wire. Just be sure any sort of cut-out is sized properly for the application.
The system control panel may/may not be needed depending on how the thing is factory pre-set. It co-ordinates the CC & Inverter (+gen if used) so that every component agrees where the batteries are at and where they should be going. Pretty good idea to have one.
A temp sensor for the charge controller is also a good idea if the batteries are apt to be subjected to a wide temp variation (as in most temperate zones).

Basically: panels, charge controller, batteries, inverter, and wiring as needed.

And remember: no matter what you think now, you will be expanding in the future!

System2 · December 2008

Re: How much of those XW-System components do I really need?

Cariboocoot makes some good points. I'd say you need even less of that stuff. Some of it is important, but your system will work just fine without the extras.

Skip the "system control panel". Do you remember all the meters and lights that used to be on a car dashboard? They're gone because most people never understood them. You can get blinky lights on a $50 charge controller that tell you enough about the state of your system. If you're a techie who wants more, a couple of switches and a cheap multimeter hung on the wall is a classic solution. Besides, people don't realize that you have to routinely calibrate the fancy meters for the info to be accurate.

You can get a power panel and wiring cabinet at your local hardware store that will do the job just fine. And because it isn't marketed to the solar buyer, magically it will cost a fraction of the price. The fact that the solar power panel is "prewired" just isn't worth an extra $1000, IMO. Prewiring saves time, but that's usually not critical enough to justify 10 times the price. It's most valuable when the installer really doesn't understand the system. And unless you're okay with damaged equipment, whoever does the installation needs to check that everything is connected right, no matter what the labels say.

Generator start controllers are great on a freezing, rainy night when you really don't want to go out and start the genny. That's also when it's most likely that you have to manually choke the beast to start it, so the start controller doesn't work. A simple push button switch will start your generator remotely, if it wants to start. Gennies have the most "personality" in your system. smile

This isn't just about Xantrex. They have some excellent products. This is about adding a label saying "solar", and another zero to the price.

Ana Douglas
http://www.verdenova.com

Solar Guppy · December 2008

Re: How much of those XW-System components do I really need?

I wouldn't be so quick to discount the distribution box,

For starters it has all the required AC and DC disconnects, its also UL approved, buying a generic box may hide things, but your building inspector will probably have you remove it and do the installation with UL approved parts

On the remote, its required if you wish to change default settings for the charger, sell back values ect ... I wouldn't use an XW without one

Buying all the xantrex stuff might cost more, but its a slick, compliance approved product and offers savings in the installation side.

boB · December 2008

Re: How much of those XW-System components do I really need?

If your system is going to be inspected, then you should definitely think about a box for integration. If you would like to save a little $$ and space, you might check out the MidNite Solar XW box at www.midnitesolar.com

boB

mike95490 · December 2008

Re: How much of those XW-System components do I really need?

Solar Guppy wrote: »

On the remote, its required if you wish to change default settings for the charger, sell back values ect ... I wouldn't use an XW without one

And that's a fault Xantrex is wishing upon themselves. After spending several thousands of dollars, they want to stiff users for the "Control Box". Same problem with Outback and their "Hub". Thousands for many pieces of gear, and you Have to buy one more, to control them all, at virtual gunpoint (or it won't work right).

Maybe other vendors are doing it too, but I think it stinks. Sure, charge extra for the fancy stuff, but for the essentials (oil pressure, fuel gauge, speedometer), they should be included when a multi-pack of products are bought. Sure if you want something more than a basic installation, but you should not need to buy a control box because you want your batteries not to boil, or starve, because you need to program generator settings or whatever . <rant off>

I suppose as markets shift/mature, this will eventually sort itself out, but, the first one, X or O, to integrate "The Control Box" into a purchase package, will surge ahead in a educated marketplace. I know how I'd feel after spending thousands of $$, to find out that I still need to spend more, to tie it all together.

hermit · December 2008

Re: How much of those XW-System components do I really need?

i set up my first system using all missmatch and seperate components, in the end it was expensive, i doubt 100% code compliant and looks home made. this system will now run my shop.
my new system which is an xw4024, xwmppt charge controller, midnight solar distribution panel, xw controller, xw gen start. if you fork out the cash for the inverter the small added price for the controller is minimal (yes it would be nice if it was included) to fine tune you will need this.
the midnight piece is ok and less pricey but i would use the xantrex distribution panel next time as it offers more versatility (eg: multi charge controller capability and soft core wiring)
if you want a nice setup, easier to satisfy electrical inspector and comparable pricing stick with a quality manufacturer and use that manufacturers components. the system will function better and component compatibility will not be a problem. the xw system is set up to communicate with each of its components for ease of use and reliability and max harvest.
just my 2 cents.

System2 · December 2008

Re: How much of those XW-System components do I really need?

XW 6048, XWmppt, XW System Control Panel (SCP), Midnite XW e-panel, 5500 watt geny without a start up controller, 12 Kyocera 205 into a midnite combiner box, 2 strings of 8=16 US Batteries @ 840 AH. As I type this I'm in "Grid Support Mode" on my one week old system. Everything so far is humming along pretty well.

The XW wiring box would, no doubt, work quite well. I didnt have the extra room to the side for the box. The Midnite XW box buttons up quite nicely to the bottom of the XW6048, and the XW charge controller on the right side of the Midnite box. Plus there was that saving of a few $.

It is currently 25 degrees outside and the garage is 30. With the many trips that I have made so far in and out of the garage I am seriously considering on moving the SCP to the inside. The basic settings were good but not what I wanted. . That's when I got into the "advanced mode" settings by way of the SCP. It seems well thought out and easy to get things switched on and off inside the XW6048 and the XWmppt the way I want it. Everyone's system is unique to their needs

If and when I need the generator, I'll fire it up, flip a few breakers and its charger time.

Either power distribution panel will save you a heap, ton, gob, bunch, lot of time in the wiring of your system.

nigtomdaw · December 2008

Re: How much of those XW-System components do I really need?

I think the manufacturers have got it about right allowing the option to buy a controller or not.

An OB FX or XW and the Magnum series units will perform without a controller but all need a Control Panel to alter settings . To tune the system . So offering a package of Inverter Charger + Controller as a price saving package then becomes unfair for the guy who wants to add another inverter say.

Making the inverter with out the controller keeps costs down and yes each install in 99.9% of the time needs a controller . However if OB or X made a new version of there charge controllers with out a LCD controller display built in which would be linked to the main controller unit or a master XW60 or Flexmax CC with LCD controller built it and offered a cost saving then that would be a good idea.

Its like OB now offer a 3 way battery monitor which utilises thier mate . These guys will always try to keep there gear proprietory .

I think Midnite Solar are looking at offering there new CC with a no display option. Makes sense as long as the savings are good when you need a second unit.

I have a SW3024E with builtin display some 60ft from my dwelling my only option is to double up on a second display if I want remote access.The OB mate and XW negate this wastefulness .

For instance a company might have several remote locations using say OB VFX units . The service engineer can have one mate to service and alter many FX units. The company saves on having several Mates.

People like OB, X, Magnum and MNS have gone a long way to provide numerous bits of kit to make installations safe code compliant neat etc and thats just it. Its pieces of kit, you get to choose what you want, you assemble your own package or your installer does to your needs.

IMHO. PS Dont take the Mdnite CC display option as gospel my memory has failings, but Im sure read it some time on there site

Robin Gudgel · December 2008

Re: How much of those XW-System components do I really need?

To the fellow that suggested that if it says "Solar" it is too expensive.... that just isn't true. You cannot go to Home Depot and buy DC breakers. You cannot get an AC bypass switch. You cannot get one box that has all the different circuits going on like PV in, charge control out, battery plus and minus, Inverter plus and minus, AC input, AC output auxilliary AC and DC circuits. They just don't have this type of equipment available. They do have 120/240VAC boxes and breakers though. We recommoned using the MidNite XW E-Panel when a single XW inverter is planned, but if there is a chance you will want to add a second XW inverter, then use the Xantrex distribution panel. You will spend an additional $500 though per inverter. We do not require any soft flexible cables as was described above since our inverter connections use thick tin plated copper busbars. I really like the "Polar wire" that Xantrex used in their distribution system though. It is not UL listed so it would cost a small fortune for us to get it approved to use it in our regular E-Panels. We can support more than one charge controller with ease on our XW E-Panel. You can check out the capabilities in the instruction manual on our website www.midnitesolar.com We use the industry standard din rail mount breakers as well as the small panel mount breakers. These are available from 1 to 80 amps. I don't think the larger and more expensive Xantrex breakers offer this kind of flexibility. We also offer two different DC-GFP's for those that choose not to use the XW controller. Communication between a controller and inverter is of little benefit since the job of the controller is to dump power into the batteries and the job of the inverter is to drain the batteries. We do think we wil be able to communicate with the Xantrex network with our Classic controller though, but not the OutBack network. We will also be able to communicate with the Magnum network. Our internal network will be open architecture so anyone will have the capability to communicate with our systems. The Classic has RS232, USB and Eathernet, so I'm sure at least one of those can be used to communicate with most anything if required. We will be offering the Classic without the display as was previously mentioned. Those will normally be used for remote telcom sites or for multiple controller systems. We will be adding links to our website showing real live data of beta sites in the very near future, so check it out.

System2 · December 2008

Re: How much of those XW-System components do I really need?

The question was "How much of those components do I really need?". "Need", not "want".

Clearly there are advantages to some extras like prewired panels, but they aren't required to make a solar system work. They may or may not be worth the price, especially if you're living off grid and know enough to do your own work.

The solar meters look great, but even the people who understand them usually don't do the routine calibration needed to keep them accurate. Batteries change capacity for many reasons such as temperature, cycles, depths and rates of charge and discharge, age, and equalization.

It's great that there are options for everyone. Robin and others supply panels with DC circuit breakers that you can't get from Home Depot. Or you can choose to use DC fuses from any auto parts store. Those who want to save time can, and those who want to save money can do that, too.

Ana Douglas
http://www.verdenova.com

halfcrazy · December 2008

Re: How much of those XW-System components do I really need?

there is always the issue of code compliance when you use stuff that isnt meant for the job. If there where ever a fire or something and you have wires hanging and incorect breakers you think they are going to pay?

niel · December 2008

Re: How much of those XW-System components do I really need?

aj164,
there seems to be a semantics issue going on here. i hope this can clarify it somewhat. you don't actually need anything just as none of us technically need solar, but if you get the xw system it is assumed that you want and need it for yourself and the assorted items to make it safe and legal. we can't really say what it is one wants, but all is good if it's legal and safe. if the op wants to clarify the questioning further, it may help many here to better answer your real doubts about the subject matter to allow you to be able to decide what it is you think you need. i'm going to stop here before i get confused.:p

aj164 · December 2008

Re: How much of those XW-System components do I really need?

Many thanks to everyone for all the useful input!

The intent of my original question was to find out how others are configuring the XW and what components are essential. I also wanted to know what you think of the 3rd-party components, in case they might be worth the savings or even preferred over the originals.

-AJ

How much of those XW-System components do I really need?

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